Tossed into the Mawpot! Soup Armies Thoughts and Feelings?

[Televiper11]

I dunno. From a lore and table perspective, if I see a pack of Magadroths charging me by land and Frigates bearing down on me by air with wave after wave of Hammerers and Ironbreakers behind with Grombrindal rallying the troops from atop the Anvil— damn, get chills just thinking about it.

[zilberfrid]

12 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

I dunno. From a lore and table perspective, if I see a pack of Magadroths charging me by land and Frigates bearing down on me by air with wave after wave of Hammerers and Ironbreakers behind with Grombrindal rallying the troops from atop the Anvil— damn, get chills just thinking about it.

Well, a maximum of four in total between ships and droths.

And you'll have all the time to watch the Disposessed walk over there at a gingerly pace.

[Fairbanks]

1 hour ago, Darnok said:

High Elves have as many kits still in production than Wood Elves (the not-tree variety that is) - and what is left of both is parts of CoS.

Other than that: excellent summary, thank you!

Had to check:

Wood Elves (3): Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers, Nomad Prince, Sisters of the Thorn/Wild Riders

High Elves (3): Sisters of the Watch/Shadow Warriors, Phoenix Guard, Phoenix Kit

 

I filed Wood Elves under Sylvaneth mostly because there was a Dryad/Treelord set that came out with the 8th Edition book, and it was always a sign to me that there were no pointy ears. High Elves on the other hand were gone when the Cities book dropped and Lumineth didn't come out for another 8 or so months, and didn't fit everything old High Elf until this year's releases.

[sandlemad]

I don't think people are even coming at it from a pure Thermian in-universe "FS and KO would never work together" POV because obviously they would and do, but rather a thematic or broad aesthetic POV; folks don't want one side to try and plug the holes of another, or throw together two incongruous playstyles and looks.

Which is where I think this point stands particularly:

8 hours ago, DoctorPerils said:

Can I just say I still haven't seen anybody give a reason that it should be specifically Duardin who are targeted for souping up together? Like, DoK and IDK actually have joint enmity of Teclis, both reside in Ulgu, both like scales and have spiky swirls and waves in their iconography - thematically and visually, they are _way_ closer than Kharadron and Fyreslayers, or Ironjawz and Bonesplittaz. Plus it's not like we don't have enough aelven factions. Or how about DoK mixed with Vampires ? Both love blood and wear a mix of spiky gothic armour and pale bare skin? I could go on with more wacky combinations, especially as I like AoS to feel like its own thing rather than weighed down by WHFB's baggage

It's just lumping together two seriously different AoS-native factions* for the sake of sales, a cynical and lazy attempt to sell more of one to players of the other. Realistically this translates more to selling FS to KO players - which is where we get a bit of the "don't drag me down with you" feel from KO players - or attempting to prop up a sadly poorly designed range with a lot of problems with a better and more popular one.

The whole impulse on the part of fans to see the good in this is clearly coming from a place of desperation, as is apparent from the number of people who are explicitly framing this as 'not ideal but better than being left hanging/being squatted, even if it comes at a cost of new releases/character/attention/background'. It might be, barely, but it's begging for scraps and moreover not even particularly in line with how GW has treated at least some of its AoS-native factions.

* this is particularly important and what makes it significantly different to e.g. Mawtribes (two branches of an older WHFB army, one of which had its own identity properly developed for AoS) or Warclans (one partially new AoS faction lumped in with a polar opposite purely WHFB faction, filling in the gaps in one line with another).

Combining KO and FS would be closer to combining Ossiarch and Nighthaunt, or Lumineth and Idoneth; they're all  broadly spiritually descended from units that shared WHFB army books but GW clearly sought to develop them as their own distinct entities.

Edited May 27, 2021 by sandlemad

[zilberfrid]

3 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

I don't think people are even coming at it from a pure Thermian in-universe "FS and KO would never work together" POV because obviously they would and do, but rather a thematic or broad aesthetic POV; folks don't want one side to try and plug the holes of another, or throw together two incongruous playstyles and looks.

Which is where I think this point stands particularly:

It's just lumping together two seriously different AoS-native factions* for the sake of sales, a cynical and lazy attempt to sell more of one to players of the other. Realistically this translates to sell FS to KO players - which is where we get a bit of the "don't drag me down with you" feel from KO players - or attempting to prop up a sadly poorly designed range with a lot of problems with a better and more popular one.

