AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Ranzou]

20 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

How do you deal with Giants?

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/29015-aos-3-nighthaunt-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=585414

Also - refreshed photos.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Ranzou

[EnixLHQ]

4 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Pretty sure this is the old book - haven’t watched it though. He also is the guy who took a Nagash NH list to the top 8 at LVO. 

It's the old book. Still great to see, and I'm looking forward to what Nate does with the new rules.

[Sception]

On 5/25/2022 at 10:03 PM, Rors said:

It does seem goofy. I guess if you need to justify it in your mind thematically, being on horseback puts you further back and they're flying over the units so if their weapons are the same length as grimghast the loose an inch due to having to reach further to get passed their own horses?

This is a pretty common issue with mounted units & heroes  and yeah this seems to be the conceptual justification for it.

[Evil Bob]

15 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

How do you deal with Giants?

I had a game against them and my army was crushed completely. He went first claiming 3 objectives. In my turn I managed to kill 3 man eaters and did basically nothing to his mega-gargants but do did he to my units. He got first again in the second battle round and destroyed 3 out of 4 of my units (not counting heroes and black coach). Basically each time his gargant attacked it was one unit dead on my side. The game was set. I could do nothing at this point. His gargants were all close to max health.

Other than the Black Coach what did you bring? What Nighthaunt do you own that could be brought?

So he had a three baby giant unit and three big ones?

[Rors]

I think the most viable tactic again giants is basically the same no matter what army you bring because their strategy is the same no matter who they face.

Giants move onto the objectives and you either clear enough of them off by turn 3 or you're too far behind on points.

With NH I'd mass charge everything into one giant at a time and focus of bring one down a turn if you can. Keep at least one unit aside for deepstrike so if they move a giant over to help the one you're murdering, you can deepstrike onto the objective they left behind.

It's a pure damage check army that objective camps so focus on one objective at a time and you'll be ahead by turn 5. If you spread out your damage they'll be too far ahead on points by the time you start dropping them.

[dmorley21]

16 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

How do you deal with Giants?

I had a game against them and my army was crushed completely. He went first claiming 3 objectives. In my turn I managed to kill 3 man eaters and did basically nothing to his mega-gargants but do did he to my units. He got first again in the second battle round and destroyed 3 out of 4 of my units (not counting heroes and black coach). Basically each time his gargant attacked it was one unit dead on my side. The game was set. I could do nothing at this point. His gargants were all close to max health.

My buddy who plays Sons won’t play them against new NH because he’s so sure that the ghosts will roll his giants. Gotta say that I agree… no reason you shouldn’t be able to lift a mega a turn. 

16 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Any of you folks getting games in able to speak to our offensive output?

Does auto wound on 6s to hit make a meaningful impact? Should you aim for more -save WoT even when you have the option for strikes-last due to losing MW output?

Offensive output is great on your turn when you get multi-charges. You want to fish for the -1 saves generally and the others will really depend on the combat and context. 
 

I’ve played against Fyreslayers, Beastclaw Raiders, Nighthaunt, and Daughters so far. 

1 hour ago, Rors said:

I think the most viable tactic again giants is basically the same no matter what army you bring because their strategy is the same no matter who they face.

Giants move onto the objectives and you either clear enough of them off by turn 3 or you're too far behind on points.

With NH I'd mass charge everything into one giant at a time and focus of bring one down a turn if you can. Keep at least one unit aside for deepstrike so if they move a giant over to help the one you're murdering, you can deepstrike onto the objective they left behind.

It's a pure damage check army that objective camps so focus on one objective at a time and you'll be ahead by turn 5. If you spread out your damage they'll be too far ahead on points by the time you start dropping them.

Most of this is correct, but Sons can be played offensively as well. Their charges hurt with their mortals and if they bring Kragnos around they’re living for those charges. Grieving Legion would be an offensive Sons player’s worst nightmare.

[Neck-Romantic]

Definitely take a Cruciator or two.

 

Ive been toying with the idea of mass SD BGR's with multiple Torments. 6/12/18/24 models restored per turn (both you and your opponent's) is pretty bonkers.

[Ranzou]

Also - don't forget. They can MOVE over your units, but can't charge.

If you go first - use your hexwraiths for 24" wall of bodies and all other army as backbone. You can spread your army so there will be no room for 110mm bases +3" all around. If they can't finish their move - they can't move, and they can't charge over your models.

If you go second - you have chances for double turn and you definitely protected from it against you.

[lare2]

Quick question, if Lady O fails to fob off a wound to her SH entourage, can she then roll her ward save? I believe not but my friend, who also runs NH, believes she can. 

