AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[mmimzie]

New book looks really cool, but it lacks punch really baddly.

The best damage as has been sort of mentioned here is Dreadscythe Harridans, but i wouldn't take them for the most part.  Being on 32s with a 1" range is a a completive death sentence with out some sort of crazy attack profile, and these struggle to match up damage (output wise) with other similar units from other armies. 

I do believer reapers or chainrasp will be the go to options for your hammer units.  In units of 20. One of the key things that has been similar with AoS is you want to really smash whatever you are fighting, and to do that you need want to gets unit killing levels of damage when you fight, so that enemy can't do thier thier back at you. 

The reason i say these two units are key is not only due to thier ability to attack in 2 ranks, but also because they buff very nicely off the lightshard. 

I think in a way this army will play A LOT like deepkin players say there army plays (this isn't really the case for reason i won't get into).  The idea is you want to soften the enemy army and position for that perfect turn of attacks.  This means getting charges, and getting all the charge buffs off, and then when that moment happens you pop the light shards. 

For this battle plan i think most armies will aim to take either 2 units of 20 chainrasp or 2 units of 20 reapers. In the case of rasp you might likely take 3 of said units.  From there I think you will aim to fill with support units and tarpit units. 

 From here you will pick your favorite to hit and to wound buffs and support units that will help you manuever for your big turn.

Maybe i pigeon hole the army too much, but it just seems to really lack important punch, with out also being super durable to make up for it. So it really feels line another finese deepkin style army, but you are only really going for one good turn. 

Units of note. For MSU charging units i vote hexwraiths. The extra d3 mortal wounds will be great, and 3 units charging a hero could be game winning. Also they are a nice long unit that can charge in such a way as to screen your other units that are in melee.  They also can turn 1 movement deny your opponent, even easier with that last minute unit switch around deal.  I think most nighthaunt games will be won and lost off hexwraith play. 

[EnixLHQ]

Unpopular opinion incoming, but I like that we have no murder hobo units. That's not interesting play to me and is not what the Nighthaunt are about. Their lore is terror, curses, waves of ghostly mass that chill the air, all while surrounded by ever-blooming gravethorn. And that's what we got in spades with this new book.

Having a killy unit would not only make it an auto-pick in every list, but it would also promote lazy tactics and gatekeeping. Just like how people still insist every army (or just the good ones) are hammer and anvil. It's not true, but I won't knock that it works for most people.

We're still a tactically-driven army, with freshly gifted mobility that's gottdam insane.

I can't wait to line up two or three charges to an enemy unit and watch my opponent put their head in their hands as the debuffs pile up. (And then whiff all the die rolls...)

[mmimzie]

I mean i don't disagree with thats how they should feel, and how this book sets them up to play. Again it's very deepkin. Very finesse. 

You will however, want a way to actualy kill stuff once you have put whatever buffs and debuffs in play, and the book only really offers you 3 ways to get that job done. 

I think, seeing as how its been sort of figured out the ways to kill stuff, energy might better be suited shifting the conversation to how other units will help support.

I think the coach makes a great teleporty objective grabber, and also can help with be a unit for charges in a pinch as it's fast and can be where you need. Will really shine by killing off key support heros because it can set up anywhere out side of 9 or it can move with a run to get it's shooting attack off. Because of this i might argue for using the soulreach grasp on the model because it will let you better target down said heros or pick off a unit or two to turn your snipe power on. Could be alittle to expensive for this role.

The knight of shroud of steed seems alittle under valued. The way i see the model is he basically attaches to a unit and lets you activate with  him and your other killy unit at the same time. Affectively giving the unit 5 more damage 2 attacks on a small foot print (that's basicly 3-5 models worth of attacks) plus a 2nd charging unit for proc charge abilities. Secret tech for this model is that potentially you can have a unit fight that isn't within 3" of an enemy unit. So long as it'd 3" out it can then pile in and do it's attacks. This isn't so good for multi-rank fighter units, but can let you sneak in more safe attackers.

