AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Ghoooouls]

2 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

I have had a lot of luck in our local meta with a block of 30 skeletons, supported with a necromancer (Danse) and Vamp Lord (mystic shield) on foot.  I think people tend to forget that they hit on 3's wound on 4's, and if your playing Vrykos they wound on 3's with that vamp lord nearby. Toss in the vamp lords command ability and suddenly all 30 models are +1 attack (so 60A @ 3+ 3+), not bad.  I've had quite a few opponents underestimate them and lose large pricy models to that swarm of regenerating skeletons. Also at 30, they are really hard to move if your opponent doesn't have a lot of spells/shooting. 

They can definitely be 'okay', but in that scenario you're relying on 30 models being wholly within 9 inches in vyrkos, with a vampire and necromancer as support, with two spells successfully cast AND a command ability on them, for them to get 60 attacks 3s 3s no rend damage 1 if none at all have died, which they will have because their ability makes you want them to be attacked first so you can try and bring some back, but in reality most of the time it doesn't work well and you may have well just attacked first.

That's 520 points put in to get 60 attacks from other buffing units. Let's say none are dead and you have that +1 attack off from the vampire and are wholly within 9 for +1 to wound, that's an average of 13-14 damage vs a 4+ save unit, if you're somehow in the perfect situation where all 30 of your models can attack a single unit whilst also somehow being wholly within 9 of your vampire. With van hels, if somehow none at all die and they can still somehow all attack again, that's another 13-14 damage. Let's call it 28 total in complete perfect scenario - 8 damage average to a 2+ save.

What else could you have done those abilities on? +1 attack and van hels on grave guard? On zombies? +1 save command instead on blood knights? On your lord?

I think trying to make skellies anything other than a tarpit is pointless. And they're not even the greatest tarpit as they just seem to cost too much with their only ability being a bit of a gimmick and finicky to play around wuth unless your opponent makes silly mistakes. Our other options offer good tarpits at decent costs and have much better uses other than also being a tarpit.

Now imagine you spent those 520 points on zombies instead of skeletons, you'd have the necro, vamp and 40 zombies with points left to spare. 40 zombies attacking in the same scenario, they do around 33 damage average to a 4+ save, with the majority being mortal wounds so actually have a similar output, at 29 damage average to a 2+ save(!!!), and any kills adding a zombie to the unit on a 2+. With 10 extra models (40 zombs vs 30 skellies), you're able to have a good tank/tarpit as well as more board presence, could take 2x units of 20 instead of one blob too, and can sit outside of combat to ensure they're screening, but can still pile in once all your important stuff has already attacked.

In fact, someone in this thread was asking how to combat fulminators - zombies.

Also if you're going 520 points just to get a tarpit that can deal damage, you could even just go 60 zombies. Or 40 wolves (80 wounds, 5+ save, 3s and 3s on charge without needing buffs nearby, more board presence, quicker etc.) Or even 40ish graveguard with greatweapons. (Downside being not all one unit I guess)

It irritates me that their only gimmick is in the combat phase you have to let them get attacked and then for those that died in that specific phase, on a 4+ come back. So even if let's say 20 skeletons die in a turn, 5 to shooting, 5 to magic, 10 to combat. You roll 10 dice and 5 (on average) come back - 5 'extra' attacks at 3s 4s no rend damage 1 will do nothing, then you take battleshock at -20 still. Whereas if you just attacked first, before the 10 died in combat, you get 10 'extra' attacks compared to 5. You have 10 left on the board at -20 battleshock compared to 15 left on the board at -20 battleshock. More than likely they're all running or you save them with a command (yet another sink for resources on a chaff tarpit unit) it starts to become very expensive when your 'cheap 280ish' points of chaff actually need multiple heroes nearby casting spells, doing multiple commands per turn and keeping you within an aura just to become 'okay'.

And let's be honest, a big blob that moves 4 inches isn't that hard to play around, the majority of armies have ranged damage that can whittle them down without even allowing you to trigger a few coming back in combat.

Change it so their ability is for all dead models from the entire turn, or heck even from the entire GAME, and I'd take them. As it is currently, I'd only ever consider them if I had points to spare to threaten from graves - as for 20 points more (per 10 skeletons) I can get DOUBLE the amount of models in zombies. That's way better than coming back in combat phase on a 4+. With that said I'd probably just take bats over skellies if I had points to spare anyway.

