General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[Feii]

more shots but 33% less effective at actually hitting, blissbarb seekers can do something but I dont understand their role, windchargers are faster and easily fly IN ADDITION they ignore terrain even without the fly IN ADDITION they can count as having charged easily and IN ADDITION you can tie your opponents movement for the next round with their shenanigans. 


Let's be honest mounted archers are not in a good position RN or in general in this game system. I would rather have a cheaper glass cannon than do it everything but nothing properly more expensive unit. 

[SeanMaguire1991]

30 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

True. The last point esp. 

Yet the MW output of 5 is 1 on average, they hit worse and as mentioned have no synergies (army wide issue).
I personally value the movement shenanigans more than a bit of damage  however Slaanesh is overpriced anyways maybe the LRL Kangaroos are an indicator concerning the price of Blissbarb Seeker after a points update? 🤔

 

Well actually they can synergise with Bladebringers and Viceleaders because they can cast Acquiescence on a target and everything in the army can rerolls 1s to hit against it, which plays into generating more depravity.

I don't think they are overpriced I think everything else will get more expensive as what happened to 40k will happen to AoS with the model count dropping (probably why we didn't get a points adjustment in the big FaQ).

[SeanMaguire1991]

59 minutes ago, Feii said:

blissbarb seekers can do something but I dont understand their role

Their role is to generate Depravity Points by chipping away at the enemies units so the big melee units can finish them off. 

They can also run down fast units with their 14 inch speed. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by SeanMaguire1991
additional info

[Ragest]

IN ADDITION Blissbars can pile in 6” without even charge IN ADDITION they let you summon 30 daemonettes or a keeper IN ADDITION they can run and still shoot.

Have a little bit of shame, Blissbarbs and Windrunners are pretty decent pointed, none of them will break the game with their mechanics so please, stop this drama.

[Feii]

13 minutes ago, Ragest said:

IN ADDITION Blissbars can pile in 6” without even charge IN ADDITION they let you summon 30 daemonettes or a keeper IN ADDITION they can run and still shoot.

Have a little bit of shame, Blissbarbs and Windrunners are pretty decent pointed, none of them will break the game with their mechanics so please, stop this drama.

why do you have to lie? they don't let you summon 30 daemonettes, If they wipe your unit you don't get those depravity points.  

another LRL propaganda  "they won't break the game" well sure but are they NPE? Yes. IT is not only about the pure power level.

[BadDice0809]

14 minutes ago, Ragest said:

IN ADDITION Blissbars can pile in 6” without even charge 

This is false. They only get that if you take a battalion. Windriders have their pile away mechanic just baked in. Thier battalion just makes their BETTER.

15 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Have a little bit of shame, Blissbarbs and Windrunners are pretty decent pointed, none of them will break the game with their mechanics so please, stop this drama.

Yeah, it would be shameful to deliberately misrepresent rules wouldn't it?

[chosen_of_khaine]

12 minutes ago, Feii said:

why do you have to lie? they don't let you summon 30 daemonettes, If they wipe your unit you don't get those depravity points.  

another LRL propaganda  "they won't break the game" well sure but are they NPE? Yes. IT is not only about the pure power level.

"LRL propaganda" good lord, I'm glad I'm not in the same playgroup as a lot of folks in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people acting like the sky is falling have even played many games, let alone against Lumineth.

Ever had a 40 man block of skeletons you just wiped out immediately be resummoned in the next hero phase? Tried to push a blob of mortek backed by a harvester off an objective? Have 2k points of kharadron dropped right in front of your face turn 1? Have varanguard fight 3 times in the same turn? Fight 2.5k+ points of daemons or seraphon in a 2k game? Every army has one or several effects you could complain about, OR you could figure out how to beat them, just like when any new army is released.

Edited March 27, 2021 by chosen_of_khaine

[yukishiro1]

I don't think sniping with one another about who's lying about what is very useful for anybody. 

What really strikes me about this book is how much it feels like it was written by someone who just really likes High Elves, rather than by someone who cares about balance. It's just chock full of extra special rules that feel more like they're in there because it's cool than because they really thought through how to design an army. I think we all have to admit at this point that we were just wrong about the first half of LRL - this wasn't some carefully designed book with one big weakness (being bad at playing the mission), it was half of a book that has no real weaknesses, and it only looked like there was a choice to make them bad at the mission because we only had half the book. Stuff like giving Teclis autocasting teleports, or giving units 6" flying pile-outs in a battalion even if they didn't charge, speaks of a design philosophy that is not about building a balanced faction with interesting tradeoffs, it's just about throwing literally everything you can think of into the book because they're High Elves, they should be powerful and elite and cool! 