Dreadblade another fast one and another model great for taking the lightshard. This time however, it's because they can teleport anywhere with out using a CP. So they can always be where you want them, on top of thier speed. Also they can be mvps for late game objectives.  This also make a good defensive option as it lets you get off a 2nd discorporate or if working with a knight a shroud could echo his all out attack command, redeploy, or unleash hell.

Spirit host. If you go the lightshard route a 3+ sort of ward will be amazing for keep some of these heros alive. If you have a little hero ball, the spirit host can soak for the whole squad. 

Lastly, my favorite i think are the hexwraiths.  The super move and the mortal wounds on the charge on a relatively cheap platform is great.  These will be your MSU filler units and they will be key for victory. Similar to the black coach they can multicharge support heros to kill them out right. 

[Rors]

 On another note, I think there's probably a lot of fun to be had using KoS, Boatboo and dreadblades. They can run around and do their own thing, then boatboo can teleport himself and the KoS to 9 away from a target and the dreadblades teleport themselves. KoS uses a command to reroll charges and the deadblades can copy it for free. You could really surprise an opponent and repeat the trick on a new target each turn. Pick off characters or flip it so your 'weak' flank is suddenly doing a pile on to a unit they thought was safe. You opponent will be forced to castle or let you constantly bully anything left exposed. In a game where you have to reach out and take objectives this seems like a strong trick to me. You could take a KoS, boatboo, and four dreadblades for a hypermobile psudo deathstar style approach that always projects power where you need it. The damage isn't enough to just throw it at anything but odds are you'll be pulling off enough charges to threaten any basic block or character anywhere on the board.

I think outside of janky combos the dreadblades free copy the generals command is amazing. Even getting multiple 5+ wards is strong.

[lare2]

Quick question, do any of our units include command models? Therefore, can they give command abilities? Normally a warscroll would say something like 'this unit is lead by...' Ours just says stuff like '1 model can be x'. Thanks in advance. 

[Ranzou]

4 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Quick question, do any of our units include command models? Therefore, can they give command abilities? Normally a warscroll would say something like 'this unit is lead by...' Ours just says stuff like '1 model can be x'. Thanks in advance. 

Elites don't have commands, otherwise unit leader is command model. Example - hexwraiths and reapers have leader, bladegheists and hosts are elites and they don't have command models.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Ranzou

[lare2]

5 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

Elites don't have commands, otherwise unit leader is command model.

Cheers Ranzou. I've only just noticed that elite tag on warscrolls... that's what you get for scanning. 

[stato]

On 5/3/2022 at 2:29 PM, lare2 said:

..

On a related note, disappointed to see there's only 1 crone allowed per 10. My units are now illegal... fortunately I've a number of unbuilt spares. 

This is really annoying. I thought they had moved away from this annoyance after ****** up the initial kharadron release unit configuration.

[That Guy]

17 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

The "which unit to use" problem for me happen mostly when I try to build a Emerald Host list, as it don't favor a particular unit. Scarlet doom make Bladegheist the best hammer. If you are going Quicksilver you will want at least 2 Harridan units to make use of the effect. For grieving legion I would argue that it probably favor the Reapers just to have another 20 model unit that don't waste attacks due to the unit size. Now when you get to Emerald what do you favor? All the 3 of them seen to have a similar damage output, with some minor variations depending on the enemy unit save/model count for their buffs.

So when picking a more general subfaction you have to make a plan for yourself. Think to yourself, what do the other subfactions offer and how would i have to play them in order to maximize on their pro’s. If you want to spam Bladegheist, you might as well just go Scarlet Doom. Same for harridans with quicksilver dead(although this one is more tricky since it’s so darn specific). Going with massive horde units like 20-30 mans means grieving legion would’ve probably been the better choice.
 

So what does a generic subfaction like emerald host offer? Several things, since it’s subfaction rules always trigger, no matter what you take it will be useful. Although taking too much of 1 unit means another subfaction would’ve probably been the better choice. You probably already see at this point what the value of this subfaction is. It’s a mixed list of different units in which you don’t necessarily go all in towards 1 side. The jack of all trades so to say. Play of the strengths of many of the different units together and make them play of each other.

