Soulblight Gravelords News, Rumours and Speculation

[GutrotSpume]

So my takes after having a good read through everything:

graveguard seem strong but they are slow and can’t take a punch. They were never taken in old LON when you could bring loads back and now you’re lucky to get 3 back a hero phase. I just think they’ll be focused down with shooting and magic or alpha strikes in combat. You could go sword and board but they lose a lot of hitting power.

Radukar and Belladamma are awesome. Honestly think Belladamma is an auto include for most lists.

skeletons bring models back is pretty meh. Sounds good on paper but it seems you only roll for what was killed that phase so they’ll quickly get whittled down. Plus zero offensive ability.

zombies. Really strong with the janky pile in. One issue with them is the only buff worth doing is +1 attack and Van Hels so you’re then relying on Radukar a vamp Lord and a necromancer. Radukar is great but the other 2 don’t bring anything else to the table and to get this combo off you need 2 CP and to cast a spell. Plus with rumours of AOS going like 40K so smaller board and everything going up in cost how many big juicy blobs of 1 wound models will their be for the zombies to maximise adding new models to the unit?

Vengorian Lord: anyone else noticed his CA is board wide? He’d be great in a monster mash list.

blood Knights: pretty hitty on the charge, if they get flee and charge they are great otherwise I’m not so sure.

prince Vhordrai and Mannfred are both great.

Dire Wolves. Great in Vyrkros near a hero so they are 3’s and 2’s on the charge.

Coven Throne: great spell and amazing command ability but is it worth 310pts for that? Guess you really need to lean into it and be buffing 30 graveguard or 10-15 blood knights a turn to be getting the most out of them. Surprisingly juicy in Kasteli if they get +1 damage.

Varghiests: flying deepstriking vampire Ogors! What’s not to love? Die to a stiff breeze but in Kasteli they will be overlooked for the Blood Knights and Vhordrai.

vamp on zombie dragon: no more chalice and command ability?! Don’t think they are worth it for 435pts. 

Overall the biggest issue for me is the army has turned into Khorne. Lots of janky stuff you need to make sure goes off and loads of little bubbles your units need to be wholly within which for me personally sounds like too much like hard work to enjoy on the table. The exception to this is an elite kasteli list which seems like a lot of fun although not sure how good it will be.

biggest turn off for me is the lack of care and effort that seems to have gone into the book. The spell lores hardly changing and pretty much every single character being 3’s and 3’s -1 D3 damage. Wight Kings command ability so obviously being broken but just not picked up during any part of the design process. The model team at GW made all these fantastic minis and clearly put a lot of time and love into them and then the rules team have looked at an awesome model like the rat prince for example and spent 5 mins creating a Warscroll for him.
 

The 40K rules guys seem to really put their heart and soul into their work and whilst there’s obvious balance issues when they release a new codex you really get the sense they’ve poured over every unit and thought about what it does on the battlefield and how it can be improved. Ultimately it’s this lack of care and effort from the AOS rules guys that will mean I don’t drop a shed load of cash on this army.

If you’re happy with this release then I’m happy for you and hope you enjoy it but for me I don’t think GW have put enough effort in to get my hard earned money.

Edited May 14, 2021 by GutrotSpume

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, Aren73 said:

A 30 max, cheap unit that you can buff the saves for, has effectively a 4+ save after save after save and you can heal...that comes back at half strength after being killed. I like them for objective holding. 

Zombies ae also better for that due to their mass.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 hours ago, Sception said:

This is fair, but with the low speed of grave guard it's going to be difficult to get that damage where you want it, while their lower durability point for point is easier for the enemy to exploit.

Grave Guard still have the power of the DOOT so they get to auto-charge 6" at least.

[Enoby]

23 minutes ago, GutrotSpume said:

biggest turn off for me is the lack of care and effort that seems to have gone into the book. The spell lores hardly changing and pretty much every single character being 3’s and 3’s -1 D3 damage. Wight Kings command ability so obviously being broken but just not picked up during any part of the design process. The model team at GW made all these fantastic minis and clearly put a lot of time and love into them and then the rules team have looked at an awesome model like the rat prince for example and spent 5 mins creating a Warscroll for him.
 

