AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

So its hard not to be discouraged at the current leaks. And we know from the Deepking/Fyreslayer release that warscrolls essentially remain unchanged between the box and the battletome release. 

But, the deepkin gained a lot of their strength in their sub faction abilities. Like a thrall is pretty meh based on its warscroll alone, but when combined with tides, rituals, sub factions and character support they become pretty strong. I'm hoping thats the case for us. We currently don't know our primary allegiance abilities, and if its anything like Deepkin or other recent books, they are a pretty big freaking deal. 

But if I put on my rose-tinted glasses, It does seem like the buffs are easier to keep up. The spirit torment heal is more reliable/easy to pull off. And the +1 to hit (RIP rerolls) can just straight up come from Chainghasts as long as the spirit torment is alive, and both are 25% faster. 

How many times have we charged our blocks of troops out of range of the rerolls bc heroes were so slow? 

 

 

 

I really wouldn't worry too much. I think all the 3rd edition battletomes have been quite good so far, and the recent Battlescroll shows that GW is aware that Nighthaunt are one of the weaker armies. A lot of the juice is definitely being moved from warscrolls to allegiance abilities right now. We saw that with Nurgle, Fyreslayers and Deepkin. And all three books came out well: More diverse, more thematic and mechanically stronger.

[Landohammer]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I really wouldn't worry too much. I think all the 3rd edition battletomes have been quite good so far, and the recent Battlescroll shows that GW is aware that Nighthaunt are one of the weaker armies. A lot of the juice is definitely being moved from warscrolls to allegiance abilities right now. We saw that with Nurgle, Fyreslayers and Deepkin. And all three books came out well: More diverse, more thematic and mechanically stronger.

Agreed. For the most part, AOS has had a good track record of relatively balanced battletomes lately. Stormcast and Slaanesh being the outliers of course.

I am optimistic. I mean, we can't really get any worse right?

 

Right?....

[EnixLHQ]

What I'm about to say is complete hearsay because for the life of me I can't find the source, but I remember coming across an article back somewhere in the 2.0 days after the release of Legion of Grief that kind of addressed why Nighthaunt has had their odd relationship with balancing.

The bulk of the article was about the competitiveness of LoG when compared to vanilla NH, but then got to the topic of NH balance changes, and the interviewee (who I think was either a top tournament player or even a GW employee of some sort) said something along the lines of "Nighthaunt has such unique interplay with their keywords that if we change how they work we run the very real risk that the changes cascade into runaway powercreep." I'm paraphrasing from (admittedly flawed) memory.

But it detailed a couple things. Like the 4+ save with Ethereal. They gave the example of what would happen if all 4+ became 3+, which they likened to turning Nighthaunt into an unkillable army on that alone. Or if Ethereal got changed to allow beneficial modifiers every army with access to Ethereal (and we still had Ethereal Amulet as a universal artifact) would never choose anything else. It'd break Rend as a mechanic, single-handedly, since you could still shield up and cover up.

But I remember the biggest takeaway I had about the article was how no one asked, and no one volunteered, why these rules can't be Nighthaunt-specific. Sure, you can't really change Ethereal, but what if Nighthaunt were no longer Ethereal and instead were Spectral or Mistform, or some other flavor text that did exactly what we wanted with the keyword?

/shrug - Anyway, just wanted to braindump that. Maybe one of you out there remembers the article and can link it.

[Neck-Romantic]

Good point. 

"Why cant we just fix them and make it only apply to them?"

"Shrug"

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

12 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

What I'm about to say is complete hearsay because for the life of me I can't find the source, but I remember coming across an article back somewhere in the 2.0 days after the release of Legion of Grief that kind of addressed why Nighthaunt has had their odd relationship with balancing.

The bulk of the article was about the competitiveness of LoG when compared to vanilla NH, but then got to the topic of NH balance changes, and the interviewee (who I think was either a top tournament player or even a GW employee of some sort) said something along the lines of "Nighthaunt has such unique interplay with their keywords that if we change how they work we run the very real risk that the changes cascade into runaway powercreep." I'm paraphrasing from (admittedly flawed) memory.