[Ranzou]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

Quick question, if Lady O fails to fob off a wound to her SH entourage, can she then roll her ward save? I believe not but my friend, who also runs NH, believes she can. 

*disregard this, I cannot read*

Edited June 10, 2022 by Ranzou

[Benlisted]

2 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

Why no? 

You get your wound.

You roll 3+.

Failed.

Wound is still with you.

After you finish with failed saves - you roll your wards for them.

Wounds on 3+ are transferred from your wound pool to SH.

This 3+ is neither ward save no prevent from it.

The Host passing wound rules specifically prohibit any wards on either unit, passer or receiver.

[dmorley21]

28 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Quick question, if Lady O fails to fob off a wound to her SH entourage, can she then roll her ward save? I believe not but my friend, who also runs NH, believes she can. 

Nope. They cleaned it up so you only get the bodyguard save or the Ward save, not both. 

[Ranzou]

9 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Nope. They cleaned it up so you only get the bodyguard save or the Ward save, not both. 

Reread rule. Truth is yours. Thiss roll is INSTEAD of ward roll.

[lare2]

Great - thanks all. It's great that the SH warscroll is so clear but I hate the ambiguity around bodyguard rolls. They should really have it in the core rules as a lot of armies now have it. 

[Aeryenn]

10 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

Other than the Black Coach what did you bring? What Nighthaunt do you own that could be brought?

So he had a three baby giant unit and three big ones?

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

- Procession: Emerald Host

- Grand Strategy:

- Triumphs:

 

Leaders

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (340)

- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage

Krulghast Cruciator (150)

- General

- Command Trait: Hatred of the Living

- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Guardian of Souls (150)

Spirit Torment (115)

- Artefact: Lightshard of the Harvest Moon

 

Battleline

10 x Chainrasps (110)

10 x Chainrasps (110)

10 x Grimghast Reapers (165)

 

Units

10 x Bladegheist Revenants (175)

10 x Bladegheist Revenants (175)

2 x Chainghasts (95)

 

Behemoths

Black Coach (335)

 

Endless Spells & Invocations

Chronomantic Cogs (45)

 

Total: 1965 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 0 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 89

Drops: 11

It was sth like this. He did bring 3 small and 3 large gargants. First turn he moved into the objectives. In my turn I charged 3 small ones with reapers and 10 bladegheists. This and shooting killed them off. Round 2 it was turn 1 for gargants again. He basically charged both my bladegheists and reapers with his mega-gargants. That killed them off and the game was set. What else do I have? Reikenor, executioner , 20 more rasps, second spirit torment and Knight on a horse. No spirit hosts (which I want to buy soon). Banahees and harridans still in the box to be assembled.

[Ranzou]

49 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

What else do I have?

Try to use more rasps - 20 of them with all buffs and debuffs are enough to be good screen.

Also - executioner or hero with pending is stable shademist-like debuff.

[Warbossironteef]

6 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

- Procession: Emerald Host

- Grand Strategy:

- Triumphs:

 

Leaders

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (340)

- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage

Krulghast Cruciator (150)

- General

- Command Trait: Hatred of the Living

- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Guardian of Souls (150)

Spirit Torment (115)

- Artefact: Lightshard of the Harvest Moon

 

Battleline

10 x Chainrasps (110)

10 x Chainrasps (110)

10 x Grimghast Reapers (165)

 

Units

10 x Bladegheist Revenants (175)

10 x Bladegheist Revenants (175)

2 x Chainghasts (95)

 

Behemoths

Black Coach (335)

 

Endless Spells & Invocations

Chronomantic Cogs (45)

 

Total: 1965 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 0 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 89

Drops: 11

It was sth like this. He did bring 3 small and 3 large gargants. First turn he moved into the objectives. In my turn I charged 3 small ones with reapers and 10 bladegheists. This and shooting killed them off. Round 2 it was turn 1 for gargants again. He basically charged both my bladegheists and reapers with his mega-gargants. That killed them off and the game was set. What else do I have? Reikenor, executioner , 20 more rasps, second spirit torment and Knight on a horse. No spirit hosts (which I want to buy soon). Banahees and harridans still in the box to be assembled.

I know you are using the models you own but this is why I think a unit of 20 or 30 GG or two units of 20xGG is so important. IMO you either go full MSU, no coach, or you bring at least one unit of 20xGG. That unit can act as an anvil/hammer. You're army really lacks an actual hammer unit and it doesn't have enough BG/Harridan MSU to be threats. 

Just my opinion, but it seems like your list kind of falls in between the defensive blocks of dudes list and the MSU spam lists. I think that's what's so hard about running both Lady O and the Black Coach. They are great all around utility pieces, but if you bring both, your army may not have either enough bodies or enough output.

