Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[GrimDork]

12 hours ago, GrimDork said:

Not had chance to listen to this yet so don't know all the details, but thought it might be of interest here. Reports of Lumineth winning a tourney!

 

So, I listened to the details on the LRL tournament winning list. It's a one drop list designed to maximise Sentinel shooting (see attached).

 Cast twinstones, cast spell portal, then cast lambent light through portal (for rerolls to hit with missile weapons against target you want dead), then power of hysh on the 4 units of sentinels, then go fishing for 5's & 6's. Ouch!

Not sure on all the artefact choices.

WarscrollBuilderList.pdf

[LuminethMage]

6 hours ago, woolf said:

twin stones seems to effectively grant everyone in range consistent +2 to cast then?

also still not entirely clear to me if it resets in case spell is failed or unbound? ie if used to buff the caster

Yes, it’s a +2 after the first cast, some people already interpreted it like that.

To me it sounds like it doesn’t reset and nothing gets added in case the spell fails or is unbound. It just stays at its original value at that time. 

[SentinelGuy]

My excitement for the return of proper elves has diminished slightly after reading the book. The lore isn't bad at all really, it's just the lack of units which seems a bit silly when they mention them and they don't get an entry. I honestly wouldn't bet money on there being a future release any time soon which covers them. Cities didn't get cannons and every novel that features them mentions cannons, skellies still don't have archers even though Neferata's forces are described as having bows.

In the old days I'd have said it was just GW being GW - that a new book and kits would drop a year from now, because why sell one army book when you can milk fans for two? Now I think they've just been focusing more on 40k and have dropped the ball with AoS on some of the last few releases. Lots of cool looking minis, some of their best ever, but the rules are all over the place and feel a tad incomplete.

I'm keen to get the Lumineth on the table and try them out, I think there's the basis of a cool faction here and I'm definitely in the pro-helmet crowd. Just kind of wish there was an un-named choppy hero and a chariot or artillery piece. There's not exactly much meat on the bones and I think playing them is going to get stale pretty quickly. I'll be keeping them as a second army I think.

[Nighthaunt Noob]

8 hours ago, woolf said:

twin stones seems to effectively grant everyone in range consistent +2 to cast then?

also still not entirely clear to me if it resets in case spell is failed or unbound? ie if used to buff the caster

I'm not sure this is accurate.

It isn't always +2 after. It depends if the cast was successful. If you draw upon the Twinstones on every cast, the 1st cast will be at +1, and every cast after that would be +2 if the prior cast was successful, or +1 if the prior cast was unsuccessful.*

*Unless the consensus is that the value doesn't reset on a failed cast, which is an interpretation I can see the textual merit to, but seems unlikely that it was intended that way.

 

It is sad that GW still allows rules confusion even after an errata. How hard would it be to respond to questions more frequently (similar to how DnD does)?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Nighthaunt Noob

[Acid_Nine]

3 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

My excitement for the return of proper elves has diminished slightly after reading the book. The lore isn't bad at all really, it's just the lack of units which seems a bit silly when they mention them and they don't get an entry. I honestly wouldn't bet money on there being a future release any time soon which covers them. Cities didn't get cannons and every novel that features them mentions cannons, skellies still don't have archers even though Neferata's forces are described as having bows.

In the old days I'd have said it was just GW being GW - that a new book and kits would drop a year from now, because why sell one army book when you can milk fans for two? Now I think they've just been focusing more on 40k and have dropped the ball with AoS on some of the last few releases. Lots of cool looking minis, some of their best ever, but the rules are all over the place and feel a tad incomplete.

I'm keen to get the Lumineth on the table and try them out, I think there's the basis of a cool faction here and I'm definitely in the pro-helmet crowd. Just kind of wish there was an un-named choppy hero and a chariot or artillery piece. There's not exactly much meat on the bones and I think playing them is going to get stale pretty quickly. I'll be keeping them as a second army I think.