Edit - sorry for the long post...Don't mean to sound like a naysayer here - it's all dice at the end of the day and fun. I've just given skellies so many chances from success stories I've heard, and they're always massively underwhelming when i know there's far better choices in the tome (and choices that I actually really like aesthetically and thematically), so I'm just never really gonna use them again. I've had a lot of good success without them, using other units available to us as tarpits and screens.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Ghoooouls

[Bruteforce]

4 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

They can definitely be 'okay', but in that scenario you're relying on 30 models being wholly within 9 inches in vyrkos, with a vampire and necromancer as support, with two spells successfully cast AND a command ability on them, for them to get 60 attacks 3s 3s no rend damage 1 if none at all have died, which they will have because their ability makes you want them to be attacked first so you can try and bring some back, but in reality most of the time it doesn't work well and you may have well just attacked first.

That's 520 points put in to get 60 attacks from other buffing units. Let's say none are dead and you have that +1 attack off from the vampire and are wholly within 9 for +1 to wound, that's an average of 13-14 damage vs a 4+ save unit, if you're somehow in the perfect situation where all 30 of your models can attack a single unit whilst also somehow being wholly within 9 of your vampire. With van hels, if somehow none at all die and they can still somehow all attack again, that's another 13-14 damage. Let's call it 28 total in complete perfect scenario - 8 damage average to a 2+ save.

What else could you have done those abilities on? +1 attack and van hels on grave guard? On zombies? +1 save command instead on blood knights? On your lord?

I think trying to make skellies anything other than a tarpit is pointless. And they're not even the greatest tarpit as they just seem to cost too much with their only ability being a bit of a gimmick and finicky to play around wuth unless your opponent makes silly mistakes. Our other options offer good tarpits at decent costs and have much better uses other than also being a tarpit.

Now imagine you spent those 520 points on zombies instead of skeletons, you'd have the necro, vamp and 40 zombies with points left to spare. 40 zombies attacking in the same scenario, they do around 33 damage average to a 4+ save, with the majority being mortal wounds so actually have a similar output, at 29 damage average to a 2+ save(!!!), and any kills adding a zombie to the unit on a 2+. With 10 extra models (40 zombs vs 30 skellies), you're able to have a good tank/tarpit as well as more board presence, could take 2x units of 20 instead of one blob too, and can sit outside of combat to ensure they're screening, but can still pile in once all your important stuff has already attacked.

In fact, someone in this thread was asking how to combat fulminators - zombies.

Also if you're going 520 points just to get a tarpit that can deal damage, you could even just go 60 zombies. Or 40 wolves (80 wounds, 5+ save, 3s and 3s on charge without needing buffs nearby, more board presence, quicker etc.) Or even 40ish graveguard with greatweapons. (Downside being not all one unit I guess)

It irritates me that their only gimmick is in the combat phase you have to let them get attacked and then for those that died in that specific phase, on a 4+ come back. So even if let's say 20 skeletons die in a turn, 5 to shooting, 5 to magic, 10 to combat. You roll 10 dice and 5 (on average) come back - 5 'extra' attacks at 3s 4s no rend damage 1 will do nothing, then you take battleshock at -20 still. Whereas if you just attacked first, before the 10 died in combat, you get 10 'extra' attacks compared to 5. You have 10 left on the board at -20 battleshock compared to 15 left on the board at -20 battleshock. More than likely they're all running or you save them with a command (yet another sink for resources on a chaff tarpit unit) it starts to become very expensive when your 'cheap 280ish' points of chaff actually need multiple heroes nearby casting spells, doing multiple commands per turn and keeping you within an aura just to become 'okay'.

And let's be honest, a big blob that moves 4 inches isn't that hard to play around, the majority of armies have ranged damage that can whittle them down without even allowing you to trigger a few coming back in combat.

Change it so their ability is for all dead models from the entire turn, or heck even from the entire GAME, and I'd take them. As it is currently, I'd only ever consider them if I had points to spare to threaten from graves - as for 20 points more (per 10 skeletons) I can get DOUBLE the amount of models in zombies. That's way better than coming back in combat phase on a 4+. With that said I'd probably just take bats over skellies if I had points to spare anyway.