The whole impulse on the part of fans to see the good in this is clearly coming from a place of desperation, as is apparent from the number of people who are explicitly framing this as 'not ideal but better than being left hanging/being squatted, even if it comes at a cost of new releases/character/attention/background'. It might be, barely, but it's begging for scraps and moreover not even particularly in line with how GW has treated at least some of its AoS-native factions.

* this is particularly important and what makes it significantly different to e.g. Mawtribes (two branches of an older WHFB army, one of which had its own identity properly developed, making a ) or Warclans (one partially new AoS faction lumped in with a polar opposite purely WHFB faction, filling in the gaps in one line with another).

Combining KO and FS would be closer to combining Ossiarch and Nighthaunt, or Lumineth and Idoneth; they're all  broadly spiritually descended from units that shared WHFB army books but GW clearly sought to develop them as their own distinct entities.

I'd say Nighthaunt and Nagash, as well as Lumi- and Idoneth have more in common. They at least share a god.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

To be clear, as big a fan of Monty Python as I may be my desire for Dwarf soup is not simply always looking on the bright side of life but a proactive desire based on owning both factions and loving the potential their combination would create.

As importantly I actually see it as the most direct way to get more models.  As others have pointed out soup doesn’t clearly or cleanly differentiate who gets more new models.  The most obvious factor appears to be… importance to the big story.  Slaanesh awakens?  They get lots of new models.  Nagash goes on offensive against Chaos.  Get OBR as new faction.  Teclis takes the fight to Nagash.  Get LRL.  Nagash loses the fight loosening his grip on his legions.  Get Soulblight.  Age of Destruction.  Get Cruel Boyz.

To be clear, I recognize the models come first and story second.  That said I think the model makers have an inspiration loop with the narrative.  Could KO suddenly leap to the forefront of the big story on own?  Maybe.  But a massive story about reuniting and reclaiming to me seems much more likely than that…

[Neverchosen]

46 minutes ago, trolemon said:

Just bring back the miners kit for miners. They were already plastic

So strange question, what happens to the molds for old plastic miniatures. If they released a true Dispossessed faction (Soup or not) would they use all new sculpts or revive old minis? I feel like with the change to Cities and the retirement of classic Dispossessed we lost a number of great sculpts. I know they do limited runs of old Resin/Metal kits could they bring back the Ol' Dwarves?

[PraetorDragoon]

17 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

So strange question, what happens to the molds for old plastic miniatures. If they released a true Dispossessed faction (Soup or not) would they use all new sculpts or revive old minis? I feel like with the change to Cities and the retirement of classic Dispossessed we lost a number of great sculpts. I know they do limited runs of old Resin/Metal kits could they bring back the Ol' Dwarves?

Any plastic Dwarves will be new sculpts. GW doesn't return plastic kits.

[Greybeard86]

43 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

Combining KO and FS would be closer to combining Ossiarch and Nighthaunt, or Lumineth and Idoneth; they're all  broadly spiritually descended from units that shared WHFB army books but GW clearly sought to develop them as their own distinct entities.

And now maybe they want to undo this, as they no longer believe that AoS1 factions are viable in the new design / business paradigm.

If they obliterated WHFB, they sure as heck can merge two factions.

As we all know, it comes down to them coins. If they believe KO have developed enough of a separate identity that it is a worthwhile (profitable) brand on its own, they'll keep them. So there is some hope for those who'd prefer it that way.

[Joseph Mackay]

My thoughts? Soup books are lazy, low effort rush jobs used to get armies updated quickly when gw can’t be bothered releasing new models but needs to update the rules. However, my opinion on each soup book is very different.

Legions Of Nagash is the only soup book that felt ok, however, my belief was that each faction included would eventually be expanded into their own battletomes (like Nighthaunt was) and then Legions would go away. I personally felt Deadwalkers and Deathrattle would have been retired (effectively replaced by Flesh-Eater Courts and Osiarch Bonereapers), with Soulblight getting expanded. I haven’t checked out Soulblight Gravelords yet, the Cursed City stuff being forced to take them together killed that army for me. I’ll buy the models I like for my Grand Alliance Death army though. The fact they made an ‘elite’ foot vampire unit and then didn’t release them properly, locked them into a bundle for 750ish points and can’t be Battleline just kills it for me, it’s the only real thing Soulblight (the original vampire subfaction) needed to be decent.