Yea, I feel that 40K has been taking a lot of the rules writer’s time. I like what we have now, but I agree that there is some places that should have been expanded on, that rules should have been thought out properly, gaps in the model range filled up and explored. 
 

what kills me is that the gaps could have been filled with what was left over from the old high elf range. We could have taken the lore master for ourselves as the new lore seeker with an updated warscroll, the archmage as another hero to work along side our units, the dragon princes as heavy Calvary and the two drake riding elves as other close combat heroes. Heck, just plug in the sky cutter as well and we can have some fun. But instead we got a big chunk missing that should have been expanded on, an anemic unit choice, and a nice big lack of choice. Fluff wise I think that more info could have been given to the modern times, like governments and cities that exist currently, but even that seems a bit up in the air.

[Tiberius501]

I’m mainly just getting impatient for our full release in September. It’s felt like a lifetime of waiting around for these bros! 

[woolf]

7 hours ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

I'm not sure this is accurate.

It isn't always +2 after. It depends if the cast was successful. If you draw upon the Twinstones on every cast, the 1st cast will be at +1, and every cast after that would be +2 if the prior cast was successful, or +1 if the prior cast was unsuccessful.*

*Unless the consensus is that the value doesn't reset on a failed cast, which is an interpretation I can see the textual merit to, but seems unlikely that it was intended that way.

 

It is sad that GW still allows rules confusion even after an errata. How hard would it be to respond to questions more frequently (similar to how DnD does)?

So clearly the first cast is only at +1. And I also would agree with you that this interpretation seems more logical, i.e. you use the power in the crystal to get +X to your casting roll and then its depleted, regardless of the cast was successful or not. After that if you had a successful cast you can add 1 to the crystal.

However the ambiguity is that why then did they write it like that? the text says: ".... add X to casting roll. Then, after the effects of the spell have been resolved, change the value of the dice beside this model back to 1". So for the above interpretation you would have to read this as ".... add X to casting roll. Then change the value of the dice beside this model back to 1 (and in case the spell is successful and not unbound, change the dice after the effects of the spell have been resolved)".

Given interpretation you suggest, I think it would seem much more logical to write the rule with the italic bit simply removed, or can anyone see another reason for why that is added? Also the errata states that you can first reset and then add +1 to the dice from the same casting, which would have been clear if this bit of the text wasn't there as then it would read: 1. draw the power, 2. reset, 3. add +1 to the dice if the spell was successful. So the way the rule is currently written I would read it as the "after the effects of the spell have been resolved"-statement is actually a condition for the re-set to be triggered and hence if the cast is unbound or unsuccessful, the dice value would not be re-set to 1.

Anyways, I emailed their FAQ-team so maybe it gets added in the next rounds, which presumably is X-mas... ^^

In meantime I will probably play it as you suggest even though strictly speaking I don't think that is what the rule literally says, but at least its the more "intuitive" way to play it and also there is no risk of getting an advantage vs the opponent from rules ambiguity. Would however be very interesting to hear from someone with TO experience how they would judge this in a tournament situation.

Cheers,

[Howdyhedberg]

Hi y'all! 

I have been looking at this forum for months but haven't joined. But now I had a question that made me join the community.

In the designer's commentary it says the following:

Q: If a friendly Syar unit that is wholly within 18" of a 
friendly Syar Hero uses the ‘Deplete Reserves’ command 
ability, is it possible to use both of that unit’s aetherquartz 
reserves on the same ability (such as ‘Heightened Senses’) in the 
same phase?
A: Yes.

 

If that unit uses 2 quartz on for example heightened senses, does that grant the unit +2 to hit rolls?

 

[woolf]

17 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Hi y'all! 

I have been looking at this forum for months but haven't joined. But now I had a question that made me join the community.

In the designer's commentary it says the following:

Q: If a friendly Syar unit that is wholly within 18" of a 
friendly Syar Hero uses the ‘Deplete Reserves’ command 
ability, is it possible to use both of that unit’s aetherquartz 
reserves on the same ability (such as ‘Heightened Senses’) in the 
same phase?
A: Yes.

 

If that unit uses 2 quartz on for example heightened senses, does that grant the unit +2 to hit rolls?

