AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Kitsumy]

sure dude stop that allready. always saying things on a superior tone. like u have the reason only, only u knows how to play etc etc.

 

reavers lost half atacks in melee. u didnt counted it, lost 50% duravility since they cost 50% more. and cant get hit cp or turtle since they hit on 2s allready. so yeah. only lost everyplace,  they only won 33% dmg and 1 rend for 50%  increase. and if it wasnt ur first game, they would have +1 to hit(that is useless on new ones). so they lost half atacks in melee. keep same wounds, same damage for 50% increase in points, only won 1rend, so worth.

 

but of course the long range buff makeup for it.

edit: u guys are rigth, wont try to argue anymore

Edited January 22, 2022 by Kitsumy

[Drofnum]

Can we stop the back and forth on this already?  You guys arent going to agree, move on to a more productive conversation instead of just arguing to death.

[Orbei]

The problem is that people keep tossing around the word objectively while making subjective statements. Condescending tone never helps. 

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Nudge back onto topic please.  A lot of posts trying to justify why one view is correct over another.  AoS is a hobby and we're all entitled to our own opinions - sometimes we just need to agree to disagree on some things. 

[Nerdkingdan]

To move things along, until the new book, given our current rules, what lists should we look at?  

My initial thoughts were to look at a shark list without turtles, or a reaver list with the turtles.    I’m also wondering how 30 blocks of thralls with Morph might work, it always looked like it was just short of possible to do, extra reach might push it there.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Nerdkingdan

[vinnyt]

8 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

shark list without turtles

I've been really enjoying that list right now and will for sure be trying it out with the new book. Sharks being battleline would open up a lot of interesting lines of play and I think that 2 ishlaen, storm eidolon, and then sharks would be a very interesting list to test

 

8 hours ago, Nerdkingdan said:

ow 30 blocks of thralls with Morph might work

This has a lot of potential, but I worry about too many resources being devoted to protecting squishy foot characters. 20-30 thralls with thrallmaster is 370-500 points, which is pretty darn good but I might hedge on a single unit of 20 with the thrallmaster as sort of a baseline before seeing the rest of the changes. 

[DocKeule]

11 hours ago, vinnyt said:

This has a lot of potential, but I worry about too many resources being devoted to protecting squishy foot characters. 20-30 thralls with thrallmaster is 370-500 points, which is pretty darn good but I might hedge on a single unit of 20 with the thrallmaster as sort of a baseline before seeing the rest of the changes. 

Main problem with 30-Thrall units I see that even with 2" you might have problems to get all models into melee or be forced to engage two enemy units at the same time. 

[That Guy]

When I look at this faction, my mind just instantly shifts to Eidolon and Sharks. Eels are also cool I guess I would love the sharks to become battleline. I would be so down to collect and run the following list. Shoutout to @vinnyt 

If Sharks would get battleline:

Spoiler

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
- Army Subfaction: Fuethán
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER
Volturnos (260)* (amazing beatstick and great buff piece for allopexes)
Isharann Tidecaster (105)*
- General (Reverse tides to combo with Fuethán gettin re-rolls 1 to hit in 2 battlerounds outside of Volturnos aura. Great with the new allopex shooting. Run and Charge/shoot in 2 battle rounds is very nice too)
- Command Traits: Lord of Storm and Sea (Negate having to roll for battleshock on sharks or eels at all within range, EDIT: since Volturnos already gives +1 bravery in an aura, perhaps Master of Magic is a nicer pick here.)
- Spells: Steed of Tides (to keep up with the army or tactically place the eidolon/Volturnos) 
Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Storm (330)* (amazing beatstick and great buff piece for allopexes).
- Artefacts: Cloud of Midnight (Unleash hell? No.)