Cities Of Sigmar in my opinion is on life support. That book won’t ever get a new version. I suspect some factions within like Dispossessed to get expanded into their own battletomes eventually, but Cities will be retired. The book was a lazy rush job, the lore was fine but the rules were horrible. They took away the flavour and uniqueness the individual units had and gave them all the same stats and rules so no matter weather you took an aelf, Duardin or human, the rules were all the same. Duardin therefore lost their anti-magic banners and the allegiance abilities are worse than the Dispossessed ones from GHB (which I believe are actually still valid since they haven’t actually been replaced).

Orruk Warclans was fine from a rules point of view, but really should have gotten new models - a Megaboss on Goregrunna was the minimum I expected, maybe a battering ram/catapult thing? Endless Spells should have happened 

Ogor Mawtribes, much the same as Orruks, fine but needed new models 

[Skreech Verminking]

22 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

Any plastic Dwarves will be new sculpts. GW doesn't return plastic kits.

Yet Lumineth exist

[zilberfrid]

12 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yet Lumineth exist

Which are new sculpts, not taking the molds out of storage

[PraetorDragoon]

12 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yet Lumineth exist

Lumineth are all new kits.

But your skaveny presence reminded me that indeed, sometimes plastic kits return. Island of Blood, the once 8th WHFB starter set, had a glorious moment of returning in AoS before it was discontinued.

[sandlemad]

31 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

And now maybe they want to undo this, as they no longer believe that AoS1 factions are viable in the new design / business paradigm.

If they obliterated WHFB, they sure as heck can merge two factions.

As we all know, it comes down to them coins. If they believe KO have developed enough of a separate identity that it is a worthwhile (profitable) brand on its own, they'll keep them. So there is some hope for those who'd prefer it that way.

And that’s the sad thing, that souping these two is so very clearly a business-driven decision overriding distinct aesthetics, identities, playstyle, background for the sake of transparently pushing sales. FS players, buy KO. KO players, buy FS. No need to spend effort on new minis or distinct new rules, it’s just looking at profit margins, shrugging and deciding this is easier than supporting them properly.

[Duke Eligos]

54 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

To be clear, as big a fan of Monty Python as I may be my desire for Dwarf soup is not simply always looking on the bright side of life but a proactive desire based on owning both factions and loving the potential their combination would create.

As importantly I actually see it as the most direct way to get more models.  As others have pointed out soup doesn’t clearly or cleanly differentiate who gets more new models.  The most obvious factor appears to be… importance to the big story.  Slaanesh awakens?  They get lots of new models.  Nagash goes on offensive against Chaos.  Get OBR as new faction.  Teclis takes the fight to Nagash.  Get LRL.  Nagash loses the fight loosening his grip on his legions.  Get Soulblight.  Age of Destruction.  Get Cruel Boyz.

To be clear, I recognize the models come first and story second.  That said I think the model makers have an inspiration loop with the narrative.  Could KO suddenly leap to the forefront of the big story on own?  Maybe.  But a massive story about reuniting and reclaiming to me seems much more likely than that…

I'm not interested in a story about reuniting and reclaiming. 

And reclaiming what exactly? The old Karaks? Why would I be interested in old crapy underground complexes when Sky-ports are cooler in every single way?

I'm interested in the skies of the Mortal Realms and how the Kharadron interact with them. Changing the focus to an underground reconquista completely changes the narrative and the setting in which my faction operates.

I don't mind the odd few mentions of Kharadron pillaging (not conquering) ancient karaks, but I want the main focus to remain on the skies of the Mortal Realms and the sky-ports.

I will also never own Fyreslayer or Dispossessed models, even more so if they drag my faction down... I hold grudges, believe it or not, and reducing the Kharadron to a soup tome is one hell of a grudge.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

2 minutes ago, Duke Eligos said:

I'm interested in the skies of the Mortal Realms and how the Kharadron interact with them. Changing the focus to an underground reconquista completely changes the narrative and the setting in which my faction operates.