[Evil Bob]

Thank you Aeryenn. It is going to take time to write this up so the response won’t be until tonight (ET), probably really late.

[Bayul]

10 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

10 x Grimghast Reapers (165)

Aren't they 160 Points?

[EnixLHQ]

My guide will be temporarily offline while I get to rewriting it. Apologies in advance for anyone who wanted to read the old data, but hang tight and a new version will be available soon.

[Aeryenn]

5 hours ago, Bayul said:

Aren't they 160 Points?

I used Warscroll Builder but indeed new battletome says 160! Either it's a mistake in the WB or they've already updated their cost.

[Aeryenn]

10 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

I know you are using the models you own but this is why I think a unit of 20 or 30 GG or two units of 20xGG is so important. IMO you either go full MSU, no coach, or you bring at least one unit of 20xGG. That unit can act as an anvil/hammer. You're army really lacks an actual hammer unit and it doesn't have enough BG/Harridan MSU to be threats. 

Just my opinion, but it seems like your list kind of falls in between the defensive blocks of dudes list and the MSU spam lists. I think that's what's so hard about running both Lady O and the Black Coach. They are great all around utility pieces, but if you bring both, your army may not have either enough bodies or enough output.

Thanks for this support. I started thinking about running something bigger with 20 models but still was afraid to fail a charge with that unit.

You surprised me with the second part (either Olynder or Coach) but you might be right. Olynder played really well in both of my games with the new battletome. My first game was against Fyreslayers btw and it went pretty well. Dwarfs weren't able to finish off my units thanks to Olynder/ GoS/ Torment and Soul Cage combined with Fight Last Effect of Waves of Terror was devastating for his troops. We ended with a draw just because the shop was closing but I'm pretty sure I would have won if we played full 5 rounds.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Aeryenn

[lare2]

So now that the book's been out for a while, what are people's standard lists looking like now? What are you tweaking? For me, it's the below:

 - Army Faction: Nighthaunt
     - Subfaction: The Emerald Host
     - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
     - Triumph: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Lady Olynder (340)*
     - Spells: Shademist
Guardian of Souls (150)***
     - General
     - Command Traits: Master of Magic
     - Chill Blade
     - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
     - Spells: Seal of Shyish
Spirit Torment (115)***
Krulghast Cruciator (150)***
     - Artefacts of Power: Pendant of the Fell Wind
BATTLELINE
Chainrasps (110)*
Chainrasps (110)*
Hexwraiths (160)*
Hexwraiths (160)*
Grimghast Reapers (320)**
     - Extoller of Shyish
Spirit Hosts (125)**
Spirit Hosts (125)**
OTHER
Chainghasts (95)***
CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands
***Warlord
TOTAL POINTS: 1960/2000

The two rasp units generally look to deepstrike on midtable objectives, scoring points and serving as a screen. If they live, they'll add to wave of terror. All heroes sit with the SH and Chainghasts behind the blob of 20. These move forward as one.

Inevitably the GG, ST and Chainghasts split off from the pack to fight. Love 20 - if they kill what they're after then great. If not, they will act as an anvil, holding something up. Fought Sylvaneth the other night and 6 Kurnoth got them down to 1 model. Next turn, pretty much all of them are back. Although I never killed the Kurnoth, this meant they (and a couple of other units supporting them) were completely tied up most of the game. Have been considering 30 mind. 

Lady O and her entourage I find linger midtable, buffing, debuffing and fighting. This little death star can really pack a punch, even the GoS. With all heroes and the SH, that's 5 WoTs and can really cripple the enemy. I still want to put SoS and Shademist on the GG but this can be harder late in game with them pealing away to attack something. For this though, I'm considering just going to 1x3 SH. I find that, at most, I only ever really lose 3 SH and it's late in the game. I figure at that point maybe the heroes can start to look after themselves. 

Love Hex. They're great and no one seems to expect them. I start by putting a unit in each bottom corner of my deployment and just watch what my opponent is doing. With the sylvaneth game the other night, he'd left a 5 model unit on an objective in his home terf. I moved 30" with one unit to join the other 1st turn, 2nd turn - bam! 10 Hex in his face! Took the objective and burnt it to the ground (mission objective... forget which one). Against DoK, he thought he was sitting comfortable on an objective with the Shadow Queen when, suddenly - bam! 10 Hex from nowhere appear, taking the objective. They are just so good at stealing objectives. Shame the models are so dated. 

Anywho, that's generally where I'm at. 