BATTLELINE
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Harpoons
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Harpoons
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Harpoons

TERRAIN
Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

OTHER
Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)* (objective control)
Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)*

CORE BATTALIONS:
*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (1995/2000

 Embracing Thralls if they don't get battleline:

Spoiler

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
- Army Subfaction: Fuethán
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER
Akhelian Thrallmaster (110)*
Volturnos (260)**
Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Storm (330)**
- Artefacts: Cloud of Midnight
Isharann Tidecaster (105)**
- General
- Command Traits: Lord of Storm and Sea
- Spells: Steed of Tides

BATTLELINE
1 x Namarti Thralls (260)*
Namarti Thralls (130)*
Namarti Thralls (130)*

TERRAIN
Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

OTHER
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Harpoons
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Harpoons

CORE BATTALIONS:
  *Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (1985/2000)

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by That Guy

[Rhetoric]

I’m loving the idea of a heavy shark build, 2x2 with harpoons and a lone wolf with a net to rove around and mess with pile ins.  

[That Guy]

31 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

I’m loving the idea of a heavy shark build, 2x2 with harpoons and a lone wolf with a net to rove around and mess with pile ins.  

I was thinking about that too, but you'll have to sacrifice some hero power if you do most likely. Depending on them becoming battleline or not that is. Any idea what you would run with that? 

[Rhetoric]

15 hours ago, That Guy said:

I was thinking about that too, but you'll have to sacrifice some hero power if you do most likely. Depending on them becoming battleline or not that is. Any idea what you would run with that? 

I’m really liking the Storm and Tidecaster for heroes.  I wish there was points for a king as well, but there are some hard choices right now.  
 

I also have never built an IDK list without Ishlaen Guard, they are just too valuable.  Depending on what gets to be Battleline in the new tome, I would say 2 x 10 Thralls, 1 x 10 Reavers, 2 x 3 Ishlaen and the Sharks and the heroes I listed above should sit somewhere around 2k.  
 

while I do like the turtle, there just isn’t enough room unfortunately.  Unless you are throwing him into low armor save units his damage is somewhat underwhelming in my opinion.  
 

I hope the king gets an interesting role in the new book, right now he is just hard to justify because you need to keep him alive until high tide.  I wish he was more a dueler piece you could throw up and survive on his own.  7 wounds is rough with no ward save. 

[That Guy]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:06 PM, Rhetoric said:

I’m really liking the Storm and Tidecaster for heroes.  I wish there was points for a king as well, but there are some hard choices right now.  

I also have never built an IDK list without Ishlaen Guard, they are just too valuable.  Depending on what gets to be Battleline in the new tome, I would say 2 x 10 Thralls, 1 x 10 Reavers, 2 x 3 Ishlaen and the Sharks and the heroes I listed above should sit somewhere around 2k.  

Actually you’ve nailed it with the points lol, but just like with my second list you’ll be 2 drop. I also don’t know if i like the thralls without a thrallmaster but i guess they are solid on their own too. I do miss volturnos though… it’s just he offers so much. It’s not just the command ability, it’s also the bravery and also re-rolls whenever. But if you had to make sacrifices than yeah.

Spoiler

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán
    - Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER
Isharann Tidecaster (105)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Lord of Storm and Sea
    - Spells: Steed of Tides

Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Storm (330)**
    - Artefacts: Cloud of Midnight

BATTLELINE
Namarti Thralls (130)*
Namarti Thralls (130)*
Namarti Reavers (170)*

OTHER
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Harpoons
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Harpoons
Akhelian Allopexes (165)**
- Net
Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**

CORE BATTALIONS:
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by That Guy

[DocKeule]

The King's main benefit is making the eels battleline. So in an Akhelian-heavy list he will probably still have a place. 

If that is still the meta when the new book drops remains to be seen.

[Orbei]

I'm stuck in a morphan mindset at the moment as it is so different from anything I've tried in the past. Just imagine a block of 30 reavers with soulrender support. The soulrender is returning at least 68 points of reavers a turn. With rally and soulrenders you could restore a whole lot of firepower each turn, and with a turtle + thrallmaster's combat wound debuff they could be surprisingly hard to clear out. Ultimately though I think 30 reavers is probably overkill for a single unit.