The 40K rules guys seem to really put their heart and soul into their work and whilst there’s obvious balance issues when they release a new codex you really get the sense they’ve poured over every unit and thought about what it does on the battlefield and how it can be improved. Ultimately it’s this lack of care and effort from the AOS rules guys that will mean I don’t drop a shed load of cash on this army

I've noticed this recently, that AoS battletomes seem to have less put into them than 40k codexes. Correct me if I'm wrong as it's been a long time since I opened a codex (I have Chaos Knights, Chaos Space marines, and Chaod Daemons), but they had loads of strategems, weapon choices, spell lores, and unique customisation. That's not to say it was all good, but I could spend a long time looking at the new stuff. 

Recently with AoS it feels like they make only a few changes to an existing book. This isn't always bad, but it's often less exciting. Look at Khorne, Sylvaneth, Slaanesh, and now Gravelords; it's not to say these books are bad, but rather the changes from their previous books are minor. I understand the perspective of fewer changes, but I don't know if I like it - I think I'd prefer it if there were multiple changes and additions, like new specific spell lores and unique customisation.  

[Envyus]

26 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Zombies ae also better for that due to their mass.

Not really Zombies don't come back as fast. 

Skeletons are super easy to revive and keep going. Zombies are more for pushing while Skeletons are for defending a point. 

[Izotzuhure]

Silly troll question. If you use the extra 3 inch to pile in trait from Legion on Blood on your zombies (just run your general so they can be within distance, for example), could they simply pile in 9" to an enemy unit after being set up from the gravesite? 

[Ghoooouls]

1 minute ago, Izotzuhure said:

Silly troll question. If you use the extra 3 inch to pile in trait from Legion on Blood on your zombies (just run your general so they can be within distance, for example), could they simply pile in 9" to an enemy unit after being set up from the gravesite? 

No as they are only eligible to fight if they are within 6 inches still. That ability only adds 3 to pile in, not to eligibility.

Would be funny though lol.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

 

1 minute ago, Izotzuhure said:

Silly troll question. If you use the extra 3 inch to pile in trait from Legion on Blood on your zombies (just run your general so they can be within distance, for example), could they simply pile in 9" to an enemy unit after being set up from the gravesite? 

I think the Legion of Blood pile in only gives you an extra 3 inches if you can pile in, but does not allow you to pile in from further away.

[FeralMulan]

Weird Question: If I buy the Tome, will I get a code to activate it on the app? Or Will I need to buy it on the App?

[Honk]

1 minute ago, Izotzuhure said:

could they simply pile in 9" to an enemy unit after being set up from the gravesite?

Depending on AoS3 rules, but right now no...

usually 3“ to be in combat and 3“ pile in. Some units only have 3“ combat and 6“ pile in, which is a bit sad...

then now we have zombies (and wolves) that are considered to be in combat at 6“ and pile in 6“...with LoB buff 6“/9“.

remember that this also doesn’t give you a 3“ charge or something

[Ghoooouls]

3 minutes ago, Honk said:

Depending on AoS3 rules, but right now no...

usually 3“ to be in combat and 3“ pile in. Some units only have 3“ combat and 6“ pile in, which is a bit sad...

then now we have zombies (and wolves) that are considered to be in combat at 6“ and pile in 6“...with LoB buff 6“/9“.

remember that this also doesn’t give you a 3“ charge or something

How do wolves get it? I've seen a few mentions of that now.

[Izotzuhure]

13 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

How do wolves get it? I've seen a few mentions of that now.

Belladama's command ability. 

[Erdemo86]

My biggest Problem is finding a Hero who can Carry the Command Trait and Artefact, because all good Heroes are Nameless!

