AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[DocKeule]

Had a fun though a little silly game today. We originally wanted to play 2000 points but my opponent’s son wanted to join in so I brought 4000 points and played against 2000 points of Ogres and 2000 of Gloomspite Gits.

On the one hand is was fun to bring a good chunk of my IDK models on the other hand there was too much plastic on the table to play a normal game.

We started 3 pm and had to stop in round three at 6:30 because the shop closed.

List:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Dhom-Hain
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

LEADERS
Volturnos, High King of the Deep (260)*
- General
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (75)*
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (330)*
Akhelian Thrallmaster (110)**
Akhelian Thrallmaster (110)**
Isharann Soulscryer (140)**
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse

UNITS
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)**
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)**
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)***
- Razorshell Harpoon
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)***
- Razorshell Harpoon
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**

BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (380)*
- Mount Trait: Ancient
Akhelian Leviadon (380)**

CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment
***Hunters of the Heartlands

TOTAL:
3940/2000 WOUNDS: 218
LEADERS: 6/6
BATTLELINES: 10 (3+)
BEHEMOTHS: 2/4
ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3
ALLIES: 0/400
REINFORCED UNITS: 2/4
DROPS: 4

Some pictures:
 

Spoiler

I won’t go through the game turn by turn but here are some observartions:

This was the first time I brought Thrallmasters and I am not sold in them yet. I had about half of my army geared fort he Namarti part and it is tough to keep  more than two or three units in a 12“ bubble. After the first movement phase there was never a point where I could have used more that one oft he buffs on more than one unit.

I went with the expliding sixes and if you can hit a couple of units with that – nice. But on one unit it doesn’t pay for the 110 points. Also there is still the issue of not wanting more than one unit of Thralls in melee at the same time (apart from round 3).
 

10 Thralls were whiped out by five fanatics, 10 thralls got killed by „unleash hell“, another ten put a handful of wounds on a Stonehorn before eight oft hem got slaughtered. Mixed bag I’d say.

My MVPs as far as damage goes where once more the Reavers even when some of my rolls were ridiculously bad. But the Lotann-turtle-Eidolon combination did the trick. (Also they are easier to keep inside the bubbles).

Speaking oft he Eidolon – again he almost failed taking the last two or three wounds oft he Stonehorn. His „good“ attacks did nothing and only a bad save roll saw some oft he fish-attacks got through. Take his melee attacks and make him a durable support hero for 200 points.

[Baz]

Edited March 4, 2022 by Baz

[vinnyt]

poor eidolon. Maybe good with Morrsarr?

 

Hello volturnos with 4 attacks at 2/3/-2/3 ignoring spells on a 3+ and juicing high tide sharks/turtles. Plus he's the magic wound number for cover and turtle. 

They're really making sure that we can't do as much damage in close combat and also at range. Hopefully we get to cheat high tide somehow. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by vinnyt

[woolf]

so both auras getting reduced to 12" and not affecting mounts seems like pretty significant nerfs.. namarti spam seems to be the new idoneth indeed

[JackStreicher]

🤦🏼‍♂️ That +1 attack ability is locked to one tide again and also only lasts that phase.

luckily the Eidolons are really scary and punchy - not

[maitremage]

16 minutes ago, woolf said:

so both auras getting reduced to 12" and not affecting mounts seems like pretty significant nerfs.. namarti spam seems to be the new idoneth indeed

Ok concerning the size of the aura, but Volturnos’ ability works on mounts

And if I read correctly, Eidolon’s ability against heroes is buffed : depends on the points, but maybe the model will not be that bad

[vinnyt]

we can't all be stormcast lmao.

 

It's gonna be fine. This book has a lot of cool stuff in it and I think there are a bunch of hidden gems and synergies. 

5 minutes ago, maitremage said:

t Volturnos’ ability works on mounts

The +1 to hit doesn't but the juicing on high tide does! 

[vinnyt]

Sharks are back at 8 wounds lmfao

 

[vinnyt]

Thralls are insanely good. This book is very good. 