Edited March 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Feii]

So you are telling me that LRL are not NPE by listing all these NPE things? OR you think that having NPE should be this gold standard in this game therefore  LRL is fine? 


WHAT ARE YOU EVEN SAYING ANON WITH A TECLIS PROFILE PICTURE

[JonnyTheKing]

10 minutes ago, chosen_of_khaine said:

"LRL propaganda" good lord, I'm glad I'm not in the same playgroup as a lot of folks in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people acting like the sky is falling have even played many games, let alone against Lumineth.

 

People just want to discuss thoughts on an army and people on both sides have taken it a bit far imo

Edited March 27, 2021 by JonnyTheKing

[Beliman]

15 minutes ago, Feii said:

another LRL propaganda  "they won't break the game" well sure but are they NPE? Yes. IT is not only about the pure power level.

But the most important part: every kangaroo that they bring to the table are points that are not expend in sentinels/wardens/teclis!! Win/win situation!!

[yukishiro1]

Please don't get this thread locked folks, if you feel like someone is not engaging in good faith just ignore their contributions, don't get sucked into a flame war. 

[JonnyTheKing]

39 minutes ago, Ragest said:

IN ADDITION Blissbars can pile in 6” without even charge 

That's a battalion, not built in

Edited March 27, 2021 by JonnyTheKing

[JackStreicher]

49 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Have a little bit of shame, Blissbarbs and Windrunners are pretty decent pointed, none of them will break the game with their mechanics so please, stop this drama.

What drama? Did I miss something?

[BadDice0809]

I remember a lot of similar discussions like this surrounding OBR, really just Pertifex, when they were first revealed.

Same cries of broken! Not fair! Destroys balance! Mortek are unkillable!

Same cries from OBR of 'just play around them' and 'its their mechanic they can have nice things.' 

Similar outrage about FEC savage strike always fighting first.

Then, after the world's largest AoS tournament ever, the highest ranking OBR player (2nd) didn't take any Mortek. And there were all of what, 3? OBR in the top tables?

Yet, even though it wasn't crushing all tournaments, GW nerfed Pertifex into the ground (also hit down Savage Strike). The negative reaction from the community was enough. A similar story happened with Slaanesh (even though they were undoubtedly much MUCH better than OBR ever were).

What can we take from this? An interaction doesn't have to be ruling the top tables for it be NPE, and GW have nerfed these sort of interactions before. Also that "just play around it" is a bull**** excuse/justification.

Right now, a LOT of the LRL defenders in this thread sound exactly like the early OBR defenders, trying to explain away others legitimate concerns with the way the army operates.

[Gecktron]

7 minutes ago, BadDice0809 said:

Yet, even though it wasn't crushing all tournaments, GW nerfed Pertifex into the ground (also hit down Savage Strike). The negative reaction from the community was enough. A similar story happened with Slaanesh (even though they were undoubtedly much MUCH better than OBR ever were).

What can we take from this? An interaction doesn't have to be ruling the top tables for it be NPE, and GW have nerfed these sort of interactions before. Also that "just play around it" is a bull**** excuse/justification.

I dont think thats accurate. Before the Petrifex nerf Ossiarch Bonereapers were a top table army. The Honest Wargamer had them at a 67% winrate in January 2020: https://thehonestwargamer.com/cancon-lvo-stats/ 
Slaanesh too reached a 66% winrate during the times of the tripple Keeper. 

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, BadDice0809 said:

What can we take from this? An interaction doesn't have to be ruling the top tables for it be NPE, and GW have nerfed these sort of interactions before. Also that "just play around it" is a bull**** excuse/justification.

Zilfin (1drop+WLV), Idoneth (ol'eelspam and now with turtles), SCE (1drop), Teclis/sentinels, etc... are more toxic for this game, even if some fo them are not making tops in the competitive scene.

Anything that can kill 30-50% of your toys in the first turn has the most NPE potential of the whole game.

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
I’ve had a nice day playing with my son today after quite a busy and tough week at work and I was looking forward to reading about the LRL released and peoples thoughts on them. I did not expect to see some of you moaning and going on and on. 
 

Im not going to bother explaining about needing to play some games, actually reading the story and not a summary, or how we may have a new edition this year and things change. I’ve even developed a twitch when I see the phrase “Negative Play Experience”. 
 

This forum is to enjoy Age of Sigmar, especially in the times of a global pandemic where many of us are restricted about how we enjoy our hobby. I’m not expecting everybody to be fanboys but I do expect you at least give constructive criticism. If you can’t do this, this may not be the forum for you. 
 