Edit - sorry for the long post...Don't mean to sound like a naysayer here - it's all dice at the end of the day and fun. I've just given skellies so many chances from success stories I've heard, and they're always massively underwhelming when i know there's far better choices in the tome (and choices that I actually really like aesthetically and thematically), so I'm just never really gonna use them again. I've had a lot of good success without them, using other units available to us as tarpits and screens.

Thanks for this, i've been looking for a good justification of zombies vs skellies in vyrkos

[Ghoooouls]

3 hours ago, Bruteforce said:

Thanks for this, i've been looking for a good justification of zombies vs skellies in vyrkos

I usually have minimum 3x 20 zombies - they can be deadly enough on their own or with one buff like +1 attack, 20 wounds with a 6+ ward is annoying enough to not want to risk getting stuck in with them, you have multiple units that can come back once dead, can spread out across the board etc. And only cost 345 for 3 units of 20  they really are a very versatile unit.

can also have a unit of 20 behind another unit of chaff so when the other unit gets charged, zombies can pile in 6 once the other unit is dead and dish out some mortals, or just use them as fast tarpits (essentially they can run and still fight because they don't need to charge, giving them a threat range of 16 inches with a run of 6).

the reroll casts is an immense battle trait for vyrkos alone, but if you want to ensure you're making use of the +1 to wound one I'd just take a couple of units of GG with great weapons as some hammers even just 10 at 3s 3s can dish out some disgusting damage, and they're soooo easy to buff (+1 attack from vamp, +1 from radukar, +1 from mannfred etc. van hels).

10 GG with no buffs do an average of 8.5 damage to a unit with a 4+ save.

Give them a single super easy buff of +1 attack and +1 to wound from a vampire nearby and that jumps to over 17 damage average to the 4+ save, from a unit of 10!

Now if radukar has charged and popped his command aura of +1 attack, the vamp does +1 command on them and they've got van hels, their average skyrockets to 45(!) Damage average to a 4+ save from a unit of 10 guys - granted this is if none die before then pile in a second time, but it's pretty fun to see how deadly they can be.

This also comes back to my previous post about 520 points to get skellies to be 'okay', 10 GG are 140, vamp and necro makes that 405, 20 zombies make that 520 total. You've got 20 zombies with surprising movement capabilities, the threat of mortal wounds and massive pile in even if they aren't in combat to be your chaff/screen, 10 grave guard with the vampire and necromancer to get van hels and +1 attack as your hammer - ideal scenario with all 10 GG attacking as your hammer with +1 from vamp and van hels and +1 to wound vyrkos average damage below:

Vs 2+ save - 20

Vs 3+ save - 27

Vs 4+ save - 34

Vs 5+ - 41

Vs 6+ - 48

Also something to bare in mind is its incredibly easy to get 20 zombies/gg/skellies all fighting at once as their bases are under an inch, meaning they can attack over each other if they're base to base in two ranks. Even easier to get just 10 GG attacking, not so easy to get 30 skellies attacking.

It comes back to my point about trying to buff skellies to be anything other than a tarpit is pointless, but they're just not such a great tarpit that I'd take them over other units.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Ghoooouls

[Gery81]

6 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

can also have a unit of 20 behind another unit of chaff so when the other unit gets charged, zombies can pile in 6 once the other unit is dead and dish out some mortals, or just use them as fast tarpits (essentially they can run and still fight because they don't need to charge, giving them a threat range of 16 inches with a run of 6).

 

This is how we deal with hammers charging into our screens. Set the zombies up behind the screen, and once that screen died, pile the zombies in just to tag that unit (1 zombie within 2,9 inches will do). Then counter-charge with our hammers. No re-deploy, no unleash hell for them. This is what I am practicing now, how to set my units up, so that I can pile-in the zombies, without blocking the charges of my other unit. The fact that models piling in don't have to move closer, just have to keep the distance helps (they can move around the target unit, getting out of the way). Also, we don't necessarily want to put or GG in the grave. I doubt that Longstrikes can deal with a VLoZD, and a unit (or 2) GG in one turn.

[Btimmy]

2 hours ago, Gery81 said:

This is how we deal with hammers charging into our screens. Set the zombies up behind the screen, and once that screen died, pile the zombies in just to tag that unit (1 zombie within 2,9 inches will do). Then counter-charge with our hammers. No re-deploy, no unleash hell for them. This is what I am practicing now, how to set my units up, so that I can pile-in the zombies, without blocking the charges of my other unit. The fact that models piling in don't have to move closer, just have to keep the distance helps (they can move around the target unit, getting out of the way). Also, we don't necessarily want to put or GG in the grave. I doubt that Longstrikes can deal with a VLoZD, and a unit (or 2) GG in one turn.