 

yes, and it gets -2 to bravery (one of which a single cathallar can stop)

[Howdyhedberg]

 

32 minutes ago, woolf said:

yes, and it gets -2 to bravery (one of which a single cathallar can stop)

Sweet! Thanks for the reply.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Howdyhedberg

[Falkman]

2 hours ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Hi y'all! 

I have been looking at this forum for months but haven't joined. But now I had a question that made me join the community.

In the designer's commentary it says the following:

Q: If a friendly Syar unit that is wholly within 18" of a 
friendly Syar Hero uses the ‘Deplete Reserves’ command 
ability, is it possible to use both of that unit’s aetherquartz 
reserves on the same ability (such as ‘Heightened Senses’) in the 
same phase?
A: Yes.

 

If that unit uses 2 quartz on for example heightened senses, does that grant the unit +2 to hit rolls?

 

Yes, Age of Sigmar does not have a default rule that stops abilities of the same name from stacking, which confused me as well initially. Other games tend to stop you from doing that.

[Yondaime]

3 hours ago, woolf said:

yes, and it gets -2 to bravery (one of which a single cathallar can stop)

Where it is written that a cathallar can stop only 1 aetherquarz?

It could be good do give -1 to multiple units thanks to the additional shard

[woolf]

9 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

Where it is written that a cathallar can stop only 1 aetherquarz?

It could be good do give -1 to multiple units thanks to the additional shard

on pg 65 under the absorb despair ability. you can only use a cathallar once per phase (you can ofc have multiple cathallars though to use it multiple times). 

[Yondaime]

30 minutes ago, woolf said:

on pg 65 under the absorb despair ability. you can only use a cathallar once per phase (you can ofc have multiple cathallars though to use it multiple times). 

Once per phase, so if i use a shard on movement, and one in combat/shooting, it should be fine

[Tiberius501]

I still can’t decide on whether to make a squad of 10 Horsies or 2 units of 5. I would love a big unit of 10, but I feel like they won’t get into melee and it’ll waste them.

[woolf]

6 hours ago, Yondaime said:

Once per phase, so if i use a shard on movement, and one in combat/shooting, it should be fine

yep thats fine. what I referred to was just regarding adding 2+ to hit, ie use 2 aetherquartz in the same phase

Edited August 4, 2020 by woolf

[Chumphammer]

4 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

I still can’t decide on whether to make a squad of 10 Horsies or 2 units of 5. I would love a big unit of 10, but I feel like they won’t get into melee and it’ll waste them.

I have tried 5 (twice) and 10 (once).

5 alone can die quickly, and 10 can hit hard but can be a good target for the opponent. I want to use these, and yes they are good on the charge vs 1W infantry, but I am struggling a little. I am going to try 2 x 5, maybe working together using the 2 can attack for 1 on combat. 




 

[Chumphammer]

This extended release for Lumineth is balls. They were teased in January, then army shown in March. Its now August and we still have like what, 1 hero and 2 units released in a limited box?

And I am sick of the Covid excuse. Yes, Covid is a global ******, but how come every other form of mail/deliveries seem to be going through. My company internationally ships and we haven't stopped. The fact 40K release has come out out, shows they probably have the stuff sitting in the warehouses ready to go right now.

Secondly, yes its half an army, and it misses a look of "ompf" the army could have. Yes, sentinels are good, but frankly I shouldn't have to take 40-80 Archers to feel like I can win games. 

The fact we have 2 non character heroes, and neither of them if a combat one, is a pain. We have two super squishy general options. That’s lame.

Anyway, I will keep trying them and do alternative options, but I wont run then at an event.

[Chumphammer]

So my last list was ok, but I noticed some elements that I wanna try changing. Mainly:

1: 10 knight get stuck in combat its isnt great, impact they do well, but then just fizzle out. Wanna try 2x5

2: Light of Eltharion just dies. It looks like he should be tanky and do stuff, but he just flat out dies to 1w shooting and magic (this was running him inside 30 wardens with Protection up)

3: Wardens can get work done, they really can, only if you roll well.

