AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

Is it just me or does the Black Coach come with both the scythe and grasp now

[EnixLHQ]

52 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Thanks for the pointers. I run them in my PtG campaign so will see how they do there before jumping into matched play with them. 

Honest Wargamer's done the below. I enjoy his vids. About to start watching it whilst doing the dishes. 

 

So apparently the -1 save debuff on the charge can stack infinitely? -3 to enemy save if you rolled 8+ to charge on three NH units into one target. Not super likely, but with an always-charge gameplay it's likely to pop some effect all over the board.

[Neck-Romantic]

Yes the -1 save stacks... but does the -1 to hit...?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[lare2]

3 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Yes the -1 sace stacks... but does the -1 to hit...?

Sorry. Read that wrong. 

19 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

So apparently the -1 save debuff on the charge can stack infinitely?

I missed that it could stack first time as well. Had to reread the blurb under Wave of Terror.

Edited May 3, 2022 by lare2

[lare2]

51 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Is it just me or does the Black Coach come with both the scythe and grasp now

Just the one choice. It says in the bit in italics at the start of the scroll. 

[EnixLHQ]

From Core Rules: 

A hit roll cannot be modified by more
than +1 or -1 (this is an exception to the principle
that abilities take precedence over core rules).

A save roll cannot be modified by more than +1 (this
is an exception to the principle that abilities take
precedence over core rules).

Designer’s Note: Save rolls do not always succeed on
an unmodified roll of 6, and they can be modified by
more than -1.
 

So, yeah, saves can be nerfed into the ground, but not hit rolls. Makes the 8-9 range even more powerful to get.

Edited May 3, 2022 by EnixLHQ

[Benlisted]

So been updating my number crunching spreadsheet based on the leaks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit?usp=sharing

Unbuffed Harridans are best vs low saves, with a bit of a gap to rasps > myrs > blades >> hexes > reapers > craventhrone (melee + ranged) = chainghasts > hosts which are all relatively close with a slightly larger gap after banshees.  Glaives way out the bottom.  

For higher saves myrs best, then gheists = chains > reapers >> hexes > harridans.  Notably harridans cease to be best at 5+ saves but only marginally.

With self buffs vs low saves it's harridans then BGs pulling ahead more from rasps but reapers equal rasps.  At high saves revs basically equal myrs with their buff, but reapers and harridans are both pulling respectably similar numbers.  So that reapers are more useable than my first pass showed, though hexes being as good output wise as them (without buffs) and super mobile with MWs certainly means they have stiff competition...

Another key thing to note is that harridans with their buff retain the best output up until 3+ where they only marginally lose to BGs, so they are the best option efficiency wise into most realistic targets if you can get a wound off first, bar the unkillable 2+ type stuff for which we can use MWs. Their debuff also probably renders them one of the most durable units point for point.  And they don't need investment in +1 to hit and +1 to wound buffs unlike other units, saving a ton of points there.

Durability wise hosts are obviously the best, and the 4-model units are nearly half as durable for the points, they are super frail (i.e. takes half the damage to kill 1pt of models).

Some other observations on our sources of bonuses having done this:

+atks
Artefact - lightshard (once per game)
BR charging
GR vs 5+ models

+to hit
Olynder grief-stricken
AOA - free with KOSOES, copy with DH
DH if wounded
Chainghast aura

+to wound
GoS
CH charging
DH if wounded

Basically there are a ton less buff auras than we used to have, all the rerolls and effects on 6s we used to have are totally gone (though we also have a ton of debuffs now).  There's also a number of different ways to ensure you get each bonus and given each is self-applied by some units you can possibly skimp on some support depending how you build your list.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Benlisted
Corrected spreadsheet issue and updated summary

[Leshoyadut]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

From Core Rules: 

A hit roll cannot be modified by more
than +1 or -1 (this is an exception to the principle
that abilities take precedence over core rules).

A save roll cannot be modified by more than +1 (this
is an exception to the principle that abilities take
precedence over core rules).

Designer’s Note: Save rolls do not always succeed on
an unmodified roll of 6, and they can be modified by
more than -1.
 

So, yeah, saves can be nerfed into the ground, but not hit rolls. Makes the 8-9 range even more powerful to get.

I do think it's worth noting that -2 to hit can still potentially be useful to cancel out a potential AOA or similar effect. Obviously, if you can, minuses to saves are much better, but getting more than one of the 4-7 charge effect isn't totally worthless.

[EnixLHQ]

9 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

I do think it's worth noting that -2 to hit can still potentially be useful to cancel out a potential AOA or similar effect. Obviously, if you can, minuses to saves are much better, but getting more than one of the 4-7 charge effect isn't totally worthless.

Right, it's the final amount can't be more than +/- 1 for hit. So if you're in a buff war with someone you can stack several -1 hit charge effects to end up net -1.

[That Guy]

So i just looked over the warscrolls again and when you pair the dreadblade with Nagash, you can have 3 Nighthaunt units benefit from 5+ ward in the combat phase for 2CP. You copy death incarnate and issue discorporate with another unit. Pair it with a Krulghast or Awlrach and you got yourself some crazy mitigation / utility shenanigans.