Maybe two 20 blocks of reavers behind a 30 man unit of thralls? Or 2x 20 man units of each. The turtle and thrallmaster(s) buff everyone. Soulrenders can bring bodies back where needed. 40 thralls, 40 reavers, a turtle, 2x thrallmasters and 2x soulrenders seems interesting. Double thrallmaster in a namarti heavy list has strong appeal to me as both the exploding 6s and -1 to wound are such strong buffs. 

Maybe the soulrenders will still end up being a trap vs simply starting with more bodies and a different enclave. While that could be the case I'd love to tune a morphan list to be viable.

The turtle is coming regardless. That thing is consistently MVP.. in addition to dealing solid damage and being tough, it buffs and does Monster things. 

[DocKeule]

If you go Namarti-Heavy bring Lotann. He gives the re-roll 1s in shooting and combat (plus a bravery buff) at 40 points less than a Thrallmaster.

[GrimDork]

1 hour ago, Orbei said:

I'm stuck in a morphan mindset at the moment as it is so different from anything I've tried in the past. Just imagine a block of 30 reavers with soulrender support. The soulrender is returning at least 68 points of reavers a turn. With rally and soulrenders you could restore a whole lot of firepower each turn, and with a turtle + thrallmaster's combat wound debuff they could be surprisingly hard to clear out. Ultimately though I think 30 reavers is probably overkill for a single unit.

Maybe two 20 blocks of reavers behind a 30 man unit of thralls? Or 2x 20 man units of each. The turtle and thrallmaster(s) buff everyone. Soulrenders can bring bodies back where needed. 40 thralls, 40 reavers, a turtle, 2x thrallmasters and 2x soulrenders seems interesting. Double thrallmaster in a namarti heavy list has strong appeal to me as both the exploding 6s and -1 to wound are such strong buffs. 

Maybe the soulrenders will still end up being a trap vs simply starting with more bodies and a different enclave. While that could be the case I'd love to tune a morphan list to be viable.

The turtle is coming regardless. That thing is consistently MVP.. in addition to dealing solid damage and being tough, it buffs and does Monster things. 

I've always fancied a Morphan build, a bit sad they removed the warscroll battalions in 3rd (for matched play anyway).

A Morphan namarti corps battalion would've been fun, especially like you say with using Rally.

[Orbei]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

If you go Namarti-Heavy bring Lotann. He gives the re-roll 1s in shooting and combat (plus a bravery buff) at 40 points less than a Thrallmaster.

Yeah, Lotann really does need to join the Namarti Party. How to squeeze him in though! My proposed list comes to 1980 points so there's no room. Could swap a thrallmaster out for him but those guys look so great. And if I drop a soulrender morphan becomes a waste.

Hm. Well, 2x 20 thralls, 2x20 reavers, 2 thrallmasters, Lotann, a tidecaster and a turtle is 2000 points on the nose. Goodbye morphan dream. Run them as.. uh.. nautilar? Sure why not nautilar, they have the coolest lore anyway. Thralls who need to charge away from Lotann still reroll hits this way and the tidecaster gets an easy to cast on a 4+ ignore 1 rend spell for one of the thrall blocks or the turtle. One of the thrallmasters gets a tome and mystic shields the other thrall block or turtle.

[Siorra]

17 hours ago, Orbei said:

Yeah, Lotann really does need to join the Namarti Party. How to squeeze him in though! My proposed list comes to 1980 points so there's no room. Could swap a thrallmaster out for him but those guys look so great. And if I drop a soulrender morphan becomes a waste.

Hm. Well, 2x 20 thralls, 2x20 reavers, 2 thrallmasters, Lotann, a tidecaster and a turtle is 2000 points on the nose. Goodbye morphan dream. Run them as.. uh.. nautilar? Sure why not nautilar, they have the coolest lore anyway. Thralls who need to charge away from Lotann still reroll hits this way and the tidecaster gets an easy to cast on a 4+ ignore 1 rend spell for one of the thrall blocks or the turtle. One of the thrallmasters gets a tome and mystic shields the other thrall block or turtle.

