AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Liquidsteel]

19 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

While we're on the subject of movement, I feel this and positioning are some of the big challenges with the army that requires a fair bit of experience.

Simply put, maneuvering all your pieces into place with so many bodies, trying to get your main hammer with 4 inch move made of paper into contact while keeping baby vampire lord not sniped seem to be my main challenges while playing.

Paticularly, what are people's main strategies for screening and positioning in a list like this (or any soulblight list that isnt nagash and 25 bloodknights) when you're forced to go first and you're looking at the potential looming double? I've played around 11 games so far against mainly melee heavy armies and I'm dreading going up against some kind of meta stormcast castle with six longstrikes and countercharging fulminators.

I've felt this way ever since my first army was Nighthaunt/LoG with 100+ models.

Actually piloting a large army, be that many units or hordes or both takes additional skill and preparation, not to mention time during the game.

I have always found myself erring on the side of more elite style lists because of it.

[oggurt_da_bog_zombie]

4 hours ago, Btimmy said:

The problem with Vile transference is that it happens in the hero phase. Meaning basically no matter what the big scary monster gets a round of combat with your VLoZD, which in this case is also your general. This is bad news. If you get charged by that gatebreaker you are basically just dead. If you charge that gatebreaker and don't kill it, you are also basically just dead. There is some play with nerfing the dmg output of those units before charging in, but that requires the lore of the death mages to do. I like vile transference a lot in a giant dominated meta, but i haven't been able to really figure out a safe way to use it at all. I prefer to frontload all my dmg into the VLoZD and have him act as a sort of solo flanker while i tie up the big boys with chaff and then get the grave guard into position to deal with them. 

 

That said, that is just my preference, let me know if you find a way to get VT to really work for you!

You've just outlined in detail all the fears I've had about my idea for experiments with VT. 🤣🤦‍♂️

Are Gatebreakers really that much more killy? I've faced many gargants but maybe I've lucked out and its usually Kraken Eaters and Warstompas, and didnt seem like they'd be able to take down an AoD'ed VLoZD.

Regardless, seems like the safer bet might just be to go all in on damage output with Sangsyron and Flaming Weapon, it's certainly a solid load out. 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by oggurt_da_bog_zombie

[Liquidsteel]

The below is how much damage an All out Attack and Finest Hour Gatebreaker does to a Monster, including the chucked rock, but not including the Mortals on the charge (D3). They get to reroll 1s on the stomps and grip and might have +1 to hit if they take the Hero/Monster loathing.

So if it charges you, you need +2 to possibly survive and +3 to probably survive.

 

[Wordy9th]

Hey guys, wondering on your thoughts on this list I'm considering taking to a tournament soon.

Leaders:

BD with VT for some risky plays to take out a gargant or somesuch (protected by kin of the wolf summon potentially)

Mannfred for shenanigans and to either follow the VlozD around or help support the GG. Decrepify for giants and big monsters.

Necromancer with the 30 skellies and because debuffs from lore of the deathmages is good

Vlozd with charge build and kin of the wolf because in my games so far a cheeky group of wolves can be super useful as a screen for GG, protection for belladamma or to steal an objective.

Units:

40x Zombies and 30x Skeletons because I like taking objectives. 10 extra for screens / dropping on objectives through a gravesite.

20 gg with great weapons supported by BD, or a teleporting mannfred or Necromancer.

The idea is to have screens and alpha strike damage with the vlozd / mannfredd / GG and hopefully have a tool for every situation. I'm spooked by castle armies shooting me and giants but who isn't?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)*
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Necromancer (125)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Kin of the Wolf
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Mount Trait: Foetid Miasma
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)**
- Reinforced x 1
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)**
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85)*
20 x Grave Guard (280)**
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140
Drops: 8

 

[oggurt_da_bog_zombie]

5 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

The below is how much damage an All out Attack and Finest Hour Gatebreaker does to a Monster, including the chucked rock, but not including the Mortals on the charge (D3). They get to reroll 1s on the stomps and grip and might have +1 to hit if they take the Hero/Monster loathing.

So if it charges you, you need +2 to possibly survive and +3 to probably survive.

 

Thanks, my VT idea might work better with a VLoZD in Legion of Blood with Arcane battle trait and Soulbound Garments then. 

Admittedly I've really struggled against Mega Gargants before so I'm definitely over correcting a bit but I know I'll see them again at an upcoming tournament. 

[Warbossironteef]

I think the next time I get to play I'm going to test this list out. Usually I like to have multiple buff pieces in my army but I think GG are just good enough to do their job mostly on their own. This list instead does two things, focuses on getting as many good units into the list as possible, 2x GG and 2x Blood knights and has a block of 30 Wolves to control mid board or alpha. Bella is pretty self-sufficient and can offers some nice buffs to GG. I also think it's possibly to set up a nice turn or two when you charge in wolves/GG or Bloodknights and pop the Grave-sand shard. It gives those units enough tankiness to survive a round of combat. 