But it detailed a couple things. Like the 4+ save with Ethereal. They gave the example of what would happen if all 4+ became 3+, which they likened to turning Nighthaunt into an unkillable army on that alone. Or if Ethereal got changed to allow beneficial modifiers every army with access to Ethereal (and we still had Ethereal Amulet as a universal artifact) would never choose anything else. It'd break Rend as a mechanic, single-handedly, since you could still shield up and cover up.

But I remember the biggest takeaway I had about the article was how no one asked, and no one volunteered, why these rules can't be Nighthaunt-specific. Sure, you can't really change Ethereal, but what if Nighthaunt were no longer Ethereal and instead were Spectral or Mistform, or some other flavor text that did exactly what we wanted with the keyword?

/shrug - Anyway, just wanted to braindump that. Maybe one of you out there remembers the article and can link it.

I would hope that Ethereal gets changed to allow positive modifiers at this point. I don't think it would be too powerful, given the state of the game at large. "Ignore negative save modifiers" is already in the game as a non-keyworded ability. 3+ saves ignoring rend already exist and are widespread. And I can't think of anything outside of Nighthaunt that even has Ethereal apart from Anvil of Apotheosis heroes.

Or just make Ethereal "ignore all rend" and let positive and negative save modifiers affect it. That's another option that would make things more easy. Maybe add "Ethereal units can't benefit from cover or garrison bonuses" if that's a point of concern.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Rachmani]

From the top of my head I like "ignore rend" instead of all modifiers.

Anyway, that whole argument that ethereal can't be changed because some future unit might become too good is kinda shallow. Like really shallow.

Personally I'm fine with ethereal as is, but I'm not too keen on the reduced interaction that follows in its wake. The NH players can't raise the saves and their opponents can't try to lower them. It's just reduced interaction overall. Now, as save stacking is kinda dumb anyway, I think it not all bad, but interaction means more decisions and that imo is always a plus.

So what I hope is for a unique command ability that replaces All-out defense for NH. And maybe other ways of pushing interaction.

[Neck-Romantic]

With continuing efforts to streamline the game, -1 to hit and/or wound is about the most we will likely see in the way of defensive boosts.

 

In that vein it would be nice if these abilities (like shademist) were commands or auras, rather than spells that can fail to cast or be countered, and give us something more robust as a fail-able defensive ability, like preventing the chosen unit from being targeted by spells or ranged attacks from further than x" away or things of that nature

Edited March 29, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Jabbuk]

If the book is even remotely "good", I really wonder how it'll affect the meta. Strong armies right now all have high rend and powerful attacks. One of our main issue right now is that we don't have the means to delete stuff strategically. All our damage tables are 1damg, rend -1. If we have some additional strong tools, I feel like it could really disrupt armies like Stormcast for example (aside from dragons who vomit MWs).

Edited March 29, 2022 by Jabbuk

[Neck-Romantic]

Another reason Im hoping for army-wide frightful touch. We also have a smattering of 'slay model' type abilities that could be expanded, and bravery shenanigans, though those are always massivly hit or miss.

[Gitzdee]

7 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Another reason Im hoping for army-wide frightful touch. We also have a smattering of 'slay model' type abilities that could be expanded, and bravery shenanigans, though those are always massivly hit or miss.

I would love this. Having frightful touch as an army wide ability seems to fit the Nighthaunt theme and having high risk high reward abilities make me feel like i am playing a game with dice. Abilities like those are always the most fun, maybe not the most competitive though.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Iksdee

[Landohammer]

The easy answer is already on several other death faction warscrolls: It should be "ignore the first point of rend". 

This would give them ethereal most of the time, while still encouraging interaction with terrain and access to save buffs. 

And before anyone complaints that "All out defense" would be too powerful with that ability, I just played two tournaments where I had to fight 4-5 dragons who pretty much ALWAYS had a 2+/5++. 

So they clearly don't mind handing out access to conditional 2+ saves.

[Neck-Romantic]

Your point being change ethereal to only ignoring 1 point of rend *while also* improving saves from standard 4+ I assume

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

56 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Another reason Im hoping for army-wide frightful touch. We also have a smattering of 'slay model' type abilities that could be expanded, and bravery shenanigans, though those are always massivly hit or miss.

In my opinion, Nighthaunt are already an army that ignores a lot of the core game mechanics by getting flight and ethereal across the board. Also giving them the ability to have everything ignore the opponent's save to a degree would be a mistake. Not to mention that there are already too many mortal wounds focussed armies out there, to the point that it devalues regular combat damage.