Here’s hoping then that those sky battle rules take off!  Love the sky theme, don’t get me wrong, just makes it hard for them to become central to the “big story” which seems to largely be ground based. 

Who knows though.  One edition’s release theory doesn’t determine the next and there’s commentary about expanding factions so maybe you won’t need to be as central to the Ghur narrative thus go round. 

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Which are new sculpts, not taking the molds out of storage

Sorry mate I thought we were talking about dispossesseds never getting old dwarf warriors reinvented in a new kit.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Skreech Verminking]

6 minutes ago, Duke Eligos said:

I'm not interested in a story about reuniting and reclaiming. 

And reclaiming what exactly? The old Karaks? Why would I be interested in old crapy underground complexes when Sky-ports are cooler in every single way?

I'm interested in the skies of the Mortal Realms and how the Kharadron interact with them. Changing the focus to an underground reconquista completely changes the narrative and the setting in which my faction operates.

I don't mind the odd few mentions of Kharadron pillaging (not conquering) ancient karaks, but I want the main focus to remain on the skies of the Mortal Realms and the sky-ports.

I will also never own Fyreslayer or Dispossessed models, even more so if they drag my faction down... I hold grudges, believe it or not, and reducing the Kharadron to a soup tome is one hell of a grudge.

You hold grudges as a Ko player?

Are you certain that you’re playing the right dwarfs?

[Skreech Verminking]

17 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

Lumineth are all new kits.

But your skaveny presence reminded me that indeed, sometimes plastic kits return. Island of Blood, the once 8th WHFB starter set, had a glorious moment of returning in AoS before it was discontinued.

So considering that the old blood island kit sold pretty well, does that mean, that the only

 reasons why acolytes weren’t discontinued (and hopefully never will be) is becauses tgey

 have a huge stock of them and still have no glue, in how they are going to get rid of them,

who thought that old metal models would save a race😂😂

Edited May 27, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Greybeard86]

16 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

And that’s the sad thing, that souping these two is so very clearly a business-driven decision overriding distinct aesthetics, identities, playstyle, background for the sake of transparently pushing sales. FS players, buy KO. KO players, buy FS. No need to spend effort on new minis or distinct new rules, it’s just looking at profit margins, shrugging and deciding this is easier than supporting them properly.

I knows clearly a lot of people love KO, and I can see why. But let’s be frank, the whole hyper divided small factions was also a business decision. They just seem to have hit the right spot with KO, for some people. 
 

Personally, I’d like for them to commit a tad more to factions. It sucks yo get swiped aside with no warning or consolation, like they did with chorfs.

[Duke Eligos]

3 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Here’s hoping then that those sky battle rules take off!  Love the sky theme, don’t get me wrong, just makes it hard for them to become central to the “big story” which seems to largely be ground based. 

Who knows though.  One edition’s release theory doesn’t determine the next and there’s commentary about expanding factions so maybe you won’t need to be as central to the Ghur narrative thus go round. 

One of the major new developments in the Mortal Realms' narrative is the Cursed Skies. The SCE already shrugged the problem off with their new armour, but the skies are still cursed across the Realms.

It would be painfully easy to give them narrative weight since they are the dominant power in the skies of the setting. 

5 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

You hold grudges as a Ko player?

Are you certain that you’re playing the right dwarfs?

Jokes aside, the kharadron do have Grudgehalls and the Kharadron Code has a grudge-clause to grant Kharadron Rune of Marks

I'm an old dwarf fan who grew to prefer the innovative take on dwarven tropes that KO have. There isn't a lot of unique dwarf factions in major fantasy IPs (I'd even argue that KO are the only one).. so losing it because GW doesn't know what to do with the old tropes that we've known for decades is soul-crushing.

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

I knows clearly a lot of people love KO, and I can see why. But let’s be frank, the whole hyper divided small factions was also a business decision. They just seem to have hit the right spot with KO, for some people. 

Personally, I’d like for them to commit a tad more to factions. It sucks yo get swiped aside with no warning or consolation, like they did with chorfs.

GW is just showing their colours.

• It doesn't matter what they said before.
• It doesn't matter whether your faction is doing well or not
• Lore is especially easy to toss aside
• Identity is merely a speedbump

It only matters how they think they can make the numbers look good. While rampant capitalism is a Kharadron mehret, GW can be tossed aside about as easily as they toss dwarves aside.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

12 minutes ago, Duke Eligos said:

One of the major new developments in the Mortal Realms' narrative is the Cursed Skies. The SCE already shrugged the problem off with their new armour, but the skies are still cursed across the Realms.