Another thing to look at are units that are not specially favoured by the other subfactions. These would be:

All heroes
Hexwraiths (my favorite in this subfaction)
Craventhrone Guard 
Glaivewraiths
Myrmourn Banshees
Chainghasts
Spirit Hosts
Black Coach
Mourngul

The rest of units either work great in big units, or have all in potential when it comes to their specific subfaction.

Personally i like the potential of this subfaction. Our many heroes allow us for a crazzyyyyy amount of different plans within this subfaction or others. The Emerald Host just allows for the most varied units list. 

What i would enjoy doing in this subfaction is going with at least 3 hexwraiths units. Lady O. and a Black coach. Perhaps go from there into some death by a thousand cuts units, or units to amplify WoT procs. Together with the subfaction rules that would just create a great mortal wound output together with a solid anti chaff base. You could toss in kurdoss, some harridans and craventhrone and let them synergize. You could play Awlrach and a Dreadblade and echo teleport shenanigans. Our heroes offer us a toolbox that i think a lot of people still need to ground with. It’s going to be amazing. I hope this gives you some ideas for the Emerald Host or Nighthaunt in general. Cheers.
 

[Vastus]

39 minutes ago, That Guy said:

So when picking a more general subfaction you have to make a plan for yourself. Think to yourself, what do the other subfactions offer and how would i have to play them in order to maximize on their pro’s. If you want to spam Bladegheist, you might as well just go Scarlet Doom. Same for harridans with quicksilver dead(although this one is more tricky since it’s so darn specific). Going with massive horde units like 20-30 mans means grieving legion would’ve probably been the better choice.
 

I feel that's somewhat flawed logic. Just because another subfaction is specific to that unit, does not necessarily mean you get more value from it. Quicksilver Dead for example is rather niche and even if I'm using a boatload of Harridans I'd probably still go Emerald Host to pressure high value targets.

You may also be bringing them for other synergies. For example, the Harridan's abilities are geared towards weakening and grinding the opponent down. Couple this with some healing/resurrection, and it synergizes very nicely with the Emerald Host ability which benefits from drawing a game out longer. In short: it still depends on what role the subfaction fulfills, and what role the unit is supposed to fulfill.

Anyway, I do agree with Hexwraiths and Olynder seeming pretty strong. If you factor in the MW on charge, Hexwraiths are not too far off of other units in potential output, and they can easily get all their models into combat with units of 5. They also benefit more from Olynder's resurrect and are extremely good at playing the objective game.

Emerald Host is probably my go-to subfaction unless you really, really want to spam the hell out of Bladegheists. Even then, unless you run more than 30, Emerald Host may still get more value anyway because you can choose priority targets for it whereas Bladegheists can be screened.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Vastus

[Rors]

I think quick silver is probably the weakest subfaction because harridans are probably our weakest combat option (ignoring glaives). Their output is best against units with a 6+ save and those units tend to not be priority targets, also, even though they're best against 6+, the nature of it being against a bad save means everything else is still good against those units too, where as harridans drop off sharply against a 2+ save. We're also in an edition where everyone has access to all out defense so really, they're only good against no save units. The subfaction really doesn't help because if you're not getting through armor who cares about wards. I guess they have merit against savage orks but that's way too niche. 

I can see play in all the others.

Spamming bladegeist either in big blocks with all the defensive buff or in MSU is definitely powerful.

With so many teleports and access to heals, someone will build a competitive list that just denies your opponent from ever leaving their deployment zone.

Emerald host is personally my favorite. You can tech into it and look to assassinate heroes or just build whatever you want as a strong list and the faction bonus can still be really impactful without you building around it at all. It's that versatility that I like. All the other factions encourage a play-style, Emerald Host lists can be anything, although obviously it leans you towards not playing into the style of the other subfactions. Although I think Emerald host could possibly be a better home for harridans than quicksilver because ensuring you have that chip damage on units is probably more empowering to them than ignoring wards.

 

That being said as a side note, I just don't rate harridans in this book. They're not bad as such, just not as good as the other options. The only circumstance where they come out ahead is one where you're already slaughtering expendable models, so you give up on effectiveness in most combats to win-more against expendable chaff.    