[Vastus]

8 minutes ago, That Guy said:

So i just looked over the warscrolls again and when you pair the dreadblade with Nagash, you can have 3 Nighthaunt units benefit from 5+ ward in the combat phase for 2CP. You copy death incarnate and issue discorporate with another unit. Pair it with a Krulghast or Awlrach and you got yourself some crazy mitigation / utility shenanigans.

Couldn't you make it 4 even, if you have a second Dreadblade? Nagash is automatically a general, so you can have another unit as your general issue Discorporate, and copy that with the second Dreadblade. It says "Once per battle round, when your general issues a command, this unit can issue [...]", which I think means it's once per battle round for that specific Dreadblade. Otherwise it would say 'a unit with this ability' instead of 'this unit' right?

[Jaskier]

I think where Grimghast Reapers will shine is in Grieving Legion, as they are probably the best unit to take advantage of the subfaction rule. I'm thinking two units of 30 to go with a Dreadblade Harrow (to mimic Rally or Redeploy or Discorporate or All Out Attack) and either variant of the Knight of Shrouds (for the free Redeploy or All Out Attack and two activations in one.)

The obvious alternative for even more defensive efficiency is a Krulghast + Dreadblade combo instead. The Spirit Torment also shines here, restoring 3 dead Grimghasts per turn. I'm thinking of using both (Krulghast in one blob, Torment in the other) and having the Dreadblade (double 5++) and Kurdoss (can-opener) supporting, but that might be too all-in on the strategy. The nice thing is retreat and charge means the Grimghasts never have to stay in an unfavourable fight (unless fighting another army with a similar no-retreat rule) so it's a very flexible group. 

30 4+ wounds is much, much harder to cut down than 30 5+ wounds, so for the purpose of tarpitting I'd probably invest extra to take the Grimghasts over Chainrasps, especially as with their self buff and any bonus to hit they actually get quite scary - and critically, unlike Bladegheists and Dreadscythes, they have a 2" reach so don't mind nearly as much being in bigger units. Those two units with the copied 5++ thanks to the Dreadblade that can't be retreated from and can even both be Rallied in the same turn will be a right pain for a lot of armies to deal with. 

Outside of that though, and especially if you unlock either the Dreadscythes or Bladegheists as Battleline in a different subfaction, they don't look to be in a great spot. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Jaskier

[The_Dudemeister]

I'm blanking out here, can someone explain the Reaper of Sorrows artifact to me?

 

1 melee weapon. Before the attack you pick 1 enemy unit within 1" and try to beat their bravery. If you succeed that weapon's rend goes to -3 against that unit. It goes to -4 if the target is terrified.

 

But the opponent is always automatically terrified, even 2" further away. So when does the -3 rend ever apply? Technically you don't get the extra rend against Nighthaunt, but... you know... So when else is that weapon on a successful bravery roll ever not -4?

[EnixLHQ]

Just now, The_Dudemeister said:

I'm blanking out here, can someone explain the Reaper of Sorrows artifact to me?

 

1 melee weapon. Before the attack you pick 1 enemy unit within 1" and try to beat their bravery. If you succeed that weapon's rend goes to -3 against that unit. It goes to -4 if the target is terrified.

 

But the opponent is always automatically terrified, even 2" further away. So when does the -3 rend ever apply? Technically you don't get the extra rend against Nighthaunt, but... you know... So when else is that weapon on a successful bravery roll ever not -4?

The Honest Wargamer brought up this same point. My speculation is that somewhere in the future there may be a way to either negate being terrorized or be immune to it. Nighthaunt are already immune to it, even from another NH army, so the precedence is there.

[Rors]

3 hours ago, Benlisted said:

So been updating my number crunching spreadsheet based on the leaks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit?usp=sharing

Numbers wise, for the points Harridans are the best output we have vs low saves (then rasps, closely followed by gheists and myrs).  Vs high saves (4+ or better) the myrmourns are the most points efficient damage we have by some margin, with gheists next and harridans actually second (though only hitting half the output per points of myrs).  Reapers look really sad, without their self buff they are worse than hosts, marginally worse than hexes and almost as bad as glaives!  The BC's output is not good in raw numbers but it has its new MWs.

I have 48 Banshees from a list that was previously a joke fun build I made for cheap out of second hand models I got. I'm over the moon with the new Banshee Warscroll. Some of the best output in the book AND amazing tech against magic! Really fragile but with some many MSU banshees I think I'll often proc the 10+ to hand out strike last. Points have gone up so I might not be able to spam all 12 units but I'm really keen so see how it goes.

I think my nighthaunt went from being my joke meme fun list to potentially being 'that guy' at the club and I'm loving it.

[EnixLHQ]

I'm thinking there is a missing page or few to the leaks...

Reikenor, Kurdoss, Awlrach, and presumably Olynder, all have the Grieving Legion keyword which does nothing for them. Yet no other heroes or rank-and-file units have it. This suggests to me that for that subfaction there is a specific ability or artifact not yet revealed that they may have the option to take or are forced to take.