But on the other hand, I don't know what kind of army Nighthaunt should be designed to be. A lot of their potential niches like being hard to kill, resurrection and summoning, high magic and deep striking are already covered quite well in other Death armies. It feels like bravery stuff should be a big part of the Nighthaunt identity, but making that not extremely matchup dependent seems really difficult.

I think maybe leaning into the whole mobility/teleportation thing instead might be cool. KO boats get the ability to teleport every turn for free on their warscrolls. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that for Nighthaunt in some form and it would definitely make them feel distinct from the rest of GA: Death. I don't think this is the direction the new book will take, though, since they already said that Awlrach will move troops around as one of his functions, so it's probably not also an army-wide ability.

I would say the damage problem could be fixed by tweaking a few combat profiles and point costs. Bladegheists are really punchy, they are just also very expensive in their role at 190. Grimghasts could pretty safely be buffed. Glaivewraiths could be good if they did what their fluff says they do. If those regular units were just allowed to do a little more work, there would not be much of a need to rely on mortal wounds.

[Gitzdee]

I just had the random thought of giving foes a -1 to hit on any Nighthaunt unit that moved or charged this turn, or something similar. Feels spooky/ ethereal and might be a bit much, but could be negated by the seemingly weak combat profiles. 

Edit: While teleporting seems fun on some units i dont think its a good Nighthaunt exclusive thing. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Iksdee

[EnixLHQ]

We could pretty easily get around the Bravery issue if we used a different mechanic instead. Like instead of Depravity points we gained "terror" points that we could then spend on various effects that are themed around fear.

Not OBR's discipline points, but a separate point-buy system based on our in-game actions.

And we use them to buy otherwise Bravery-based results. Force your opponent to roll as though they lost 5 models in combat that turn, even if they only lost 1, for X points. For a few more points, they roll battleshock even if they lost no models.

[Kadeton]

Instead of -1 Bravery within 6" of Nighthaunt, just turning off the command ability to auto-pass Battleshock checks would be wonderful and thematic. But I'd take anything that works with the terror theme, honestly.

[lare2]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

We could pretty easily get around the Bravery issue if we used a different mechanic instead. Like instead of Depravity points we gained "terror" points that we could then spend on various effects that are themed around fear.

Maybe something like Nurgle's contagion points might work.

[EnixLHQ]

I'll always cite how in the lore Nighthaunt, or at least when Olynder is there, is so terrifying to the enemy that even stalwart Stormcast have their hearts seize in their chests, and lesser men age and die, all by mere exposure to the gloom of the haunt.

So what if one of the "terror points" abilities was just mortal wounds at range? Big cost, big boom.

Or by investing an amount of points you could impose a battlefield-wide rule. Kind of like Deepkin's tides, but more like a rolling fog on the battlefield.

/dreaming

[Gitzdee]

Could make every enemy unit within range of a nighthaunt unit take a kind of stupidity check and if they fail they do nothing for the turn. 

[Neck-Romantic]

My thoughts on bravery would be either the point-buy, cursing a target unit, or turn-based cumulative effect that does; "enemy units have a maximum bravery value of x" that gets worse and worse.

Doesnt over-juice low bravery horde armies, rightly terrifies high bravery armies, and then makes our -1 and any other stscking penalties more potent.

My idea would be

Turn 1 = max bravery 9

Turn 2 = max bravery 8

Turn 3 = max bravery 7

And so on. Give a hero or the Mourgul some shreik abilities here and there that impose a -1 bravery on top of that and suddenly we are a high-bravery counter army

Could lean into it further by army wide ability that states enemies with a bravery value of "x" or less (say 7)  get -1 to hit nighthaunt units, and enemies with a lower "x" (say 5) all nighthaunt get +1 to hit or wound etc

Might be OP, tweak the numbers maybe but would be a way to tie it all into bravery and make it thematic, and it has precedence with all the incremental turn based stuff we're seeing.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[dmorley21]

I've never been into the bravery shenanigans with Nighthaunt - I'm much more into the Wave of Terror and Legion of Grief builds. I started a Google Doc with changes I'd make to the army... but with the new book on the way and life getting busy I doubt I'll add much more. But here were what I had so far:

Battle Traits

Deathless Spirits

Roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to a friendly Nighthaunt model from a unit wholly within 12” of a friendly Nighthaunt hero or wholly within 18” of your general or a friendly Nighthaunt totem. On a 6+, that wound or mortal wound is negated. 