So please, no more moaning. Be constructive and respectful to each other

[BadDice0809]

34 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Zilfin (1drop+WLV), Idoneth (ol'eelspam and now with turtles), SCE (1drop), Teclis/sentinels, etc... are more toxic for this game, even if some fo them are not making tops in the competitive scene.

Anything that can kill 30-50% of your toys in the first turn has the most NPE potential of the whole game.

I mean... yeah? I dont know how that is up for contention, or relevant to my point. 

The point is something DOESN'T need to be the MOST NPE thing for it be (1) NPE and/or (2) get the nerf bat (see Savage Strike, Pertifex).

Why does GW nerf some things and let others slide? Who knows (even though the fact that the Savage Strike change and Pertifex changes were single lines in subfactions, and not combos of Subfaction AND artifact AND Battalion AND specific units is probably a factor).

The mere fact there is this much conversation over this is still pretty telling, as are the same sort of arguments that have popped up on either side.

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, I've never really understood the "don't complain about this NPE because that one is (allegedly) worse!" thing. I want the game to be less NPE, not for every faction to have something like the Zilfin WLV-in-a-bottle abomination, and I suspect most people are the same. 

The solution to unenjoyable rules isn't for everyone to get them. And it's really not productive to go back and forth that way; all it does is shift the discussion away form anything constructive towards hurling accusations back and forth. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Beliman]

17 minutes ago, BadDice0809 said:

I mean... yeah? I dont know how that is up for contention, or relevant to my point. 

The point is something DOESN'T need to be the MOST NPE thing for it be (1) NPE and/or (2) get the nerf bat (see Savage Strike, Pertifex).

Why does GW nerf some things and let others slide? Who knows (even though the fact that the Savage Strike change and Pertifex changes were single lines in subfactions, and not combos of Subfaction AND artifact AND Battalion AND specific units is probably a factor).

The mere fact there is this much conversation over this is still pretty telling, as are the same sort of arguments that have popped up on either side.

My point is that NPE is subjective to everyone. What you think is NPE, maybe it's not for me.

I would wait  a bit to make a final judgement (and share it as a fact in this  forum) before having played some games. Because even if your examples are fine, it happened a lot of times that people freak out about overpowered warscrolls, NPE mechanics and horrible rules for armies  before they were released  and turned to be "just OK" after some games.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Beliman

[yukishiro1]

I don't think anyone's making "final judgments" here, just pointing out things they feel concerned about. Many of them may not turn out to be such big deals, but that isn't a reason not to venture an opinion. 

NPE is by its very nature subjective and therefore it shouldn't be threatening to be told that something is NPE for someone else, even if it isn't for you; it just means you have a difference of opinion over a game mechanic. The thing with NPE is that individual opinions on what is or is not NPE is only important if they are shared by a significant portion of the player base, and it's perfectly valid for people to talk about what is NPE to them and see how it matches what is NPE for other people, because that's how feedback works. Based on its track record, GW has shown pretty clearly it doesn't have a great grasp on what is or isn't NPE for the player base as a whole itself, so the only way they can know is if people tell them. If you disagree with someone's opinion that something is NPE, say that too, that's also useful information because again an individual's opinion on NPE doesn't really matter, it's how the community as a whole feels. It doesn't have to be a big deal that people on the internet disagree about what are good rules. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Joseph Mackay]

2 hours ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

Their role is to generate Depravity Points by chipping away at the enemies units so the big melee units can finish them off. 

They can also run down fast units with their 14 inch speed. 

You don’t get any depravity if the unit is wiped out (because depravity is generated in the battleshock phase, if a unit no longer exists you can’t check for the conditions of earning depravity) Slaanesh doesn’t actually want to kill you, they just want to hurt you a little bit 

[Joseph Mackay]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

Please don't get this thread locked folks, if you feel like someone is not engaging in good faith just ignore their contributions, don't get sucked into a flame war. 

These thread should be locked honestly. It does no good whatsoever. It’s purely a thread specifically for people to complain about Lumineth, and anyone who tries to defend them against the hyperbole and exaggerated nonsense going on in here is personally attacked with insults 

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

I don't think anyone's making "final judgments" here, just pointing out things they feel concerned about. Many of them may not turn out to be such big deals, but that isn't a reason not to venture an opinion. 

I don't believe that. When mods are concerned about how people make their "claims", I'm pretty sure that people are not just "making an opinion".

About NPE, I agree with you, but I can't take seriously an argument that use NPE as something to take in consideration without having played any game (that's the whole point of NPE).

But I think that we are just moving in cercles. Maybe it's time to talk about how to play around their new mechanics and be ready for when people will finish painting their dudes?