Prince V, Belladama,Radukar, Mannfred? 
so list building is very Hard. Prince V is so much better than a VLoZD. Im trying to make a good kastelei List but really struggling because of the Heroes. I have a feeling that something like this will be the competitive Meta and I really don’t like it because so many Models to paint.

Vyrkos:

Radukar

Belladama

Mannfred

Vampire Lord

Necromancer

 

3x 40 Zombies

corpse Cart

Total: 1935 points 

in my Dreams Kastelei would be the way to go but as more as I think about it, this list will be much better than a Kastelei list... 😭

Even if you’re trying to make a competitive Kastelei list, I would never want to loose on Radukar and Belladona. Also Prince V.

Only the 3 Heroes would cost 970 points and still no Hero to carry a artifact and command trait. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Erdemo86

[umpac]

17 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Vyrkos:

Radukar

Belladama

Mannfred

Vampire Lord

Necromancer

 

3x 40 Zombies

corpse Cart

Total: 1935 points 

Imo you want the batallion if the zombies are gonna carry, its the best and easiest access they have to +1A. I'd drop the zombies and take wolves as a screen and put everything in the deathstench batt. This puts you at lower drops, you get an artefact on both no-names and a much needed CP.

[Erdemo86]

I wish I could make Kastelei list with Blood Knights that’s almost as strong as this list...

[JackStreicher]

So I've had a look at the whole book thoroughly and I think the core of most armies will look like this:

Standard:
1x Necromancer
2x-3x Blood Knights
1x-2x Dire Wolves
1x 40 Zombies
1x 20 Zombies
1x Corpse Cart
1x Deathstench Drove
All bolded Units can be removed/replaced by something else
This puts you at a base cost of:
Minimum: 880
Maximum: 1505

There will also be a Deathrattle core build, yet it seems less potent and is Subfaction dependent
 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Since I used to run Deathmarch, here are my thoughts on the state of Deathrattle:

Skeleton Warriors

Compared to before, the new skeleton warriors do a lot less damage, but have a significantly better save and regeneration. In reality, their new regeneration ability is not really a buff, because LoN just used to heal a lot better in the hero phase. Still, these new skeletons don't need support to heal, which is nice.

Skeleton Warriors are the defensive battleline of Gravelords. As much as old Skeleton Warriors did no damage, these new guys really have a non-existent damage output, so we should take that as a signpost and not try to make them do something they are not meant to do. Don't put any offensive buffs on these guys. It's just not worth it. That said, +1 attack will literally double their damage output. I guess if they are close to Radukar when he pops his bubble, that's nice.

In ideal circumstances, their regeneration ability is like a 4+ after save. But sadly, it has a bunch of hoops you need to jump through. The way it works (if my translation of the spanish warscroll is correct) is that if they are activated to fight, they get to roll a dice for each Skeleton Warrior model from their unit that died in that combat phase. This is significant healing and a strong ability. But it means that Skeletons will not get it if they are activated first (before losing models), if they are wiped out befor activating or if they take damage from ranged, magic or charge-phase damage sources. However, not all is bad: They do get their regeneration before battleshock and they can potentially get it twice if you cast Vanhel's on them, which turns that spell into a healing spell for them.

New skeleton warriors ask a question: Can you wipe a unit of 30 with a 5+ save, 6+ FNP in one attack? If not, these guys are sticking around. Unfortunately, for all good hammers the answer to that question will be "yes". But if unit sizes get smaller in AoS 3, the Skeleton Warrior's stock might rise a bit.

My take: Run these guys in a max-size block and stick them on an objective. That's their role. Don't try to make them offensive. You don't really even need to support them at all.

Grave Guard

Old Grave Guard were already good for what they were, slow offensive melee guys, and they just got more offensive in the new book.

Old Grave Guard were, in my opinion, and underrated hammer in LoN. They did good damage and absorbed offensive buffs well, but frequently needed one or two buffs to really deal with high armour saves (2+ or 3+ with an FNP). Previously, their shields version was bad, and they needed Great Wight Blades to be worth taking.

