AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

3 hours ago, Bayul said:

I don't criticize your statement, but the foreseeable internal balance of the book – among Marks of Chaos and Damned Legions.

edit: ...or nobody figured out how meta-warpingly broken Tzeentch actually is yet.

I think Tzeentch Ravagers could be a sleeper hit, honestly. There's some really crazy movement/move-block possibilities there, and that is a big deal. Spend your reinforcement points on big blocks of Iron Golems an/or Splintered Fang and season with other stuff where needed. Probably a Daemon Prince with the trophy rack to lead plus a cheap support hero or two. If I was less into the armored side of things, I'd give it a try.

 

As it is, my current list looks something like this:

 

Sub-faction: Cabalists

Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs

Triumph: Bloodthirsty

*Warlord (Spell Enhancement)                                 

**Bounty Hunters

                                                                                                           

*Chaos Lord on Karkadrak                                

                Undivided

                General

                                Command Trait: Idolator Lord

                                                Prayer Scripture: Curse

Artifact: Conqueror’s Crown

Spell: Daemonic Speed

Spell: Chaotic Conduit

*Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore                    

                Undvided

                Spell: Chaotic Conduit

                Spell: Binding Damnation

                Spell: Daemonic Speed

*Chaos Sorcerer Lord

                Undivided

                Spell: Chaotic Conduit

                Spell: Ghost Mist

                Spell: Binding Damnation

 

(Allies) Ungor Raiders

(Allies) Ungor Raiders

*Chaos Warriors

                Undivided

                Murderous Weapons

**Chaos Knights

                Undivided

**Chaos Knights

                Undivided

**Chosen

                Undivided

                Reinforced x1

                                Ensorcelled Banner: The Dread Banner

(Endless Spell) Chronomantic Cogs    

 

Total Points: 1995

Models: 53 + Endless Spell

Wounds: 126

Drops: 9

Edited November 8, 2022 by RocketPropelledGrenade

[ChaosUndivided]

As much as i like the Khorne mark it has pretty limited potential. It only last for one round of combat. This isn't a new mechanic, lots of things get bonus on charges, and its often not relied upon cuz your lucky to get more than one charge off per game per unit (particularly non-hammers), where as the other marks are every turn bonus all game.

The Blood Secrator may seem like a good choice but you would basically have to forgo magic as he forces even you to reroll successful cast and your not slinging endless spells around. The Sorc Lord is still pretty much an auto include in my book still. The auto 6+ ward is a far cry from a flat +1 save but its still better than nothing and his spell is still incredibly strong, i noticed there was very limited ways to get +1 to hit now. I think currently the Blood Stoker is better Khorne option.

The Gaunt Summoner possibly getting sniped top of turn 1 makes it not worth trying. Even if it works sometimes its super gimmicky gotcha thing that has hard counters.

It feels like 5 Knights doesnt capitalize on their lance range enuff. I played a game the other day and had a unit of 10 Knights marked Khorne with the banner and they slapped but that had a lot to do with all of them getting to attack.

I did get the Kark Lords special ability off but it actually kinda boned me cuz he fights first then Knights do. The problem is that this can only happen during your own turn where you get to fight first anyway which left my Varanguard exposed to getting smacked before they could kill their target. If it allowed you to fight at the top of enemies turn it would be far more impactful. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

6 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

I did get the Kark Lords special ability off but it actually kinda boned me cuz he fights first then Knights do. The problem is that this can only happen during your own turn where you get to fight first anyway which left my Varanguard exposed to getting smacked before they could kill their target. If it allowed you to fight at the top of enemies turn it would be far more impactful. 

If you have three units fighting on your turn, and two of them get fight first, you fight before your opponent with all three. Two in the fight first sub phase, then one as your normal selection.

Edited November 8, 2022 by RocketPropelledGrenade
clarity

[ChaosUndivided]

Ok well i played that wrong then and its better than i thought. I did have the Helm of Oppressor on him which was more brutal than his own attacks which made me wonder if i shoulda took the Daemonic Mount and spent 50 points elsewhere tho.

[Ravinsild]

18 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

As much as i like the Khorne mark it has pretty limited potential. It only last for one round of combat. This isn't a new mechanic, lots of things get bonus on charges, and its often not relied upon cuz your lucky to get more than one charge off per game per unit (particularly non-hammers), where as the other marks are every turn bonus all game.