Pretty excited to give it a go. I don't thin 30 Wolves are as unwieldy as I thought. 

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard
- Mount Trait Foteid MIasmi
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapons 
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
UNITS
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
30 x Dire Wolves (405)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Great Wight Blades
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Great Wight Blades
TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS: 153

Edited January 7, 2022 by Warbossironteef

[Nightseer2012]

2 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Pretty excited to give it a go. I don't thin 30 Wolves are as unwieldy as I thought.

Jebus... I don't know why, but it never occurred to me to ever reinforce a unit of wolves.  Must be because I used to prefer running units of 5xDW for perfect little cheap screens.  60 Wounds of wolves as a speedy blob actually sounds pretty hilarious to try.  Definitely check in after you try it.

[Leshoyadut]

10 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

The below is how much damage an All out Attack and Finest Hour Gatebreaker does to a Monster, including the chucked rock, but not including the Mortals on the charge (D3). They get to reroll 1s on the stomps and grip and might have +1 to hit if they take the Hero/Monster loathing.

So if it charges you, you need +2 to possibly survive and +3 to probably survive.

 

One small note that doesn't actually change much in this situation: Against monsters, they do not get re-roll 1s on stomp. They get re-rolls for grips vs. monsters, and stomps vs. non-monsters.

[Liquidsteel]

22 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

One small note that doesn't actually change much in this situation: Against monsters, they do not get re-roll 1s on stomp. They get re-rolls for grips vs. monsters, and stomps vs. non-monsters.

Thanks, I misread

[Honk]

6 hours ago, Nightseer2012 said:

60 Wounds of wolves as a speedy blob actually sounds pretty hilarious

They were a thing for AoS 1.0 LoN… deep in the vault there should be a 60 puppies list somewhere.
Pure hate, no coherency, wonderful 

[Nightseer2012]

1 hour ago, Honk said:

They were a thing for AoS 1.0 LoN… deep in the vault there should be a 60 puppies list somewhere.
Pure hate, no coherency, wonderful 

Yea, but back then they were still overshadowed by 40x Skeleton Warriors w/Spears getting up to ~400 attacks in a phase.  Now that "reinforcements" are a thing, the thought had left my mind entirely.  Now I am interested, just because 30 wolves sounds hilarious.

[Btimmy]

What does everyone think our most impactful lore of the death mages spell is? If you only got one and were going in blind to a tournament. 

[Leshoyadut]

3 hours ago, Btimmy said:

What does everyone think our most impactful lore of the death mages spell is? If you only got one and were going in blind to a tournament. 

Personally, I think Overwhelming Dread is probably the best one. It really hurts, and is easy to cast at only a 5+. Fading Vigor is pretty close, and I think situationally can cause more of an effect (such as lists with 30 models getting 2 attacks; FV halves their damage), but Overwhelming Dread seems useful in more situations where you really want to reduce incoming damage (stuff like megagargants). The others are all way too situational (at best) for me to want to pick them into an unknown/wide meta.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Leshoyadut

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Leshoyadut said:

Personally, I think Overwhelming Dread is probably the best one. It really hurts, and is easy to cast at only a 5+. Fading Vigor is pretty close, and I think situationally can cause more of an effect (such as lists with 30 models getting 2 attacks; FV halves their damage), but Overwhelming Dread seems useful in more situations where you really want to reduce incoming damage (stuff like megagargants). The others are all way too situational (at best) for me to want to pick them into an unknown/wide meta.

I'd also vote for Overwhelming Dread as the best one. But honestly, if you bring a Necromancer your game plan should probably be to cast Vanhel's most of the time. Especially considering you can get a Corpse Cart that provides a similar debuff (-1 to wound) without having to cast anything.

On a Necromancer with Arcane Tome I would always pick Overwhelming Dread, simply because it's the easiest to cast and the effect is good. On a Necromancer without the Tome, I'd probably pick a more situational spell like Prison of Grief of Decrepify, because with one cast I don't see a situation where I prefer Overwhelming Dread over Vanhel's or Mystic Shield, but there is a chance I'd prefer one of the more situational spells. On Mortarchs, no idea really. I'd probably just take Pinions.

[Sutek]

I love Decripfy.  Particularly when you play it on a big character like a Mawcrusha.  Overwhelming dread is good but can be countered by all out attack.  There's little that buffs wound rolls.