[The_Dudemeister]

Harridans deal more damage per model than Reapers even against 3+ save targets. Both unbuffed and with their respective buffs. On any save worse than 3+ they deal dramatically more damage actually. In reinforced units and against units with a bigger footprint where the 2" range comes into play, the damage output in total reverses naturally.

 

Because Harridans work so well against Monsters and elites while Reapers against hordes, I see them working really well together in an army. For the first time we have an actual reason to run both in a list with distinct roles. And I fully expect Reapers+Harridans to be one successful core of a list that itself will be distinct with lists spamming Bladegheists as Scarlet Doom instead. Both these builds heavily featuring Hexwraiths for speed.

[Rachmani]

I‘ve also come to the conclusion that hexwraith might be the glue that keeps our units together.

Which, in turn, baffles me, as their sculpts are just *that* ugly.

I had hopes that the glaives would fill that role, but it doesn’t look like it. Meh.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Rachmani

[Rors]

34 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Harridans deal more damage per model than Reapers even against 3+ save targets. Both unbuffed and with their respective buffs. On any save worse than 3+ they deal dramatically more damage actually. In reinforced units and against units with a bigger footprint where the 2" range comes into play, the damage output in total reverses naturally.

 

Because Harridans work so well against Monsters and elites while Reapers against hordes, I see them working really well together in an army. For the first time we have an actual reason to run both in a list with distinct roles. And I fully expect Reapers+Harridans to be one successful core of a list that itself will be distinct with lists spamming Bladegheists as Scarlet Doom instead. Both these builds heavily featuring Hexwraiths for speed.

I had forgotten about reapers but someone did some excellent math earlier. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit#gid=911596184

Harridans are dealing 0.028 wounds per point out against a 3+ save where reapers are doing 0.027, units with less saves tend to have more models so that favors reapers in that regard although damage per points gets better with less save in raw stats in favor of harridans.

That being said, bladegeist are doing 0.029 and banshees are doing 0.040 against a 3+ save.

If you look across the stats there is always a better option than harridans, unless you're fighting something with no save or a 6+. Even against a 6+ harridans are only better if the opponent doesn't use all out defense or mystic shield.

The problem there is that low save units aren't a problem to kill, so even if harridan do it better, your other units will do it just fine. Investing points into a unit that excellent at killing expendable chaff just deprives you points that could be used to kill stuff that harridans can't deal with. Bladegeist will smash a unit of goblins just fine and can also threaten units with a decent save.. harridans can't really make that boast.

But yeah, reapers aren't great either by comparison with the rest of the book. I'd put glaives, reapers and harridans in the 'fun' bucket when considering list design.

Against very specific match ups like savage whaagh or other nighthaunt (because ethereal completely changes the calculations) there could be room for harridans. Outside of that, I think the maths from that link shows that they are weaker as an option in 99% of the match ups you'll have. 

As an afterthought and to be balanced: Pink Horrors are a really powerful unit that shows up in competitive lists and would be a great target for Harridans to munch through. That said, I still think it's too niche to be a competitive choice if you were heading into a tournament hoping to win all your matches. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Rors
afterthought

[That Guy]

Excellent feedback and replies everyone. I might’ve put the notion that it’s only good to run their specific subfactions if you run a lot of a specific unit. That was not the intent, in fact it might turn out that running a bunch of bladegheist together with a bunch of other units inside the Emerald host might just be the better option for example. I agree that harridans don’t feel the strongest in comparison to other units in this book. It is probably best to run them in an emerald host subfaction if you want to run many of them and just have hexwraiths as battleline. And/Or field Kurdoss with some craventhrone since they actually have some nice synergy with the harridans. They can soften up targets and trigger the harridans buff. Also don’t forget that harridans cause a -1 to wound aura when they charge. I definitely see value in running them in emerald host. Quicksilver Dead will not be played a lot i’m afraid. Against some armies it will be glorious and against some, you fully waste your subfaction rules. 

Can’t wait for the Mourngul rules, i plan to test out the mourngul in it’s current state except i replace the warscroll frightful touch with the new one and let ethereal work as the new way too. I want to test him out with a Krulghast and also with Awlrach when he releases. 