The problem with this is that the zombies are the screen, so unless you are bringing a ton of throwaway units, you will need to have the GG behind the zombies expecting the zombie screen to die. In which case the OP likely just leaves the 4" move GG alone and goes elsewhere. I haven't had a lot of trouble getting GG in though, 9inch charge with a reroll is just under 50% I believe. Best case if you try for it at the bottom of a turn, thus even if you fail you have a chance at the double to move up and try again. 

[Gery81]

9 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

The problem with this is that the zombies are the screen, so unless you are bringing a ton of throwaway units, you will need to have the GG behind the zombies expecting the zombie screen to die. In which case the OP likely just leaves the 4" move GG alone and goes elsewhere. I haven't had a lot of trouble getting GG in though, 9inch charge with a reroll is just under 50% I believe. Best case if you try for it at the bottom of a turn, thus even if you fail you have a chance at the double to move up and try again. 

I see a lot of lists running 2 units of zombies, 2 units of wolves, and a unit of fell bats. Also 3 units of zombies can do it too, just string out 1 or 2, and leave the 3rd behind them. Or just 3 minimum skeleton units as the front screen. It is no way a sure thing, moving all these parts is tricky, but that is what makes this army interesting. I mainly like to use this against Ironjaws. No shooting to worry about, and just dare my opponent to take the first turn charges, and risk the counterpunch.

[Le Chef]

So what would be a competitive Vyrkos army composition that would do well in tournaments? I have the feeling Vyrkos has more potential, but I have always had better results with Kastelai so far.

For Vyrkos I would think  about 2x20 GG, some wolves (either 1 block of 30 or multiple blocks or 10?), Bella and/or Radukar? Furthermore I'm a big fan of both Vhordrai and Mannfred. They work well together, but might not both fit in a Vyrkos list due to their points and the other heroes + bodies that need to be included.

[Ghoooouls]

32 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

So what would be a competitive Vyrkos army composition that would do well in tournaments? I have the feeling Vyrkos has more potential, but I have always had better results with Kastelai so far.

For Vyrkos I would think  about 2x20 GG, some wolves (either 1 block of 30 or multiple blocks or 10?), Bella and/or Radukar? Furthermore I'm a big fan of both Vhordrai and Mannfred. They work well together, but might not both fit in a Vyrkos list due to their points and the other heroes + bodies that need to be included.

I've tested out manny in vyrkos with radukar and some cheap foot heroes alongside 3x 20 zombies, 1x10 wolves (and 10 summoned from rad) and a sprinkling of blood knights and units of 10 grave guard, worked really well - think it'll be too hard to get manny in with Bella and radukar unless you go really hero heavy. But manny + rad did some serious work alongside the blood knights with +1 attack from radukar and +1 to hit and wound from mannfred, absolutely amazing.

[Le Chef]

11 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

I've tested out manny in vyrkos with radukar and some cheap foot heroes alongside 3x 20 zombies, 1x10 wolves (and 10 summoned from rad) and a sprinkling of blood knights and units of 10 grave guard, worked really well - think it'll be too hard to get manny in with Bella and radukar unless you go really hero heavy. But manny + rad did some serious work alongside the blood knights with +1 attack from radukar and +1 to hit and wound from mannfred, absolutely amazing.

Yeah Mannfred together with Blood Knights (and Vhordrai) is amazing. I recently switched back to Kastelai with Vhordrai, Mannfred, Vengorian Lord, 3x5 Blood Knights and 2x10 wolves. I had a good win against Ironjawz (maw crusha, rogue idol, pigs) where my opponent got a double turn and I didn't. I would think that the combination of Mannfred and Blood knights works better in Kastelai, but will also give it a try in Vyrkos. 

Yesterday I watched the honest wargamer movie about LVO and heard there were only 2 Kastelai lists and 6 Vyrkos lists. I'm very curious what those Vyrkos lists would look like. 

[Warbossironteef]

*Edit. Found it. Lots of zombies and Death Gargant.

 

Anyone have the BCP app and see the LVO Soulblight lists? i think one made top 8. 