For new Grave Guard, both loadouts actually seem good. Shields put you on a 4+ save and your damage and thanks to mortal wounds on 6s to wound in addition and a nice 2 attacks on an elite offensive profile, your damage output is still high. Great Wight Blades get damage 2 attacks instead, which is insanely killy.

Where these guys still struggle is the same place they struggled before: Their movement is low. This is what you should be focussing on with these guys, getting them where you need them to go. Fortunately, there are lots of deep strikes and ambushes available in this book.

My take: Run 20 or 30 of these guys. Loadout depends on what you can buff more easily, saves or offense. These guys need maybe one offensive buff to kill anything they touch, with Great Wight Blades they likely need no buffs at all.

Black Knights

The big losers of the Deathrattle subfaction.

Black Knights used to be kinda expensive cavalry that did lots of damage on the charge, but had no rend. Previously, when built around, they could explode low-save battleline units handily. And if they didn't die, they could generally tie up the opponent for a turn, then be resurrected again later turn 3 or 4 and go in for another big charge.

Now, Black Knights don't seem to do much of anything. They do a little more than 1 damage per model now, on the charge or off, but gained impact hits (d3 mortals). They are defensively not good enough for their points, either, so they can't even really tarpit things.

My take: A big disappointment. Black Knights were a unit that was already only situationally good before, now I don't even see a situation where they can really be anything other than a fast move with 2 wounds per model. And Direwolves just do that better.

Wight Kings

The new Wight Kings are bad. But in a way, that's not really a change, because the old Wight Kings were bad as well.

We can basically skip over their offensive stats. They are not worth it for the points, but OK for support heroes. Their big problem is that they don't offer any support capabilities. So at this point, why even take a Wight King? The answer is to make Grave Guard battleline if they are your general. But really, if you only run one Grave Guard block, just grab a min-size unit of battleline instead.

Of the old Wight Kings, only the mounted version had a role, which was to ride along with Black Knights and give them +1 attack and assorted other bonuses through artefacts or the Deathmarch battalion. Since Black Knights are now potentially the worst unit in the book, that niche is gone. And new Wight Kings don't even give extra attacks anymore.

My take: Get a Vampire Lord or Necromancer instead.

Deathmarch

The Deathmarch battalion is back! It still gives buffs movement, but only by 3" instead of 4". It also provides this movement in a worse way, since it's now a buff to only 3 units from the battalion and a bonus to their normal move, not a straight up hero phase move. The battalion lost it's healing ability.

The compostion of this battalion has also changed. It used to be 1 Wight King, 1 Grave Guard, 1 Black Knights, 3 Skeleton Warriors. It's now 1 Wight King 1-3 Grave Guard, 1-3 Black Knights, 2+ Skeleton Warriors. 120 Points down from 150.

Old Deathmarch was the only good LoN battalion. There was a combo with a Legion of Sacrament command trait which let you charge your Black Knights into the opponent's deployment zone turn 1 and gave everything else in the battalion essentially +7" movement at least for turn 1. Those combos don't exist anymore, and Black Knights are bad now, so what do we make of Deathmarch?

My take: Deathmarch has too many tax units to be good. You might want a unit of Grave Guard and two units of Skeletons, but you really don't want to pay 355 additonal points to give them +3" movement. Plus, chances are this battalion will only stick around in matched play until AoS 3 comes out, anyway.

Of note: There is some possible jank in Deathmarch: The description says that if you give a unit +3" movement, it can still either run or charge. This is not qualified with anything, so one could argue that this gives you retreat and charge if you don't run. But this is pure rules abuse and could not possibly be intended.

Subfactions

Three subfactions are viable choices for lists that want to bring Deathrattle.

Legion of Night

Provides +1 saves for Deathrattle turn 1 and gives you access to ambushing which helps with their low movement.

Nothing in particular to help Deathrattle in the command traits. Artefacts are unknown.