[maitremage]

14 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Thralls are insanely good. This book is very good. 

I don’t have the book, but what do you think about both eidolons and isharanns ?

[Derek]

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

Sharks are back at 8 wounds lmfao

 

Page not found

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

Thralls are insanely good. This book is very good. 

I'm glad Thralls are good. If only I wasn't using mine as Mandrakes...

[vinnyt]

Sorry, looks like he deleted the podcast. Here's the youtube:

 

 

[Rhetoric]

Don’t forget AoA still applies to mounts, and there doesn’t seem to be too many command abilities on the scrolls eating up CP.  So the King and Volty giving out +1 to hit excluding mounts is kind of a freebie.  

[Kitsumy]

so seems my fears were true. we will be forced to only spam thralls..... it would be like a brettonian army without any cavalry. i dont get why everything got nerfed to not affect mounts.

 

but yes, thralls are absurded. and it is really bad for the tome since it will be competitive but only spamming thralls, exactly the same as the years we were forced to only spam eels. i dont see that as healthy tome. would have liked more a more balanced thralls but every aura affecting mounts and ranged again etc.

now we will be a hyper alphaestrike melee army , maybe top army but sadly not my style. lucky i hate tournaments so will keep using my balanced lists, but with so much lower power than usual

[Drofnum]

Anyone thinking GW wasnt going to make one unit way better than the others hasnt been paying attention to AoS, but Idoneth did get Sharks AND Namarti. Sad but true.

In other news I gathered what I could on points and such and how much things have raised. 

Storm             355        +25
Sea                325        
Volturnos         290        +30
Akhelian King    260?    +30
Lotann            115        +35
Tidecaster        150        +45
Soulscryer        150        +10
Soulrender        120        +30
Thrallmaster    110

Ishlaen            195        +40
Morrsarr        195
Allopex            165
Leviadon        500        +120
Thralls            130
Reavers            170

[Kitsumy]

im sure some crazy guy will play like 140 thralls and lothan xDD

or takeout 20 for king, since the highttide cp is really strong

seriously thralls should be at least 145p.. and it is my army. honestwargamer said they even have 4+armor, is that rigth????

Edited March 5, 2022 by Kitsumy

[Nerdkingdan]

 

What happen to Ionrach?

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Nerdkingdan

[JackStreicher]

The rules seem fine so far, the points however are almost Slaanesh level absurd.

The Leviadon is way too overcosted, the eidolons stay too expensive as well. The eels are ludicrously overcosted. And the Soulscryer without his +2 or +3 to charge is pretty useless.

I still don’t get why the Akhelian kings cost 200+ points? Sure they offer some utility, enough to warrant 210 points, but that’s it.

The sharks are 20 points too much.

The points as they are are forcing people into Namarti builds. I guess Namarti didn’t sell too well the last time around.

Edited March 5, 2022 by JackStreicher

[DocKeule]

9 hours ago, vinnyt said:

poor eidolon. Maybe good with Morrsarr?

Nope, maybe with Namarti. That is pretty much the only use I see for Stormy now. Put him in the center of a huge Deathstar of Reavers and Thralls with Lotann and the Thrallmasters. Other than that I see no way he could redeem 335 points right now.

 

7 hours ago, vinnyt said:

Thralls are insanely good. This book is very good. 

Maybe but it will be a completely different army. Thralls have to be stationary to get all the buffs you want.

I am leaning more to the disappointed side right now to be honest. Playing the mobility and unit placement was half of the fun. 

Also I am frankly annoyed on forcefed meta changes like that. 
 

5 hours ago, Rhetoric said:

Don’t forget AoA still applies to mounts, and there doesn’t seem to be too many command abilities on the scrolls eating up CP.  So the King and Volty giving out +1 to hit excluding mounts is kind of a freebie.  

Well but the mounts do most of the work especially with sharks and turtles. The riders don't do jack.