My app isnt working.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Warbossironteef

[Warbossironteef]

He made it to top 4!

[Wordy9th]

Played two games this weekend using an LoN list with Mannfred, Vlozd, Necro, VL, 30 Skeletons, 20x2 Zombies, 20GG, 3x fellbats and a CC with Unholy lodestone.

1st game: Stormcast with 4 fulminators, 6 longstrikes, 3x3 vindictors, Relictor, Incantor, Lord Arcanum on gryph charger and Vandus. Battleplan, apex predators.

Opponent gives me the first turn, I put most things off board except my Vlozd who has the shard of night and move up. Opponent then double shoots the vlozd with raptors which survives on 2 wounds thanks to shard of night. Vlozd charges the fulminators and does zero damage before dying.

Next turn Mannfred comes in the board and gets a charge off on the longstrikes. Survives unleash hell on 2 wounds (!) and kills one longstrike (!) he dies next turn but various shenanigans with the rest of my army make it a 20-23 loss.

Game 2: Same list against the same list as above but with bastion instead, 2x5 vindictors and 2x5 libs. I set up virtually everything off the board except 30 skeletons, necro hiding behind a building, fellbats and 20 zombies. He gives me first turn and My Vlozd makes his 9 inch charge (+2 from the command trait) and manages to pile in on the longstrikes killing them all and also roasting 6(!) vindictors in his screen with his breath. Mannfred and his crew of graveguard, VL and 20 zombies come in on the other table edge, zombies make the charge and spike 7(!) mortal wounds on the vindictors and get a pile in on the fulminators preventing the charge making it basically a GG there.

I'm not sure how the second battle would have gone if the long strikes were better screened, but the power of LoN being able to come in on the table edge while protecting my key peices was fairly strong, I feel without it my Vlozd / GG/ other key piece is going to just die.

Home takes: Zombies in min units can still do fairly good damage, and their pile ins can cause serious mayhem. 

Vlozd charging from the table edge needing a 7 is great. 

Fellbats can be awesome. Running them 20 inches to screen off an entire avenue of attack is very powerful.

Shooting armies make playing SBG an uphill battle, but LoN seems to have some tools to make it less depressing. I wish I felt more at ease playing Vyrkos but in this meta bar certain builds like the one at LVO which gives no easy target there's little place for pieces like a Vlozd or Mannfred unless they get to hide off board. And boy do I love those models!

 

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah shooting is a pain for sure.

I, too, played some games this weekend, just a friendly 8 player tournament at our local store, though the scene has a high competitive baseline. Managed 2 wins and a draw, coming second.

This was the list that tabled 11 Dragons in 2 turns and has some really high damage potential with all the buff layering you can do on the VLoZD and the Grave Guard.

The List

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired 

Leaders
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)**
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Mount Trait: Foetid Miasma
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)*
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Necromancer (125)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Vampire Lord (140)**
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions 

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)** 

Units
20 x Grave Guard (280)*
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Fell Bats (75)** 

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment
***Command Entourage - Magnificent 

Additional Enhancements
Artefact 

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134
Drops: 7

First game against Sons of Behemat on Savage Gains, with 4 x Mega Gargants, I won but it was close. He gave me first. VLoZD deleted his general turn 2, then died the next turn in response. Grave Guard deleted a Mega turn 3, then a Mega turn 5. He lost because he rolled snake eyes turn 5 to take my home objective and had no CP to re-roll. Gargants so strong here, because he can kick his home objective and score 2, and I can't take it for 4 points. 3 point victory.

Second game against Stormcast on Tooth and Nail. This wasn't the strongest list around, though still had 6 Longstrikes. He gave me first, then proceeded to shoot Mannfred off turn 1 after I shuffled about, but failed to kill the VLoZD turn 2 and 3, who ended up rampaging through a bunch of units and healing back to full. Bella was clutch here in preventing the Longstrikes from Unleashing Hell via Lycancurse. 1 point victory end of turn 3 (time), though I was in a comfortable position holding 2 objectives.