4: Our heroes are so squishy

5: Not having assault of stone was missed as it is great for dealing with big block low save units

6: Sentinals are great, IF you get the light spell off or IF you can roll 5/6. I had a turn of shooting where I think I for 4MW over 27 Sentinal shots. 

So, taking this into account and my previous experience, I made this to try next this morning:


Zaitrec
Alarith Stonemage - General, Fast learner, pretty pointless Zaitrec artifact tax (Assault of Stone)
Scinari Cathaller - Silver Wand (Eclipse/protection)
Avalenor The stoneheart king 
10 Vanari Auralan Wardens (Ethereal)
10 Vanari Auralan Wardens (Protection)
10 Vanari Auralan Sentinals (Eclipse)
10 Vanari Auralan Sentinals (Solar Flare)
10 Vanari Auralan Sentinals (Ethereal)
5 Vanari Auralan Dawnriders (Speed)
5 Vanari Auralan Dawnriders (Etheral) 
15 Alarith Stoneguard
Auralan Legion
Hyshian Twinstones
 

[LuminethMage]

@Chumphammer Thanks for the info! I hope that list works, because it would be great if such a combined list does well. Something I’ll also try after having had my fun with Teclis. 

Edit: Talking 100% out of my a.. here, just based on the issues I have thinking about my 1,000 points Zaitrec list and looking at your spell list above: You might want to try out Teclis once and see if he really is eliminated that easily by your opponents. They are also taking a risk - if Teclis survives, you likely will be in a good position to hit them back hard. 

I think without Teclis you just don't have enough casts (as stupid as that sounds) to make a Vanari-heavy Zaitrec list work that well. Everyone is a one-cast Wizard, and with most of them you want to cast PoH almost all of the time. You basically have like 2 to 4 spells to do something different. So there's almost no chance to use the Warscroll spell of the Cathallar or Overwhelming Heat etc. . No whammy on morale via Voice of the Mountain, no opportunity to just kill a single unit etc. Most of what you are trying to do is likely Protection of Hysh, Eclipse and maybe Lambent Light, Speed of Hysh or Ethereal. Or if you do all the extra stuff, most of your troops won't fight that well as you pointed out above. 

If you think Teclis is just too risky, maybe try out Balewind or Cogs, or go with Syar maybe to have the option to use one of your quartz for an additional spell or force a spell through when you really need it. I guess right now you mostly use the quartz defensively. 

Your mixed list above sounds like really fun though, so that just might be the right way to do it. Lot's of additional synergies in there, which don't all rely on casting spells. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by LuminethMage

[Tiberius501]

1 hour ago, Chumphammer said:

I have tried 5 (twice) and 10 (once).

5 alone can die quickly, and 10 can hit hard but can be a good target for the opponent. I want to use these, and yes they are good on the charge vs 1W infantry, but I am struggling a little. I am going to try 2 x 5, maybe working together using the 2 can attack for 1 on combat. 




 

Thanks for the reply. You’ll have to let me know how 2x5 goes!

[whispersofblood]

9 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

@Chumphammer Thanks for the info! I hope that list works, because it would be great if such a combined list does well. Something I’ll also try after having had my fun with Teclis. 

Edit: Talking 100% out of my a.. here, just based on the issues I have thinking about my 1,000 points Zaitrec list and looking at your spell list above: You might want to try out Teclis once and see if he really is eliminated that easily by your opponents. They are also taking a risk - if Teclis survives, you likely will be in a good position to hit them back hard. 

I think without Teclis you just don't have enough casts (as stupid as that sounds) to make a Vanari-heavy Zaitrec list work that well. Everyone is a one-cast Wizard, and with most of them you want to cast PoH almost all of the time. You basically have like 2 to 4 spells to do something different. So there's almost no chance to use the Warscroll spell of the Cathallar or Overwhelming Heat etc. . No whammy on morale via Voice of the Mountain, no opportunity to just kill a single unit etc. Most of what you are trying to do is likely Protection of Hysh, Eclipse and maybe Lambent Light, Speed of Hysh or Ethereal. Or if you do all the extra stuff, most of your troops won't fight that well as you pointed out above. 