The Blood Secrator may seem like a good choice but you would basically have to forgo magic as he forces even you to reroll successful cast and your not slinging endless spells around. The Sorc Lord is still pretty much an auto include in my book still. The auto 6+ ward is a far cry from a flat +1 save but its still better than nothing and his spell is still incredibly strong, i noticed there was very limited ways to get +1 to hit now. I think currently the Blood Stoker is better Khorne option.

The Gaunt Summoner possibly getting sniped top of turn 1 makes it not worth trying. Even if it works sometimes its super gimmicky gotcha thing that has hard counters.

It feels like 5 Knights doesnt capitalize on their lance range enuff. I played a game the other day and had a unit of 10 Knights marked Khorne with the banner and they slapped but that had a lot to do with all of them getting to attack.

I did get the Kark Lords special ability off but it actually kinda boned me cuz he fights first then Knights do. The problem is that this can only happen during your own turn where you get to fight first anyway which left my Varanguard exposed to getting smacked before they could kill their target. If it allowed you to fight at the top of enemies turn it would be far more impactful. 

Don't forget for 1 CP you can gain an aura wholly within 12'' with the Aspiring Deathbringer, as a magical friendly alternative to the Bloodsecrator for the low low price of 80 points. 

Alternatively, for only 20 more points than the Bloodsecrator, you could include a unit of Wrathmongers who are interesting in their own way, and as a follow along unit can provide another unit (basically) a +1 to attack. Khorne has several ally units which could provide +1 to attack, however this again seems like a limited lifespan opportunity. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Ravinsild

[readercolin]

When looking at the various marks, Khorne is the easiest and the flashiest, which is why most people are gravitating towards it.  After all, everyone wants more attacks, especially with the unit that got the biggest glowup in this book - Chaos Knights.  To top that all off, Khorne easily has the best allies to pull from with potentially up to 3 additional units providing +1 attack aura's AND the bloodstoker for more movement (whereas nurgle provides not much, tzeentch some spell casters, and slannesh... Sigvald? some poor shooting?).  All of this combines to make them the easiest mark for people to gravitate to.  Especially when everyone who had a bunch of knights really wanted to charge with them and have something happen.

After that, nurgle is the easiest to discern the value of.  -1 to wound makes thing more tanky.  Put on 3+ save unit, laugh at opponent.  Simple enough.

After that, the next most obvious one is slaanesh for +1 to run and charge, and a CP for run and charge.  Extra mobility is always nice, but can be difficult to use well, and isn't as obvious as khorne and nurgle.  Their banner lets you combine that together with the +1 attacks on charges that Khorne gets as well for some extra fun, and they also have the warshrine prayer for 3d6 charge on top of that.

From here, we can see solid reasons to play all 3 of these marks, all for different reasons.  Heck, you might play all 3 of these marks in the same list.  None of them make the mathhammer nerds tingle more than khorne, but there is something for everyone here.

Then we get to Tzeentch.  Lets be honest here, unless you are facing tzeentch, the 6+ spell shrug is rather mediocre (and even then, 6+ is just poor), which means the utility of this is all built around how good the teleport is... but the teleport is teleporting to near the caster, not from near the caster to somewhere else on the board, which makes it a lot more difficult to evaluate.  Honestly, if this actually allowed movement afterwards, I think this could have had some game, but since they just FAQ'd that out, I think tzeentch isn't going to be seen much.  It is one of those fiddly things that requires a good plan to pull off well... and then you get stuck in that 1 mission that prevents teleporting and all your plans fall apart.

Finally, undivided.  The problem with undivided is that you aren't getting a reliable effect - you are rolling 2d6 for a hero, or 1d6+2 for a unit, and then getting... something.  Is it good?  Who knows!  I mean, normally, I would love that +1 rend effect, but I just know I'm going to roll that when I get matched up against nighthaunt and it doesn't matter.  Or how about the 2+ spell ignore effect vs the no-caster opposing army?  YAY!  While this mark may appeal to some people because of its random effects, and the ability to build up the random effects over the course of the game can be very impactful (rend -3 chaos warriors?  Don't mind if I do), it can also not happen at all or just make no difference in the course of the game, and therefore is unreliable.

Basically, we have 3 good effects that match their god well, 1 effect of questionable utility that also still matches their god well, and undivided which is great for people who want to play slots.  I think they did a good job of designing them, and due to the banner enhancements on top of that (and the fact you can't run 2 of the same enhancement), I think many good armies will have a solid mix of marks in them.  But 3 of them are still noticeably better than the other 2, and one of those 3 can be harder to make use of as well.