Third game against Nurgle on First Blood, vs my competitive club mate who won the recent Purple Sparky Unicorns tournament 5-0. His list is a Befouling Host with GuO, 2 x LoA's, Slimux, 20 Plaguebearers then Beast of Nurgle spam. He chose to go first, and I was unable to stop the 20 Plaguebearers from receiving Mystic Shield and Fleshy Abundance. He moved up to cover two objectives, and summoned some Nurglings to block me. I had my VLoZD in an awkward position, and after much deliberation, elected to send him in to the plaguebearers, which was a mistake, only killing 3 or so and then taking a bunch of disease in return, then getting killed the turn after (giving him 2 bonus points and the lead). Bella's Exploding 6s spell was unbound and I wasn't in range of Mannfred's aura, so I really whiffed, but ultimately I gave him a free kill for nothing, The Grave Guard and Mannfred managed to fold his right flank (Slimux and 3 Beasts) then cleaned up the Plaguebearers, however it was too little too late. I managed to claw back 2 points by burning the left objective and claiming 2 for a turn, however by the end we were just grinding it out on 1 objective each, resulting in a draw.

 

Overall I'm happy with the list, I could consider dropping the VLoZD + Bats for Big Drogg but I don't own him. I just need to work on a bit of positional play now I'm not running Nagash and Blood Knights.

 

I do still want to try Blood Knights and Mannfred in Kastelai.

[Wordy9th]

You really feel it when that Vlozd is hitting on 3/4s and 3s with no buffs, it's incredibly painful to see him whiff everything which happens a bit too often without support. One of the issues with my build is that the first charges will occur from the table edge which means no hero phase buffing, but such is life.

I'm glad im not the only one who had mannfred one shot off the table this weekend, props!

What buffs did you have on your vlozd and GG for killing the gargants in the game?

[Liquidsteel]

4 minutes ago, Wordy9th said:

You really feel it when that Vlozd is hitting on 3/4s and 3s with no buffs, it's incredibly painful to see him whiff everything which happens a bit too often without support. One of the issues with my build is that the first charges will occur from the table edge which means no hero phase buffing, but such is life.

I'm glad im not the only one who had mannfred one shot off the table this weekend, props!

What buffs did you have on your vlozd and GG for killing the gargants in the game?

So the buffs that I have are:

Belladamma's spell, Under a Killing Moon, providing an additional hit on 6s, this is a 12" aura

Mannfred's Command Ability, providing +1 to hit and wound in a 12" aura

For the VLoZD only, I have the Sangsyron Artefact, plus Flaming Weapon spell, providing D3 extra attacks on the charge as well as +1 damage to the lance

For the Grave Guard only, there are +1 attack buffs from the Vampire Lord and Mannfred (highly situational) as well as fight twice from the Necromancer, though I seemingly failed to cast this most of the time yesterday; don't think anything ever piled in for a second time. The Grave Guard also situationally get +1 to Wound if they're wholly within 9" of a Vampire.

 

When killing the Gargants, the VLoZD was fully buffed, and rolled 2 extra attacks, missing one but generating 2 more via Belladamma. I then also missed one but generated two more with the maw, didn't even roll the claws.

The Grave Guard had Mannfred, Bella and +1 Attack, I only rolled 40 of my 61 attacks here.

 

With regards to the buffing, thanks to his 16" move, Mannfred has a buff range of 34", if you auto run him 6". It could allow you to keep him back, though that does nothing vs Sentinels or Translocating Longstrikes.

I do think this list could be Legion of Night just as easily, though the reroll casts for Vampires is pretty big in Vyrkos, and I like the extra attacks as well as counting as 14 on objectives for the VLoZD.

 

[JackStreicher]

I need advice.

Soon I'll be facing a Slavesto Darkness list which will be pretty hard to win against as far as I can tell.
He'll play Despoilers:
- Khorne Deamon Prince, Move 5" inches for D3 units at the start of the game Command ability
- Archaon, Khorne, - Call to Glory
- Chaos Lord, Khorne,
- Chaos Lord on Manticore, Khorne
- Chaos Sorcerer on Manticore - Hand of Darkness
- 3x 10 Marauders

I'll have to play

Legion of Blood
2x20 GG
3x10 GG
1x10 Dire Wolves
60 Zombies
2x Vampire Lords (One Arcane - Soulwind, Amarathine Orb, One Martial - Flaming Weapons, Soulpike)
1x Necromancer, Fading Vigour, spectral Grasp
1x Wight King, General, Obliette Arcana, Sanguine Blurr 

The way I see it his sorcerer will melt all Zombies with one spell. It will be pretty hard to counter that. I need good positioning and luck with the unbinds/obliette. So I'll maybe do a Zombiebomb with +3" additional pile in (to counteract the Deamon Prince Command Ability that halfes my charges and runs). That means if I'll charge anything at all - seems like objective sitting is the best I could do.
I'll have to play the objective game and kill his marauders so I can hold more Objectives.
Apart from that I can't realy kill any of his heroes, the armour will be too good. I might get lucky and kill the Manticore Lords but that's it, Archaon is pretty much untouchable.
Concerning Battle Tactics there won't be much I can do apart from killing a battleline.