Aura of Dread

Subtract 1 from the Bravery characteristic of enemy units while they are within 6” of 1 friendly Nighthaunt unit. Subtract 2 from the Bravery characteristic while they are within 6” of 2 friendly Nighthaunt units. 

Legions of Grief and Spectral Hunters

You must decide if your army will be a Legions of Grief army or a Spectral Hunters Army. Record your choice on your army roster. All Nighthaunt units in a Legions of Grief army gain the Legions of Grief keyword. All Nighthaunt units in a Spectral Hunters army gain the Spectral Hunters keyword. 

Legions of Grief

After territories have been chosen but before armies are set up, you can pick up to 1 point on the battlefield within your territory and 1 point within your opponent’s territory to be Lanterns of Grief. Each Lantern of Grief must be more than 1” from all terrain features and objectives. 

Instead of setting up Nighthaunt Legions of Grief units on the battlefield before the battle begins, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in the underworld as a reserve unit. You can set up 1 reserve unit in the underworld for each Nighthaunt Legions of Grief unit you already have set up on the battlefield. 

At the end of any of your movement phases, you can set up 1 or more of these units wholly within 12” of a Lantern of Grief and more than 9” from all enemy units. At the start of the fourth battle round, reserve units that are still in the grave are destroyed. 

In addition, if a Nighthaunt Legions of Grief unit is wholly within 12” of a Lantern of Grief, it can heal D3 wounds or return an amount of models with a combined wounds characteristic equal to or less than the D3 roll. Also, add 1 to Deathless Spirits Rolls while a friendly Nighthaunt Legions of Grief unit is wholly within 12” of a Lantern of Grief. 

Spectral Hunters

If you make a charge roll of 10+ for a friendly Spectral Hunters Nighthaunt unit, it can fight immediately after you complete the charge move. This does not stop the same unit from being picked to fight in the combat phase of the same turn. 

Deathly Processions

You can pick 1 of the following subfactions for your army (core rules, 27.2.1). All Nighthaunt units in your army gain the keyword of the subfaction you picked, and you can use the allegiance abilities for that subfaction. If a unit already has a different subfaction keyword on its warscroll, it cannot gain another one. This does not preclude you from including the unit in your army, but you cannot use the allegiance abilities for its subfaction. 

The Emerald Host

After each army finishes deploying, choose an enemy unit on the battlefield. Roll a dice for that unit at the beginning of each battle round. If the roll is equal to or less than the battle round number, reduce that unit’s save characteristic by a number equal to the current battle round. If the roll is not equal to or less than the battle round number, reduce that unit’s save characteristic by 1. 

Reikenor’s Condemned

Each friendly Reikenor’s Condemned wizard can elect to deal D3 mortals to itself at the beginning of the hero phase. If it does, it can add that value to its casting rolls. Myrmourn Banshees are battleline. 

The Craven Host

Craven Host units can retreat and charge or shoot. Craventhrone Guard are battleline. 

Death Riders

Death Riders units with mounts gain +1 to charge. In addition, if they are Spectral Hunters, the Spectral Hunters ability is activated on a 9+. Black Coaches are battleline. 

The Sorrowmourn Choir

The Deathless Spirits ability is activated on a 5+ for Dreadscythe Harridans and Myrmourn Banshees. Dreadscythe Harridans are battleline. 

Execution Horde

At the beginning of each battle round, select an enemy unit. Friendly Execution Horde attacks against that unit are +1 to hit and +1 to wound. 

[dmorley21]

Had I continued, I would've added once per game Spectral Commands like Stormcast Holy Commands. One would've been a once per game Spectral Summons and another would've been a once per game ability to replace a charge roll with an unmodified 10". 

[Boggler]

23 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

But I remember the biggest takeaway I had about the article was how no one asked, and no one volunteered, why these rules can't be Nighthaunt-specific. Sure, you can't really change Ethereal, but what if Nighthaunt were no longer Ethereal and instead were Spectral or Mistform, or some other flavor text that did exactly what we wanted with the keyword?