Legion of Blood

Black Knights battleline (lol) and immunity to hit/wound debuffs for Deathrattle. That last one is good for Grave Guard. Take Shield Grave Guard and send a Vampire Lord with them for a guaranteed 3 attack 3+/3+ profile and Deathless Minions save. Really good against those armies that rely on debuffs, not so good against those that don't.

Legion of Blood also gives a bonus to battleshock (d3 extra models flee if any flee). Not exactly strong at the moment, but there is some synergy with Deathrattle since they provide -1 bravery naturally, up to -2 if two units are close. If AoS 3 removes Inspiring Presence, this might become relevant.

There are a few good command traits here. Reroll charges helps with slow movement. As does +3" pile in distance. Those two would work well on a VLoZD or Coven Throne, since their large bases make for big bubbles.

The artefacts also offer nice choices, but not specific synergies. There is a +1 to saves artefact that lets you put a VLoZD on a 2+, or a Coven Throne on a 3+, so your buff pieces can stick around longer.

Vyrkos

Straight-foreward +1 to wound for Deathrattle. So that's good! Makes Great Weapon Grave Guard basically self-sufficient offensively. Put the Coven Throne CA on them for a 2+/2+/-1/2 profile if you like overkill. Reroll casts is also good. Vanhel's Danse Macabre from Necromancers is still a huge deal, and this makes it very likely to go off.

Command traits: Once-per-turn free command ability looks juicy on a Coven Throne. Reroll charges is generally good.

Artefacts are still unknown.

Overall conclusion

Deathrattle infantry can be the backbone (lol) of your list if you want it to be. Skeleton Warriors are probably our tankiest battleline and Grave Guard are a blender unit worth building around. Legion of Blood might be a sleeper hit in AoS 3.

However, you will have to venture outside of Deathrattle for fast units. Black Knights cannot compete with Dire Wolves. Deathmarch is also no longer good. Mixed forces are probably the way to go.

 

[JackStreicher]

@Neil Arthur Hotep very well summarized. I agree entirely.

[RuneBrush]

17 hours ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

Unrelated but not really, can we now get a Soulblight gravelord strategy thread since we mostly have rules?

I'll sort out the new threads when the book drops in just over a week.  Have just popped up a poll so people can vote on how they'd prefer them to be structured

16 hours ago, Verminlord said:

I can't understand wight kings getting RR1s as their only ability if that generic command ability is staying, but even so, I can't imagine a more boring combat buff than RR1s 😢

I think there are some good builds in this book, namely vykros and avengori, but I can't help but be dissapointed with deathrattle. Seems like they didn't know what to do with them. Just random bonuses in each bloodline but no effort to give them synergy/Interactions...

I'd not be too hasty on making a judgement on the book yet - it's not even up for preorder and we know it's been written with AoS 3 changes in mind.

9 hours ago, Aturox said:

Did anyone notice that the vamps with the specific allegiance keyword in the warscroll wont benefit from others? So no added bonus and no allegiance to the named vampires when playing in another legion.

Its stated under the allegiance abilities

That's pretty standard now.  It's GW basically nudging you to playing something that makes more thematic sense

9 hours ago, Doko said:

So esqueletons:

...

I guess i wont buy any new skeleton and use my 10 from the start collecting as grave guard

Firstly don't forget that we've only got a translation from a spanish warscroll!  I'd also be cautious at using the old skeletons as grave guard as they don't have a massive amount of armour on the miniature - not saying don't do it, just make sure your opponent knows what they're facing to avoid confusion and any awkward moments 😉

[FeralMulan]

@Neil Arthur Hotep very good analysis! It's a shame that magnetising little skeletons seems WAY hard, as I'm not sure if Great Weapons or Shields will win out of Grave Guard.

I'm curious whether Big Hammer units (Blood Knights or Grave Guard as the only real options) will be the faction focus, or if we turn into HeroHammer with Kastelei or Avengorii and 80-100 zombies. Time will tell.

[Erdemo86]

I was really hyped to start with this army and preorder this weekend but now I’m very confused. Big blobs of zombies was not my imagination of Vampires.. i think I will step back.. 

my imagination was something like a lot of Blood Knights lead by Prince V. And yeah it’s possible but don’t think That it will be a Good List.. sad, but true.