 

[vinnyt]

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Put him in the center of a huge Deathstar of Reavers and Thralls

he doesn't really help out reavers all that much. Super good with Thralls though. And hey, everyone complaining about sharks being 10 wounds should be overjoyed that they're back to 8 wounds! 

I think this is a book with several very cool lists. Thralls are absurdly tanky now and cascading Dhom Hain charges means the enemy has to be careful how they engage em. Sharks are also pretty darn good and on a 2+* save turn 1 near a turtle. Nautilar turtles with -3 rend will obliterate stuff. Reavers are still extremely good. 20 right behind a 3-man shark unit means that enemy alpha strikes just get shot to pieces with their stand and shoot. You also get to chuck down a second boat which is fun and possibly super good to stop enemy charges.

Eels aren't great but they're not unplayable trash. The other great thing is that any balance update for deepkin can easily just be a simple points adjustment as opposed to a big rules rewrite. 

Namarti builds are viable, shark builds are viable, combined arms builds are viable, turtle builds mehhhhhhh, 

The amount of rend -1 shooting we can bring is almost comical and the battle tactics are reasonably achievable.

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Thralls have to be stationary to get all the buffs you want.

?? 

The buffs: 

Thralls need to be fighting an enemy ww 12" of a turtle for +1 to hit

Thralls need to be either ww 12" of a super fast eidolon or lotan for +1 to wound

We need priority for cascading charges in dhom hain

Thralls need to be ww 12" of an insanely fast king for the free high tide

Thralls need to be ww 12" of the thrallmaster at the start of combat.

 

At that point they have been given THE JUICE and will blend whatever they want. They're also at a 4+ save base which is wild. Honestly, I'll probably not even bother with the eidolon to start.

Something like:

King

Tidecaster

Thrallmaster

 

20 thralls

2 Sharks

2 Sharks

 

Turtle

 

Lifeswarm

 

Thralls are on a 2+* save turn 1 and can't be shot at from >12", they're -1 to be wounded in cc, I've got 24 shots at 3/3/-1/d3. I can happily commit multiple units to combat on my turn and fight first with all of them, possibly getting 3 first strike activations in a row. Lifeswarm helps against nurgle chip wounds and the king is basically a roving hunter killer missile after he pops the tide buff. Could be easily convinced to drop thrallmaster and lifeswarm and increase the thralls to 30, assuming that their untargetability to shooting and 2+* save can get them through the alpha strike while easily screening my whole army.

Alternatively, something like:

King 

Tidecaster

 

3 Sharks

3 Sharks

1 shark

20 Reavers

 

Lifeswarm

1955

This list shoots an absurd amount and then shoots some more. Up to 28!!!! shots at 3/3/-1/d3 (one unit is 12 shots at 2/3/-1/d3 thanks to aoa) and then 40 shots at 3/3/-1/1. Stand and shoot is also 40 shots at 3/3/-1/1 so you'll blend most non-kragnos things. Oh yeah also it throws 6 sharks into you and pops the king for asf to guarantee both get to fight first (you asf one, then activate one in your turn). 1955 likely gets you the +1 to wound triumph so make your reavers 40 shots at 2/2/-1/1 for a turn with AoA and see what you can do with that. Bait out an AoD on a different unit and then erase some dragons. If you've ever wanted to shoot a GUO off the table in one turn, this is the army for you.

Or you can do the namarti spam and roll people with a bunch of thralls/turtles (in nautilar) because -3 rend on a turtle is basically a giant "murder whatever I touch" sign and namarti are cute lil blenders now. 

This book is like the opposite of stormcast. You can't just look at the warscroll and immediately be like "oh yeah that's super good". There's a lot of nuance and interaction with rituals and tides and subfaction abilities. The artifacts and command traits are actually pretty good and even the eidolon of the sea might unironically be worth a look. We have OPTIONS now. Sure things are different, but we knew they would be.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by vinnyt

[DocKeule]

Sound like the "honest" wargamer drank a lot of GW's Kool-Aid lately. He straight out contradicts a lot of stuff he himself said not too long ago. 