[Gery81]

I agree that overwhelming dread is the most useful spell in the Lore of deathmages. Slapping a -1 to hit penalty on something is always nice. The most impactful spell however, in my opinion, is Prison of grief. Stopping movement wins games. Yes, the 5+ roll is unreliable, but otherwise it would need a casting value of 8+, it would be so powerful. 

[Liquidsteel]

On 12/29/2021 at 7:08 PM, Liquidsteel said:

I had a mini break from Nagash today with 2 games against my friends Slaanesh, obviously in my favour but was fun taking Vhordrai and Bella out for a spin.

 

On topic, I next plan to test new Nagash with a slightly different build to before, running a brick of 10 blood knights with the lifeswarm in support. Between rally and lifeswarm you're looking at potentially 3 knights returned "for free". 

 

Vamp Lord slots back in to unlock the additional endless spell. Certainly not as efficient offensively but the aim is to play with two main threats, bats for unleash hell, one unit of knights flanking if needed.

 

It could end up just a gimmick but I'm excited to try it.

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (955)
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate

Battleline
10 x Blood Knights (390)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Blood Knights (195)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)

Units
3 x Fell Bats (75)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
Drops: 1
 

So I tried this list out, managed a Win vs Nurgle and a draw vs Stormcast, though the Stormcast was hardly their best list (no dragons or longstrikes).

In general you can certainly feel the power level has dropped. Goes without saying, but losing reroll 1s to hit and save is massive on Nagash and Blood Knights. Both games I felt I was losing models far easier, which is true.

For Nagash himself, Damage wise he feels quite swingy in combat now, though when you can combine AoA with Finest Hour and roll well on your D6 damage you can just obliterate a lot of things. Survivability is way down, due to the combination of losing his rr1s, his regular Ward, and not being able to heal in combat. Lifeswarm was actually rather clutch in game two; after surviving on one wound he was back to full after 2 turns of hiding.

The new command ability is also interesting, I had my brick of 10 Blood Knights on a 2+ save (Mystic Shield) with a 4+ ward rerolling 1s (command ability plus Grave Sand Shard) for a turn and they tanked like 1,000 points of Stormcast including 10 Protectors and a Prime, only lost 5 models over 2 turns I think.

The bringing back extra models when rezzing was nice, I managed to draw the game thanks to two failed Rally's still giving me 1 Blood Knight each turn, which saved me my Grand Strategy. Lifeswarm was underwhelming on the Knights, primarily because they had 2 wounds left when I summoned it, and rolled a 1 on the initial set up, meaning I only healed 2 wounds and didn't get to proc a resurrection as I was healing not returning slain models.

Ultimately though, a brick of 10 is unwieldy if you play with a good amount of terrain as it not only makes coherency harder to manage, but engineering retreat and charge becomes tougher with such a large footprint.

I think I'll be benching Nagash for the time being, I want to get Mannfred out again and possibly some Grave Guard. I still prefer the elite style lists and blood knights en-masse are still good, just not AS good and when you have 955 points invested in a monster that no longer does it all, you need enough around to support that.

[Warbossironteef]

Anyone have any advice/experience playing against Deep Striking Stormcast? I'm facing a SCE list with Prime, Yndrstra and Bastion, some annihilators and a 10x unit of Protectors. Such a tank army. He's also using the hero that allows him to deepstrike one unit within 7 inches instead of 9 inches.

I'm taking my 30 wolves list out for a spin. No idea how I'm going to kill those guys. Not sure what to do about deployment. Thinking I'll do a big circle of wolves around VLOZD and Belladamma. Not sure if I want to keep BKs in outflank or not.

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Fragment of the Keep
- Mount Trait Foteid MIasmi
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapons 
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
UNITS
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
30 x Dire Wolves (405)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS: 153

 

[Evil Bob]

12 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Anyone have any advice/experience playing against Deep Striking Stormcast? I'm facing a SCE list with Prime, Yndrstra and Bastion, some annihilators and a 10x unit of Protectors. Such a tank army. He's also using the hero that allows him to deepstrike one unit within 7 inches instead of 9 inches.

Someone did this during a local Path to Glory campaign games and he tacked on the +1” to charges. He’d drop Annihilators for maximum mortal wound generation then attack the target he was most concerned about. While the entire concept is scary it rarely had a major ‘impact’ mainly because SCE armies are so small that they need to do both of the above AND progressively accumulate VPs.

You might be able to beat him solely playing the objective game. With more than enough units to tie up all of his and still run around freely. My biggest advice would be to not let him force you to be so defensive that it costs you VPs sitting in the backboard. You CAN deploy back a little if you think it disrupt his deep-striker(s) being too far out of position, just do enough math for retreats and other moves to get your unit to a better position.

Ideally he’ll mess up and underestimate your Grave Guard with three shield Annihilators or go after the Blood Knights and be left grossly out of position. 