Drop the Tidecaster and a Thrallmaster for 2 Soulrenders and keep the dream alive. If you're running Morphann I don't personally see much use in flipping the tide anyway. Just a shame you can't also fit an Eidolon in for the precious +1 wound.

I'm close to finishing painting up a unit of 10 Reavers and I was going to paint the Leviadon next, because I struggle to write lists without it, but unless the void drum changes to 10 wounds it's losing value not buffing the 330 points of sharks. What units do you guys think are safe-bets in the new book?

Also on the shark subject, their new points would be 100% justified if they got their monster keyword back. Missed opportunity.

[Orbei]

4 hours ago, Siorra said:

Drop the Tidecaster and a Thrallmaster for 2 Soulrenders and keep the dream alive. If you're running Morphann I don't personally see much use in flipping the tide anyway. Just a shame you can't also fit an Eidolon in for the precious +1 wound.

I'm close to finishing painting up a unit of 10 Reavers and I was going to paint the Leviadon next, because I struggle to write lists without it, but unless the void drum changes to 10 wounds it's losing value not buffing the 330 points of sharks. What units do you guys think are safe-bets in the new book?

Also on the shark subject, their new points would be 100% justified if they got their monster keyword back. Missed opportunity.

Yeah, not a bad idea. Or maybe drop 10 reavers and the tidecaster for 3 soulrenders. So 2x 20 thralls, 30 reavers, turtle, Lotann, 2x thrallmasters, 3x soulreavers. That's a crazy amount of namarti coming back each turn. The remaining 30 reavers could either hang out as a big block of death or split up with 10 garrisoning a boat. The issue is... Soulrenders sure do stink at fighting and this is now 270 points of soulrenders. The whole thing might be silly. I also wish an eidolon could fit but it's hard to see how.

Sharks not being monsters always makes me sad. Why are dragons monsters but sharks aren't? If they were monsters at the new points value I'd be much more intrigued. The lonely turtle needs monster buddies.

[Rhetoric]

Sharks as monsters would be easy VP for your opponents, I think it’s a positive they are not monsters.  As a hammer they’re going to get targeted regardless. 

[DocKeule]

We should keep in mind that the next AoS Season won't be located in Gur and the monster-focus will fade.

[Orbei]

2 hours ago, Rhetoric said:

Sharks as monsters would be easy VP for your opponents, I think it’s a positive they are not monsters.  As a hammer they’re going to get targeted regardless. 

That's a double edged sword and really depends. Monsters can also score extra victory points and only die once to give up points. I'd say if you're only bringing 1 or 2 it would be easy to either come out ahead or have it be a wash, but taken in mass yeah you're better with them not being monsters. Monsters also get to rampage which is pure bonus power. But it's a moot point sadly. The turtle has to rampage all alone.

[Lord Krungharr]

I think even without the 'Season of Ghur' MONSTERS will still get the rampage stuff as well as counting for 5 models on objectives, just seems proper.  

I've been toying with getting a Leviadon or some Allopexes for allies with my Cities of Sigmar army.  But if the new book is rumored to be on deck I'll wait a bit.  They all fly which is great to join my airforce!

[Rhetoric]

8 hours ago, DocKeule said:

We should keep in mind that the next AoS Season won't be located in Gur and the monster-focus will fade.

That hasn’t been confirmed, I wouldn’t be surprised if we stayed in Ghur to be honest.  It doesn’t feel like much has happened on the AoS front since Dominion and doesn’t seem to be any big blockbuster releases on the immediate horizon. 

[DocKeule]

4 hours ago, Rhetoric said:

That hasn’t been confirmed, I wouldn’t be surprised if we stayed in Ghur to be honest.  It doesn’t feel like much has happened on the AoS front since Dominion and doesn’t seem to be any big blockbuster releases on the immediate horizon. 

I think that is a pretty save bet. GW uses the seasons shake up the meta (aka make us buy more different models). 

Monstrous rampage will very likely stay because that is part of the core rules as is the "monsters count as 5 models". But the grand strategies and battle tactics (+1  victory point when a monster fulfills a tactic) are only GHB and are pretty likely to change.