[Rachmani]

I‘d firmly ignore the banshees as hammers. They‘re far too easily killed.

I do however think they could be great to distract, soak up a good bit of damage (and die) in the process - of, if ignored, will do a good bit of damage next to our fighting units.

But all in all it‘s not just about how hard you it, but also how much of a beating you can endure. And even with msu I think we need some fix point on the battlefield.

20 Bladegheist units for example.

[lare2]

Been looking at Emerald Host myself and came up with the following, which coincidentally runs Dreadscythe:

Lady O: Soul Cage – 340 

GoS: General, MoM; Midnight Tome, Spectral Tether – 150 

Krulghast – 150 

Chainrasp x30 – 330 

Chainrasp x10 – 110

Chainrasp x10 – 110

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Dreadscythe x10 – 160 

Dreadscythe x10 – 160 

Terminexus: 85

The list's mainly centred on Lady O and the GoS, who'll deepstrike in. She'll shoot d6 mortals, he'll autocast Terminexus to d3 mortals to a lot of units, and then Emerald that'll cause d3 mortals to d3+1 units. Swingy but if it spikes then it will be hilarious and savage all those little heroes. 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by lare2

[Arzalyn]

59 minutes ago, Rors said:

But yeah, reapers aren't great either by comparison with the rest of the book. I'd put glaives, reapers and harridans in the 'fun' bucket when considering list design.

I think the selling point of the Reapers will be the 2" range. They are our only unit that don't loose output while above MSU and also work well with screens/other units nearby. I think they will have a place in lists that want bigger units (Grieving legion) or want to maximize the WoT triggers.

25 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

But all in all it‘s not just about how hard you it, but also how much of a beating you can endure. And even with msu I think we need some fix point on the battlefield.

20 Bladegheist units for example.

I'm still a little skeptical of using Bladegheist and Harridans above MSU. Even in Scarlet each 3 bladegheist will give around 1 extra mortal on the charge, 20 of them give 3 extra mortals but make moving and placing the unit much harder. Sure the extra resilience help, but you end paying a premium price points-wise for it as they are priced considering their offensive potential. I wonder if isn't better to just go MSU with those offensive units and use Vanishing Phantasms to protect them from shooting/magic and and leave reinforced units to Chainrasps, Reapers and Hosts.

[Vastus]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

Been looking at Emerald Host myself and came up with the following, which coincidentally runs Dreadscythe:

Lady O: Soul Cage – 340 

GoS: General, MoM; Midnight Tome, Spectral Tether – 150 

Krulghast – 150 

Chainrasp x30 – 330 

Chainrasp x10 – 110

Chainrasp x10 – 110

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Dreadscythe x10 – 160 

Dreadscythe x10 – 160 

Terminexus: 85

The list's mainly centred on Lady O and the GoS, who'll deepstrike in. She'll shoot d6 mortals, he'll autocast Terminexus to d3 mortals to a lot of units, and then Emerald that'll cause d3 mortals to d3+1 units. Swingy but if it spikes then it will be hilarious and savage all those little heroes. 

 

I like the list overall, couple of points though:

-Why the third units of Spirit Hosts? You only have two heroes that really need to be protected, since Olynder doesn't really benefit from them much (3+ instead of 4+ Ward isn't much difference), and she's likely to be near one of the other heroes and their bodyguard anyway. Those points could be used to reinforce one of the smaller rasp units.

-I think Seal of Shyish and Shademist are probably our best spells, and key if you want that larger block of Chainrasps to stay alive. Unless you have a specific combo with Knight of Shrouds in mind I don't think Soul Cage is as valuable anymore now that it only works on our turn rather than the whole battle round (on top of losing the 'no retreat' and increasing in casting value).

(Edit) - Also don't forget your batallions. You could get a nice Lightshard of the Harvest Moon in there for a nova turn with a Warlord batallion.