[EnixLHQ]

11 hours ago, lare2 said:

So now that the book's been out for a while, what are people's standard lists looking like now? What are you tweaking? For me, it's the below:

 - Army Faction: Nighthaunt
     - Subfaction: The Emerald Host
     - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
     - Triumph: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Lady Olynder (340)*
     - Spells: Shademist
Guardian of Souls (150)***
     - General
     - Command Traits: Master of Magic
     - Chill Blade
     - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
     - Spells: Seal of Shyish
Spirit Torment (115)***
Krulghast Cruciator (150)***
     - Artefacts of Power: Pendant of the Fell Wind
BATTLELINE
Chainrasps (110)*
Chainrasps (110)*
Hexwraiths (160)*
Hexwraiths (160)*
Grimghast Reapers (320)**
     - Extoller of Shyish
Spirit Hosts (125)**
Spirit Hosts (125)**
OTHER
Chainghasts (95)***
CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands
***Warlord
TOTAL POINTS: 1960/2000

The two rasp units generally look to deepstrike on midtable objectives, scoring points and serving as a screen. If they live, they'll add to wave of terror. All heroes sit with the SH and Chainghasts behind the blob of 20. These move forward as one.

Inevitably the GG, ST and Chainghasts split off from the pack to fight. Love 20 - if they kill what they're after then great. If not, they will act as an anvil, holding something up. Fought Sylvaneth the other night and 6 Kurnoth got them down to 1 model. Next turn, pretty much all of them are back. Although I never killed the Kurnoth, this meant they (and a couple of other units supporting them) were completely tied up most of the game. Have been considering 30 mind. 

Lady O and her entourage I find linger midtable, buffing, debuffing and fighting. This little death star can really pack a punch, even the GoS. With all heroes and the SH, that's 5 WoTs and can really cripple the enemy. I still want to put SoS and Shademist on the GG but this can be harder late in game with them pealing away to attack something. For this though, I'm considering just going to 1x3 SH. I find that, at most, I only ever really lose 3 SH and it's late in the game. I figure at that point maybe the heroes can start to look after themselves. 

Love Hex. They're great and no one seems to expect them. I start by putting a unit in each bottom corner of my deployment and just watch what my opponent is doing. With the sylvaneth game the other night, he'd left a 5 model unit on an objective in his home terf. I moved 30" with one unit to join the other 1st turn, 2nd turn - bam! 10 Hex in his face! Took the objective and burnt it to the ground (mission objective... forget which one). Against DoK, he thought he was sitting comfortable on an objective with the Shadow Queen when, suddenly - bam! 10 Hex from nowhere appear, taking the objective. They are just so good at stealing objectives. Shame the models are so dated. 

Anywho, that's generally where I'm at. 

With testing a few deployment strategies and tactical styles, I'm finding that a lot more variety is viable now. I don't think we necessarily have many "must have" units anymore, which is great. It's all about what you want to accomplish and how to execute it.

All in all I think you can throw together just about anything and do well, so long as you're not all over the place with the unit roles and your goals.

Edited June 11, 2022 by EnixLHQ

[Evil Bob]

@Aerynn

Force List:

Spoiler

Hero

• Lady Orlynder w/ Spell: Seal of Shyish
• Krulghast Cruciator (General) w/Relic: Arcane Tome, Command Trait: Master of Magic, Spell: Soul Cage
• Reikenor the Grimhailer w/ Spell: Lifestealer
• Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed w/Relic: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline

• 20x Chainwrasps
• 10x Chainwrasps
• 10x Grimghast Reapers
• 3x Spirit Host
• 3x Spirit Host

Other

• 10x Bladegheist Revenants
• 10x Bladegheist Revenants

Endless Spells

• 65 Soulsnare Shackles

Total 1990

Force Composition Notes:

Spoiler

1. KoSoES can be swapped out for Guardian of Souls & Burning Head Endless Spell.
2. Spirit Host can be swapped out for a Chainwrasp Unit if more damage is desired.
3. Hunter of the Heartlands for up to three infantry units BGs, GR.
4. Bladeghiests can be combined into one unit. Depends on what style of attrition or max-damage is preferred.

Strategy:

Spoiler

1. Small Chainwrasp unit as a sacrificial screen. A CP on an advance move might be needed.
2. Soulsnare Shackles to limit how many giants can charge in. Wizard needs to be on a flank.
3. The Grimhailer can hurt himself for a solid cast on Lifestealer and get it back. Also good for making sure a critical Endless Spell gets off.
4. All Hero’s need to fight (at some point) except the Krulghast Cruciator.

Things to keep in mind (because I forget them):

Spoiler

1. Some SoB players accidentally stack Saves with All Out Defense & Finest Hour. It is one or the other applied against cumulative Rend and Stun effects.
2. To Wound Rolls can’t be modified by more than +1/-1.