/shrug - Anyway, just wanted to braindump that. Maybe one of you out there remembers the article and can link it.

I remember. Its because the designers have no balls.

They say something and then have no data to back it up.

Would NH have been amazing if the Mourghul kept its 3+ save? Maybe for a few months?

Kragnos has a 2+ save, a 6++, 18 wounds, and a spell ignore, He still dies.

If all NH got a 3+ save and they kept Ethereal the way it is I'm sure we'd be fine. We'd also keep the built-in overcost of this obviously and this is where it becomes tricky. Most units that get charged use AAD anyways so their save is almost always +1. I don't know.

If we go glass hammer style I'd be ok. I just want our profiles to actually kill something and we need mega damage to do that nowadays. And no, profiles with 10-15 -1 rend D1 attacks just isn't going to cut it. Even with bonus mortals on 6's

Anyways, I'm interested in the new book. Not really wishing for anything.

If Ethereal ignores Mortals, then great. If we get a mediocre book then also great.

[woolf]

3 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

My thoughts on bravery would be either the point-buy, cursing a target unit, or turn-based cumulative effect that does; "enemy units have a maximum bravery value of x" that gets worse and worse.

Doesnt over-juice low bravery horde armies, rightly terrifies high bravery armies, and then makes our -1 and any other stscking penalties more potent.

My idea would be

Turn 1 = max bravery 9

Turn 2 = max bravery 8

Turn 3 = max bravery 7

And so on. Give a hero or the Mourgul some shreik abilities here and there that impose a -1 bravery on top of that and suddenly we are a high-bravery counter army

Could lean into it further by army wide ability that states enemies with a bravery value of "x" or less (say 7)  get -1 to hit nighthaunt units, and enemies with a lower "x" (say 5) all nighthaunt get +1 to hit or wound etc

Might be OP, tweak the numbers maybe but would be a way to tie it all into bravery and make it thematic, and it has precedence with all the incremental turn based stuff we're seeing.

this is a great idea imo, elegant way to make it matter also vs demons/death whitout having to crank it up to where its blowing up destruction completely

[Beliman]

I'm not a Nighthaunt player, but giving 3+ save that ignores rend to Nighthaunt's 5-wound Heroes seems fine to me. But changing all Ethereal units to that will make Nighthaunts a perfect counter to armies that doesn't abuse mortal wounds. I'm not sure if it will be good for the game.

I know there are some crazy stuff out there, but I don't think that the game needs more "Stormdrake guards".

I'm a Night Lords fanatic (Horus Heresy army) and I always thought that NH are the perfect candidate to play like them. 

• Night Lords main Battle Trait is Talent for Murder. It's an ability that gives a really strong bonus if the enemy has less enemy models than yours. Thanks to the 2d edition leaks, this ability will be changed to affect enemy units that are pinned, fall back or have a negative modified characteristic (really important!). 
• Trophies of Judgement is an equipment that gives Fear to Nightlotds units. Fear is a debuff that targets all engaged enemies, taking down their "to hit" characteristic (yep, that triggers Talent of Murder).
• Teleportation Transponder: It's exactly what you think. An equipment to teleport your Terminators (remember to equip them with Trophies of Judgement!)
• They can make the first turns to be Night Fighting, giving them Cover (that can be stacked with other rules).

In other words: they teleport near enemies, scare the ****** out of them, that makes your unit hit like a truck, and then return to the darkness of the night. Of course there are a lot more tools to play with (ranged attacks, transports, snipers, flying Night Raptors, etc...), but that's their basic gameplay that I believe it completely suits Nighthaunts:

• Feed on Terror could be their Talent for Murder. Focusing on bravery and outnumbering enemies (to maintain their Horde gameplay) for a big offensive buff.
• From Underworld they Come is exactly the same of Teleports Transponders.
• Aura of Death should be NH Tropies of Judgement: Reduce enemies bravery enough to trigger Feed on Terror.

I'm not saying that a 1:1 is what Nighthaunts needs, they should have a lot more synergies like summoneable units, spells, Frightful Touch, buffing charges (Wave of Terror 2.0?), etc... but I'm talking about basic gameplay that can be explored in a lot of diferent ways.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Beliman
grammar