It would be painfully easy to give them narrative weight since they are the dominant power in the skies of the setting

I’d love to see a narrative about them breaking the curse.

As far as new models go though… the Cursed Skies for now aren’t represented on the table top so harder to create a through line to this is why this new unit is needed.  (Though could easily justify a new named character.)

That said I’d love for the Cursed Skies to create physical manifestations that could be the other half if a new battle box for KO.

For now though I’m just left with the lessons of “Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer” and “Green Lantern”:  that no matter how ominous the clouds are, hard to get audiences  to care about people fighting them…

[silverstu]

As an old longbeard I love my Kharadrons, love their lore and I'm excited by the idea if them getting expanded and becoming a deeper faction. I can see the potential in Fyreslayers too , plenty of scope to do really interesting design ideas with them which I'd love to see as well [someone mentioned a short story with Fyreslayers riding giant ground sloths and wearing furs which sounds epic!]. However the pragmatic dwarf in me also notes that dwarfs as a race need more variation beyond these two nations- the classic dwarf tropes of smiths/heavily armoured warriors/warmachines/ miners /brewers/ rangers and rune weapons all could do with being brought into AoS and there's the problem. There are already what 24 factions? Seraphon, Skaven and Beastmen have had  virtually nothing so far in AoS, CoS need fresh models, Malerions faction has to arrive and I'd love Kurnothi to appear next to Sylvaneth. Add to that this rumour of a combined dwarf book - Grungni's grand alliance or Duardin Nations is persistent and our own rumour monger has all but come out and said its coming, wether we like it not its happening. On the plus side I reckon its coming soon after launch as its so mentioned, maybe 3rd battle tome after Stormcast and the new greenskins. I also think it won't just be Fyreslayers and KO -I think there will be a big release of another updated dwarf faction which will sandwich between the two. Probably all three will be available to be taken as pure armies, hopefully we will get some new lore, new artwork and possibly in the not too distant future at least the odd kit for Fyreslayers and KO. A combined book gives a place to explore all the aspects of the dwarf culture, hopefully we can benefit. I just don't see the release schedule allowing a new dwarf faction AND an substantial model updates to KO or Slayers. I'll take new models over nothing everyday of the week. 

On the subject of Ko following Grungni- they already did in Br:Belakor and they did not because he is a god, they did because, as their culture, he is a good leader. Kharadron value skill and good leadership- Grungni can offer these and gain them as allies [not blind followers]. Again I would prefer serrate books and lots of new dwarfs of varying factions but that looks highly unlikely so I'll hope for some new dwarfs in the immediate future and new KO in the longer term. 

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, Greybeard86 said:

I knows clearly a lot of people love KO, and I can see why. But let’s be frank, the whole hyper divided small factions was also a business decision. They just seem to have hit the right spot with KO, for some people. 

Oh it was but it often enough worked out well. KO is an example but honestly you can point to any AoS-native faction made up of entirely or largely new kits and find it works well, apart from FS really.
 

The principle of ‘take an aspect  of an old WHFB army and expand’ has been done both with and without actual new minis. When it works (KO, Sylvaneth, IDK), you get something fresh and new which still has visual breadth and variety, interesting background and multiple theoretical play styles, even with a range that’s smaller than any one WHFB. When it doesn’t work, well, then you get FS or to a lesser extent Ironjaws (or sometimes you get a sufficiently brilliant core idea that it carries a limited range, like with FEC).

It was no less a business decision but at least it was creating something new and forged on in a new direction. Combining FS/KO, two brand new AoS factions, would essentially be a transparent admission that they’re giving up on the approach in favour of... not even consolidation but wheel-spinning and phoning it in, and diminished efforts for both FS and KO. Less background, less art, less space, less attention.

Completely agree that some consolidation and expansion of existing factions would be best. I don’t think that would actually fix the problems of the poor disastrous FS range but it would help and would be preferable to just giving up on them and lumping them in with another faction. Some sort of Ynnari style approach for Grungni though, cool, down with that.

Edited May 27, 2021 by sandlemad