The Scenario is also a wild card.

Any advice?



 

Edited February 1, 2022 by JackStreicher

[Wordy9th]

Two questions:

1) I was thinking, there's a command trait with LoB that allows wounds I think to do their damage as mortals on 6s. I'm just thinking how much this could spike on a LoB Vlozd, am I missing anything or is this really good?

2) Halgrim's CA, does it count as a run (eg I can't charge) or not? It  does say make a 'Move' of 4 inches instead of making a run roll so I'm not sure. If it doesn't then this definitely has play.

18 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I need advice.

Soon I'll be facing a Slavesto Darkness list which will be pretty hard to win against as far as I can tell.
He'll play Despoilers:
- Khorne Deamon Prince, Move 5" inches for D3 units at the start of the game Command ability
- Archaon, Khorne, - Call to Glory
- Chaos Lord, Khorne,
- Chaos Lord on Manticore, Khorne
- Chaos Sorcerer on Manticore - Hand of Darkness
- 3x 10 Marauders

I'll have to play

Legion of Blood
2x20 GG
3x10 GG
1x10 Dire Wolves
60 Zombies
2x Vampire Lords (One Arcane - Soulwind, Amarathine Orb, One Martial - Flaming Weapons, Soulpike)
1x Necromancer, Fading Vigour, spectral Grasp
1x Wight King, General, Obliette Arcana, Sanguine Blurr 

The way I see it his sorcerer will melt all Zombies with one spell. It will be pretty hard to counter that. I need good positioning and luck with the unbinds/obliette. So I'll maybe do a Zombiebomb with +3" additional pile in (to counteract the Deamon Prince Command Ability that halfes my charges and runs). That means if I'll charge anything at all - seems like objective sitting is the best I could do.
I'll have to play the objective game and kill his marauders so I can hold more Objectives.
Apart from that I can't realy kill any of his heroes, the armour will be too good. I might get lucky and kill the Manticore Lords but that's it, Archaon is pretty much untouchable.
Concerning Battle Tactics there won't be much I can do apart from killing a battleline.

The Scenario is also a wild card.

Any advice?



 

There's a load of variables with this list, particularly because A) I haven't faced the list you're facing yet and B) I've not ran a SBG list with so many infantry. Posistioning will of course be hugely key. I think you will do enough damage if you get a crimson feast or two off on 20 GG for sure.

The only hard recommendation I might make would be to make both VLs have Arcane expertise. Especially if you're worried about spells, having +2 to unbind twice is a really good shout. Maybe go with Decrepify and Overwhelming dread on the Necro to really drop the debuffs on Archaon and co.

[JackStreicher]

Just now, Wordy9th said:

Two questions:

1) I was thinking, there's a command trait with LoB that allows wounds I think to do their damage as mortals on 6s. I'm just thinking how much this could spike on a LoB Vlozd, am I missing anything or is this really good?

2) Halgrim's CA, does it count as a run (eg I can't charge) or not? It  does say make a 'Move' of 4 inches instead of making a run roll so I'm not sure. If it doesn't then this definitely has play.

There's a load of variables with this list, particularly because A) I haven't faced the list you're facing yet and B) I've not ran a SBG list with so many infantry. Posistioning will of course be hugely key. I think you will do enough damage if you get a crimson feast or two off on 20 GG for sure.

The only hard recommendation I might make would be to make both VLs have Arcane expertise. Especially if you're worried about spells, having +2 to unbind twice is a really good shout. Maybe go with Decrepify and Overwhelming dread on the Necro to really drop the debuffs on Archaon and co.

Thx!

i sadly can’t edit the list because those are set for 5 weeks for all league games x_X

 

I‘m actually in the „chilled game“ league, though everyone seems to bring netlists

[Wordy9th]

Yeah that Archaon list doesn't look particularly chill. 