If you think Teclis is just too risky, maybe try out Balewind or Cogs, or go with Syar maybe to have the option to use one of your quartz for an additional spell or force a spell through when you really need it. I guess right now you mostly use the quartz defensively. 

Your mixed list above sounds like really fun though, so that just might be the right way to do it. Lot's of additional synergies in there, which don't all rely on casting spells. 

The problem is that taking Teclis doesn't resolve the low cast problem. If you want am army at all you have to not take heroncasters anyway. It really a wash on the volume count, and there are times where the game state will require something other than spamming mw.

For example at 18" range the sentinel profile is still putting out pretty close to the same dmg as the empowered 30" profile. So instead of casting PoH you can have your Sentinels casting ethereal or speed of hysh.

My problem with Teclis is that he basically forces you to play max Sentinels to ensure you do enough dmg early that his loss bottom of turn 2 is manageable. Which is just an alpha strike army, that can get out dropped.

[LuminethMage]

38 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The problem is that taking Teclis doesn't resolve the low cast problem. If you want am army at all you have to not take heroncasters anyway. It really a wash on the volume count, and there are times where the game state will require something other than spamming mw.

For example at 18" range the sentinel profile is still putting out pretty close to the same dmg as the empowered 30" profile. So instead of casting PoH you can have your Sentinels casting ethereal or speed of hysh.

My problem with Teclis is that he basically forces you to play max Sentinels to ensure you do enough dmg early that his loss bottom of turn 2 is manageable. Which is just an alpha strike army, that can get out dropped.

I think that’s debatable. sure, not all of your units will always cast PoH, and you’ll have more units than when taking him. 

But In most cases you won’t have 4 auto casts for different things than PoH, if you don’t use Teclis, and he’ll take care of the “must haves”, which frees up your hero caster(s) to do something else. Plus, you have more variety in what you can cast at any given time. 

You’d need more than just 4 units of normal troops to cast 4 non-PoW with the same reliability as Teclis. 

Of course it’s all situational, and it would be bad if Teclis is always the best solution under any circumstances. 

Edit: Writing this on the road - the reason for my previous post was that he said that not having PoH was problem because he felt that the units aren’t good enough with it. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by LuminethMage

[whispersofblood]

59 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

I think that’s debatable. sure, not all of your units will always cast PoH, and you’ll have more units than when taking him. 

But In most cases you won’t have 4 auto casts for different things than PoH, if you don’t use Teclis, and he’ll take care of the “must haves”, which frees up your hero caster(s) to do something else. Plus, you have more variety in what you can cast at any given time. 

You’d need more than just 4 units of normal troops to cast 4 non-PoW with the same reliability as Teclis. 

Of course it’s all situational, and it would be bad if Teclis is always the best solution under any circumstances. 

Edit: Writing this on the road - the reason for my previous post was that he said that not having PoH was problem because he felt that the units aren’t good enough with it. 

 

 

I idea would be taking heroes not more Vanari. The quality of the casts are going to be much more variable obviously, but you can manage that with easy access to a +2/3 with Zaitric and Twinstones.

Further Teclis won't be casting must haves because the army doesn't do that much dmg if you take Teclis, he'll be casting dmg spells, and Shield. So really its 2 utility spells. 

I think the difference in opinion is measuring exactly what you are getting from Teclis. To me its the following:

Protection of Teclis

Storm of Searing White Light

Aura of Celennar (which lets the player take a different City)

So really the conversation is about those benefits in the hero phase, compared to the following 3.

1. The potential for 2 more reliable casts at "10" or the casts of your heroes at potentially +2 or 3 
2. The potential in every other phase
3. How many models you have for objective play

The answer will largely depend on your local community and how long Teclis will survive on average. The longer you can have Teclis on the board the more the choice seems to align with taking him. So perhaps we should figure out how many turns on average Teclis needs to be doing Teclis stuff to be break even?

[stratigo]

I mean, right now you take teclis because they borked one of his rules and he can put up a cog or lifeswarm and then bounce mortal wounds onto the enemy.

 

Cluster an MSU army around him, put up a cog or lifeswarm, and suddenly you are putting out like 5d3 mortal wounds.