 

Separate from the list, I wanted to mention one thing regarding the Harridan discussion. Yeah, you don't want to reinforce them, and I don't think they are amazing as the central focus of a list, but having one or two MSU is still worthwhile imo. You have to remember that they are very self-sufficient and good at dueling other small units on objectives, or supporting your actual main threats. The -wound makes them durable and means they are fine being activated last, while they provide their own self-bonuses on a relatively easy condition with a massive amount of attacks. And if they aren't taken care of, they can clutch a late-game when everything is limping by.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Vastus

[lare2]

Cheers. 

36 minutes ago, Vastus said:

Why the third units of Spirit Hosts?

Truth be told, I built it more so just considering what models I've got built as I've a game tonight. I've everything excluding the new stuff but never bothered building most of it.

My logic, however, is for Lady O and the GoS to be central and to really take a hit as they'll be pumping out the mortals listed above per turn. One unit of SH would deepstrike with Lady O and the GoS, whilst the other 2 would leg it forward to join them. I'm confident that Lady O being front and centre, causing that amount of mortals, would be too much temptation and 3x3 offers her potentially 27 more wounds, plus the SH will do damage in return. That little cluster should hold up quite a lot of their army whilst mine does whatever it wants. 

The Krulghast would support the Dreadscythe, pinging wounds but hanging back to get the 3+ 3+. I think he'll be alright and, to quote Ivan Drago, if he dies... he dies. This cluster would float on a wing and try to target weaker units, aiming for opponent terf objectives. 

43 minutes ago, Vastus said:

think Seal of Shyish and Shademist are probably our best spells,

They're incredibly strong spells. I chose Spectral Tether as the GoS will teleport as soon as possible back to the 30 man blob of rasps, which by that point will be on a midtable objective. They will then do nothing more but aim to survive. The other 2x10 Chainrasps are there to defend home turf and to hunt objectives.

Soul Cage is on Lady O as, as said, I'm expecting an attack there and I'd rather all my SH and her fight first. 

[lare2]

48 minutes ago, Vastus said:

Also don't forget your batallions

Thanks! Will have to take a look before tonight!

[Rachmani]

2 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

I'm still a little skeptical of using Bladegheist and Harridans above MSU. Even in Scarlet each 3 bladegheist will give around 1 extra mortal on the charge, 20 of them give 3 extra mortals but make moving and placing the unit much harder. Sure the extra resilience help, but you end paying a premium price points-wise for it as they are priced considering their offensive potential. I wonder if isn't better to just go MSU with those offensive units and use Vanishing Phantasms to protect them from shooting/magic and and leave reinforced units to Chainrasps, Reapers and Hosts.

It could very well be, that you’re right.

That‘s one part of the fun of this book. There‘s a lot going on and things want to get figured out. 
I come from the perspective that you want to maximise gheists in scarlet doom (with them being battleline and maybe skip reapers and chainghasts.

But even that could be wrong or not be the only working approach. 
Fun times!

[Vastus]

50 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Cheers. 

Truth be told, I built it more so just considering what models I've got built as I've a game tonight. I've everything excluding the new stuff but never bothered building most of it. [...]

 

That makes sense. The Spirit Hosts do not really add additional wounds to Olynder though. Just in case you weren't aware, their 3+ bodyguard replaces any ward saves the unit might have, of which Olynder has a 4+. So you're spending points and losing models to basically increase her ward from 4+ to 3+. If she's very close to death that may be worth it, but usually isn't. The Guardian of course benefits massively from them. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you knew that interaction, I do like the idea of the list.

[EnixLHQ]

1 minute ago, Vastus said:

That makes sense. The Spirit Hosts do not really add additional wounds to Olynder though. Just in case you weren't aware, their 3+ bodyguard replaces any ward saves the unit might have, of which Olynder has a 4+. So you're spending points and losing models to basically increase her ward from 4+ to 3+. If she's very close to death that may be worth it, but usually isn't. The Guardian of course benefits massively from them. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you knew that interaction, I do like the idea of the list.

As would Kurdoss if you want a hero beatstick

[The_Dudemeister]

New General's Handbook does away with the MONSTER shenanigans of Ghur and will emphasize troops choices

 

That's a big fat buff for Nighthaunt in my book 😁👌