I just want to say lol at the LVO 2nd place SBGL player taking Terminus Clock as a second artefact. Love that I'm seeing that artefact used at high levels of play xD.

[LeonBox]

Hey guys, 

I've been assembling and painting my SBGL since November or so, but I've recently had my first games via TTS. The first one was decent (it was Beastmen, not the scariest proposition) but yesterday I was absolutely ruined by a very nasty Seraphon list. I've also included my list, which I now cannot change because we're apparently doing some kind of tourney. Any advice on handling a list like this? 

[warhammernerd]

On 1/29/2022 at 4:13 AM, Bruteforce said:

Thanks for this, i've been looking for a good justification of zombies vs skellies in vyrkos

All of which is fair crit, BUT, the skeles arw seriously beautiful models. Something which doesn’t seem to be getting a lot of attention is going deathrattle heavy in LoN. I’ve been playing with a big brick of 30GG sword and board backed up by two 20pack of skellibobs. +1 save first turn is great against alphas, and whilst it doesn’t slap super hard it presents a pretty stubborn block to chew through. Back it up with a Necro & the Wight King you’ve made general and it’s pretty decent. Leave Manny and some Vargs to pick on the juicy targets, who of course start off the table.

Is it UBER efficient the most killy thing since killy things killed stuff? No. But I think it has legs, and whilst Zombies are dope they also go down to a wet flannel.

I totally get why we lean into output of GG, Zombies and away from the more tanky side of SBGL, but it doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by warhammernerd

[JackStreicher]

@Bruteforce my opinion on skellies is quite the same.

in this super elite edition even 30 die too quickly without achieving their role as a tarpit. The fact that they have to take battleshock tests for every model They‘ve lost does not help.

imo they‘d either need a better, defensive profile, more protection from battleshock or a bigger minimum size (15-20) to be good.

Zombies are much better while also being able to deal damage. The skeleton attacks are more of a gimmick that waste time instead of dealing any damage.

 

@warhammernerd skellies look super good imo. It’s frustrating however to remove all 30 off the board after your opponent swings at them. The same goes for Grave Guard.

Edited February 7, 2022 by JackStreicher

[El Syf]

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Sever the Head
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Fragment of the Keep
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Prince Vhordrai (455)
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (125)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195)
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85)
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85)

Units
3 x Vargheists (155)
5 x Black Knights (100)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1

 

Not an optimized list but I can now say I do buy the grave guard hype, I completely forgot they did mortals in addition!  Managed to get a win too which was nice was the scenario where you deploy in the corners of the board. Still a massive Vhordrai fanboy, the ultimate distraction Carnifex but actually gets stuff done!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

38 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

in this super elite edition even 30 die too quickly without achieving their role as a tarpit. The fact that they have to take battleshock tests for every model They‘ve lost does not help.

imo they‘d either need a better, defensive profile, more protection from battleshock or a bigger minimum size (15-20) to be good.

I think it's fair to say that skeletons are not super good right now. Zombies are probably generally better. The question is whether skeletons have a role play at all. Even recognizing that they are not a super strong unit, I think they are the closest thing in the Soulblight battletome to an anvil that is also good at capturing. So if you want a unit that can stand on a point and hold it even after taking a hit, skeletons are probably the only game in town. The question is whether you feel like filling that niche with a kinda janky unit is worth it, or whether it would be better to play around in a different way.

When thinking about units, I like to think about them in terms of both their strength (very strong, strong, OK, weak) and how likely it is that they will get to apply that strength (generally useful or situationally useful). A unit of zombies is probably generally strong. There are a lot of ways to use them and in any given game you will probably find a way to bring their strengths to bear. Skeletons are more like a situationally strong choice. If your opponent has no good way to fight them, they can be a menace. But setting up that situation is not super easy and not 100% under your control.

[Liquidsteel]

The fact that Zombies have more bodies, do Mortal Wounds, can grow in size and get that 6" pile in shenanigans makes them too good to pass up, in my opinion.

If Skeletons worked like Necrons reanimation - getting to stand back up after each round of damage, they'd be better. Make it a 5+ instead of a 4+ to balance.

The 6" pile in is just massive, able to cover 16" in a turn without charging, surprising people who thought they just snuck an objective then you relocate a few more bodies on to it, etc etc