In fact, I think that whole subfaction section seems a bit light.

Anyone got any info on that?

[Maxo Bug]

So... new Warhammer Community article "confirms" at least part of the Leak, for those of you who where the most skeptic. (New Ethereal and Discorporate):

You can see it here

[Arzalyn]

32 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'm thinking there is a missing page or few to the leaks...

Reikenor, Kurdoss, Awlrach, and presumably Olynder, all have the Grieving Legion keyword which does nothing for them. Yet no other heroes or rank-and-file units have it. This suggests to me that for that subfaction there is a specific ability or artifact not yet revealed that they may have the option to take or are forced to take.

In fact, I think that whole subfaction section seems a bit light.

Anyone got any info on that?

3rd edition subfactions so far have all been just a single ability, it should not have anything else.

Attaching a sub allegiances keyword into named heroes is something rather common they kept from the last edition. With this edition sub allegiances focusing on buffing specific units, nowadays it's quiet common to have this limitation mean nothing for those heroes in the end. It's more a flavour nudge here.

[frostfire]

I don't see Bladegheists as good tbh. They are costly, require certain sub-faction to become battleline. They have 32mm but 1'' weapon and don't do significantly more damage than dreadscythes or grimghasts. And since the whole army can retreat and charge they just don't seem to be "special" anymore.

I think I'd need more info to justify taking them instead of dreadscythes or grimghasts...

BTW banshees seem to be so good that they need a Faq.

[Neck-Romantic]

Bladegeists have better to hit and wound and a point of rend. Also Elites. You do have to factor in that opposing armies are going to have debuffs of their own as well. 

Harridans definitely got a great boost and are quite competetive, but BG's still have some benefits going for them.

Harridans are plainly our anti-chaff and BG's seem to be more oriented against enemy elites

Edited May 4, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[lare2]

2 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'm thinking there is a missing page or few to the leaks...

We haven't seen our battalions yet... unless I've missed something. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by lare2

[Rors]

I think bladegeist will only be good in their themed sub-faction but within that, I think they can definitely be super competitive if you build around them. Outside that.. meh.

A unit of 30 will do an average of 10 mortal wounds on the charge, before combat, that's bonkers. There's also multiple ways to get a 5+ ward. If you factor that in, they go from being the least point efficient combat unit to extremely scary. They'll wreck everything they hit with 10MW each charge phase and with a combo of a 5+ and healing they'll be really tanky. It'll be a list with two wrecking balls of bladegeist with most of everything else being something that combos to support them.

 

Side note: does anyone else find it odd that the two sub-factions that are specifically themed around particular units have their main artwork as something else? Scarletdoom is the bladegeist sub-faction but their main art features a harridan and quicksilver is meant to be the harridan sub-faction but the artwork is a banshee. Just feel like the art department and rules team weren't talking to each other.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Rors
afterthought

[Evil Bob]

15 hours ago, lare2 said:

On Dreadscythe, I really loved them prior to this book but I can't seem to get them to work, in theory. Anyone any ideas? 

On a related note, disappointed to see there's only 1 crone allowed per 10. My units are now illegal... fortunately I've a number of unbuilt spares. 

Making Them Work: Flank charge the target with one ot two min units of Hexwraiths to get in the mortals and proc the Deathscythe’s warscroll. Enjoy up to 41 attacks with 3+\3+. If Hexwraiths aren’t your pleasure bring either a shooty hero or Chainghiests. Personally I prefer more charging units since it increases the chances of WoT Save penalties which in effect is giving everyone there a better Rend, which would be bonkers if it didn’t require tactics and good dice rolls.

If you are not fighting against a low save army their utility goes down. If you are fighting MW or dice spam they are going to be wasted points. They might need some screening if your opponents know how good of a value every point of damage is.

Personally I like their -1 to Wound effect on charges. People can get around to hit modifiers more easily, wounding penalties less so. 

Warscroll Whiplash: At the time things were pretty bad so I wasn’t surprised at that bacon. Although it was a bit shocking ANYTHING at all was being done to help. I already had two units of ten and almost went and kitbashed some extra limbs on two models, glad it didn’t happen.
 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Evil Bob
Forgot to add something.

[I_usually_just_lurk]

Just a quick note: I tested a KoS on steed with the trait that allows him to reroll hits and wounds (against non-Death, but who plays Death lol), and the artefact that gives him Rend -4. So that’s 5 attacks 3+ 3+ rerolled -4 2. And if he killed a model, at the end of the combat phase he heals 1 and gains 1 to his wound characteristic.

I was really liking him as a babysitter to Bladegheists (for the double activation and the free All out attack). I don’t hear ppl talking about the KoS but I find him especially fun to kit out with traits and artefacts (you can make him heal D6+1 every combat phase in which he kills a model, on top of gaining 1 wound characteristic)… he’s just fun. And his high-attacks, low-rend weapon opens him up to shenanigans.

[Neck-Romantic]

Am I the only one real sad about the Black Tome change?