I have no idea how Bastion plays.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Evil Bob
Mind baffling censorship

[Liquidsteel]

Protectors will best be dealt with by the Grave Guard, Blood Knights will struggle due to the save stacking they can do so avoid them.

Prime can guarantee a 12" charge so can potentially hit something 17" away from where he drops, worth bearing in mind.

Only 3 attacks turn 1 though if he drops straight away.

[Wordy9th]

Anyone got any go to sites or recommendations for movement trays/bases for my many skeletons and zombies?

[Honk]

8 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

Anyone got any go to sites or recommendations for movement trays/bases for my many skeletons and zombies?

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2943412

has a variety of trays 🤔 just need to find a printer 😇

[Liquidsteel]

Had a really great game yesterday with a new Vyrkos list, it's nothing that breaks the mould but felt really good. Had played similar lists back in May/June last year when the book first came out, but not with Mannfred, rather with Radukar.

Played for the first time vs Stormdrake Guard, 10 of them plus the Hero, which was fun. We rolled First Blood so the mission was good for him with only 3 objectives, though deployment allowed me to castle up nicely.

I rolled quite hot on some of my deathless saves, I can't lie, and rolled a 5+ turn 1 to sneak back an objective he thought was safe to deny 2 points, however after 2 full turns he was tabled with the score 10-4 to me going in to a potential double turn 3.

The Grave Guard killed 4.5 dragons over 3 turns, whilst the VLoZD killed 2, then left the Knight Draconis that charged him on a single wound (which Mannfred pinged off with an Arcane Bolt), then the remaining 3.5 dragons with just his Lance and Maw.

I managed to get +2 attacks from Sangsyron, then rolled 2 x 6s to hit which exploded, resulting in 6 saves for him to make of which he only made 1, so 25 damage just from the lance.

In future we agreed he probably should have given me first turn, but the temptation to Alpha was there, and he had a very poor shooting phase turn 2.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)**
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Mount Trait: Foetid Miasma
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)***
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)**
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Vampire Lord (140)***
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Necromancer (125)***
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)**

Units
3 x Fell Bats (75)**
20 x Grave Guard (280)*
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment
***Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134
Drops: 7
 

This list revolves around two main threats - the VLoZD and the Grave Guard, and everything else is there primarily to support that. With buff layering the average damage of these two units is below, Grave Guard having the opportunity to fight twice via Necromancer also.

You can tweak it to be 5 drops by only running the GG in hunters, but I like the possibility of Zombies with +1 attack doing 8 Mortals. You can also run it up to 8 drops by swapping to Warlord and getting an extra CP once per game.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

22 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

Anyone got any go to sites or recommendations for movement trays/bases for my many skeletons and zombies?

I use the MDF trays from Element Games that fit 5 models. I like them so far. Using 5 model trays makes it so that movement is still fairly quick, but you don't always need to remove the models from the trays to pile in/charge.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Had a really great game yesterday with a new Vyrkos list, it's nothing that breaks the mould but felt really good. Had played similar lists back in May/June last year when the book first came out, but not with Mannfred, rather with Radukar.

Played for the first time vs Stormdrake Guard, 10 of them plus the Hero, which was fun. We rolled First Blood so the mission was good for him with only 3 objectives, though deployment allowed me to castle up nicely.

I rolled quite hot on some of my deathless saves, I can't lie, and rolled a 5+ turn 1 to sneak back an objective he thought was safe to deny 2 points, however after 2 full turns he was tabled with the score 10-4 to me going in to a potential double turn 3.

The Grave Guard killed 4.5 dragons over 3 turns, whilst the VLoZD killed 2, then left the Knight Draconis that charged him on a single wound (which Mannfred pinged off with an Arcane Bolt), then the remaining 3.5 dragons with just his Lance and Maw.

I managed to get +2 attacks from Sangsyron, then rolled 2 x 6s to hit which exploded, resulting in 6 saves for him to make of which he only made 1, so 25 damage just from the lance.

In future we agreed he probably should have given me first turn, but the temptation to Alpha was there, and he had a very poor shooting phase turn 2.

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)**
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Mount Trait: Foetid Miasma
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)***
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)**
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Vampire Lord (140)***
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Necromancer (125)***
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)**

Units
3 x Fell Bats (75)**
20 x Grave Guard (280)*
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment
***Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134
Drops: 7
 

This list revolves around two main threats - the VLoZD and the Grave Guard, and everything else is there primarily to support that. With buff layering the average damage of these two units is below, Grave Guard having the opportunity to fight twice via Necromancer also.

Congratulations on the win.

How do you like Hunter's Snare on the VLoZD? Do you think it's worth using over Pack Alpha?