Yeah you can try to make it happen but big Zombie blobs seems the best way to go if you want to be a bit competitive.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Erdemo86

[JackStreicher]

Also a possiblity would be a solid core of Grave guards. Yet you'd need a wight king as general (if you want to keep your core cheap and effective)
1x Wight King (steed or non steed +-15 pts) 115/130
2x 20 Grave Guard 560
1x 20 Zombies 115
---> 790/805 and you already pack quite a punch with your "core" units
But do you really want to field a Wight wight? Seems like a waste tbh

This Core should work well with Vyrkos, Legion of Blood/Night


Edit: I just can't find a good use for Skeletons. Imo they melt way too fast and will require you to spent a CP for inspiring presence or even their heal will be vaporated by losing the combat by a gazillion. Idk. If they had rend 1 they'd be very interesting. Yet they are currently more expensive than Zombies and they offer way less synergy potential.

Cheapest Core we can build is (points per wound)
3x Zombies for 345 (3.833 points per wound) Pros: Damage and self heal, Pile-in Shenanigans
3x Dire Wolves for 405 (6.75 points per wound) Pros: Super fast and even killy on the charge
3x Skeletons 255 (8.5 points per wound) Pros: ? (as mentioned above: the heal is too bad and too restricted), same armour as the doggos, less killy than the doggos. I don't see a use tbh

Edited May 14, 2021 by JackStreicher
spelling

[FeralMulan]

5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Also a possiblity would be a solid core of Grave guards. Yet you'd need a wight king as general (if you want to keep your core cheap and effective)
1x Wight King (steed or non steed +-15 pts) 115/130
2x 20 Grave Guard 560
1x 20 Zombies 115
---> 790/805 and you already pack quite a punch with your "core" units
But do you really want to field a Wight wight? Seems like a waste tbh

This Core should work well with Vyrkos, Legion of Blood/Night

Give the Wight King Aristocracy of Blood and have the Guards pop out of Graveyards.... MAYBE.
The margin of error for setting up grave-sites where you can charge easily but your enemy won't block you seems super small.

Or forget the Wight King, add some Doggos for objective holding, have a Zombie Dragon Lord with Swift Form, and embrace the Ambush.

Edited May 14, 2021 by FeralMulan

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

 

4 minutes ago, FeralMulan said:

It's a shame that magnetising little skeletons seems WAY hard, as I'm not sure if Great Weapons or Shields will win out of Grave Guard.

In my opinion that really depends on what AoS 3 will do with buff capping. If only hit and wound buffs get capped, but saves don't, I think getting Grave Guard on a potential 3+ save with shields looks very good. Even though we don't get as much healing anymore, we still get like 5 free models back per hero phase. That's an effective 15 wounds on a 3+ save.

However, if saves cap at +1, I think great blades might have the edge. They are also good as a budget option if you don't want to spring for big heroes: Great Blades with +1 attack from a vamp lord deal the same damage as Great Blades with the Coven Throne buff. If you don't care that much about their save, 20 Grave Guard with a Vamp Lord are definitely a good budget hammer. Even more so in Vyrkos.

[FeralMulan]

What's everyone's opinions on the relics so far BTW? Seeing a lot of "Once per Battle" stuff with mediocre effects:

 - Orb of Enchantment - is it worth it, now that it might fail?
 - Grave Sand Shard - 5+ FNP for a turn looks good, but once per battle again. Is it better than perma -1 wound but only against melee?
 - Avengorii is the poster child for this: Once per battle reroll wounds (of 1), once per battle MAYBE D6 mortals, once per battle MAYBE mortals on a charge. Oh and mutations, eat a 1 wound enemy for one healing, once per battle run and charge, and anti magic if next to them. Anyone seeing anything in these?

Incidentally, did anyone notice that out of the 3 "mutations" only the third one is a mutation? The first two are just "am hungry" and "am late".