Now all of a sudden the sharks a "well pointed". When the "Fury..." box came out he said it was silly that a shark had alsmost the same points as a dragon.

Eidolon of the Storm got nerved to ****** and up in points and he talks about how great the unit is. Ass kiss much has he been chewed out after the couple of rants in the lasts weeks?

Sorry to say but 90 % of the changes just suck. This is new-Slaanesh-book bad. 

The current state was that we were still doing OK against mid tier factions with mostly older books. We had an increasingly hard time against the flood of mortal wounds while we could dish out very few and our units had more and more problems with the 2+ or 3+ save plus ward orgies that were more and more common.

Now most buff gets reduced in strength or range and mounts and shooting (which are the main sources of damage for us) can't be buffed at all. We still get almost no wards and won't be dishing out more mortals. 

So out new state will be: We will still do OK against older mid tier books. But what will happen if those get updated eventually? We have a new book and are already behind the curve. I see very little so far that makes us better than the status quo.


The very few silver linings:

- Lotann: He does what the Eidolon of the Storm does at a third of the points

- The once per battle ability of the generic king could be strong as long as you roll high on the D3 and have enough (and the right) units wholly within 12". 


 

[Beliman]

4 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

The current state was that we were still doing OK against mid tier factions with mostly older books.

IDK had 41% winrate vs top 6 armies and increasing to 50-71% to all others (top7). 71% vs the low tier armies means that IDK were destroying them even more than the top 6...

That's the opposite of being in the middle of table.

[DocKeule]

11 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

he doesn't really help out reavers all that much. Super good with Thralls though.

I hadn't watched the video at that point and still thought the Eidolons +1 wound still apply to shooting. 

Well since Lotann gives the exact same buff at a third of the points...
 

14 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

And hey, everyone complaining about sharks being 10 wounds should be overjoyed that they're back to 8 wounds! 

Overjoyed would be a stretch but with a lot of attacks doing more than one damage I think +1 to saves should mitigate more harm.
 

16 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Thralls are absurdly tanky now

How? The ward only applies in the third battle round. 

The improved save profile is certainly nice and with allout defence and maybe a mystic shild we will be able to have one tanky unit of Thralls but you probably still don't want more than one in melee. 

(I see some interesting combination with summoning a second boat and all. But I don't see a basis for this enthusiasm)
 

26 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Eels aren't great but they're not unplayable trash. The other great thing is that any balance update for deepkin can easily just be a simple points adjustment as opposed to a big rules rewrite. 

Ishlaen got considerably less tanky and for me they where the main tool for stalling my opponents. In addition to a 45 points increase that sucks.

 

 

27 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

?? 

The buffs: 

Thralls need to be fighting an enemy ww 12" of a turtle for +1 to hit

Thralls need to be either ww 12" of a super fast eidolon or lotan for +1 to wound

We need priority for cascading charges in dhom hain

Thralls need to be ww 12" of an insanely fast king for the free high tide

Thralls need to be ww 12" of the thrallmaster at the start of combat.

Problem with keeping the Thralls in the bubbles they need to be in is the charge especially if you want to buff more than one unit. (Which I think is important to justify the points for the supports.)
 

35 minutes ago, Beliman said:

IDK had 41% winrate vs top 6 armies and increasing to 50-71% to all others (top7). 71% vs the low tier armies means that IDK were destroying them even more than the top 6...

That's the opposite of being in the middle of table.

That summs up the problem. So in tournaments where you are bound to face mainly top tier armies you will still struggle while in B&B games you will go from balanced to steamrolling.

[Beliman]

15 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

That summs up the problem. So in tournaments where you are bound to face mainly top tier armies you will still struggle while in B&B games you will go from balanced to steamrolling

Basically yes, that's the problem.

No opponent should be easy, and appart from some SCE builds (mainly dragons), all other top6 armies are 2.0. That's the issue that we still have to deal with. /sadface