[Ravinsild]

Yeah, and uh, some of us have just been Khorne fans since forever. I'll never forget the day I found World Eaters Khorne Berserkers. I had kept asking the GW manager about how I wanted an aggressive melee army, and somehow my first army ever was Grey Knights because they all had swords and pikes and spears and such, but well..they're a psychic army who can kind of fight. Then I went Space Wolves and you know, they're alright. Then finally, somehow, someway I tried World Eaters with Khorne Berserkers and it all just clicked. 

Hoped AOS had the equivalent, but Bloodbound...are a big disappointment, so I've been playing Ironjawz for that rush at 'em feeling. Now, finally, it looks like Khorne might just be as aggro in this battletome as I hoped. Shove models forward do damage blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne, notice me senpai (EotG) oop I became a daemon prince of khorne. 

[ibel]

Hej i Agree. I don't go in Khorne (i dont like him) and i think the Khorne/Bloodbound and Co Synergies will gone very fast.

I will go Heavy Choosen and there Slannesh (go fast forward, Hammer) and Nurgle (Stand and stand and Stand).

But with List u think is better:

Spoiler

Host: Everchoosen

Belakor (Bat 1)                 

Spell: Binding Damnation

Dämonenprinz  MdN    

Artefakt: The Conquert Crown

General: Not to be denied

Chaos Wizzard  MdS      (Bat 1) 

Spell:

Exalted Hero MdS           (Bat 1) 

Batteline

10 x Choosen MdS          (Bat 1) 

Ensolllerd Banner of Slaanesh

10 x Choosen MdN         (Bat 1) 

Ensolllerd Banner of Nurgle

Corvus Cabale or the Unmade oder Cypher Lords or (for 5 Points more) Marauder       (Bat 1) 

Monster

Warshrine Behemonth MdS  (Bat 1)      

Prayer: Cursed

2 Drop

1995 Punkte

 

Host: Everchoosen

Belakor                                                (Bat 1) 

Spell: Binding Damnation

Dämonenprinz  MdN    

Artefakt: The Conquert Crown

General: Not to be denied

Chaos Wizzard  MdS                      (Bat 1) 

Spell:

Chaos Wizzard  MdS                      (Bat 1) 

Spell:

Batteline

10 x Choosen MdS                          (Bat 1) 

Ensolllerd Banner of Slaanesh

10 x Choosen MdN                         (Bat 1) 

Ensolllerd Banner of Nurgle

Marauder Horseman MdN         (Bat 1) 

Monster

Mindstealer Spinx          (Bat 1) 

ChaoSigil

2 Drop

1995 Punkte

I dont know what is better, did i need the Warshrine or are 2 Sorcerer better, i it enough the 2 big Blocks of Choosen to give the 6+Ward, is the Mindstealer good enough or are another blocker Unit better... i dont know i dont know...

[Holy_Diver]

7 hours ago, readercolin said:

When looking at the various marks, Khorne is the easiest and the flashiest, which is why most people are gravitating towards it.  After all, everyone wants more attacks, especially with the unit that got the biggest glowup in this book - Chaos Knights.  To top that all off, Khorne easily has the best allies to pull from with potentially up to 3 additional units providing +1 attack aura's AND the bloodstoker for more movement (whereas nurgle provides not much, tzeentch some spell casters, and slannesh... Sigvald? some poor shooting?).  All of this combines to make them the easiest mark for people to gravitate to.  Especially when everyone who had a bunch of knights really wanted to charge with them and have something happen.

After that, nurgle is the easiest to discern the value of.  -1 to wound makes thing more tanky.  Put on 3+ save unit, laugh at opponent.  Simple enough.

After that, the next most obvious one is slaanesh for +1 to run and charge, and a CP for run and charge.  Extra mobility is always nice, but can be difficult to use well, and isn't as obvious as khorne and nurgle.  Their banner lets you combine that together with the +1 attacks on charges that Khorne gets as well for some extra fun, and they also have the warshrine prayer for 3d6 charge on top of that.

From here, we can see solid reasons to play all 3 of these marks, all for different reasons.  Heck, you might play all 3 of these marks in the same list.  None of them make the mathhammer nerds tingle more than khorne, but there is something for everyone here.

Then we get to Tzeentch.  Lets be honest here, unless you are facing tzeentch, the 6+ spell shrug is rather mediocre (and even then, 6+ is just poor), which means the utility of this is all built around how good the teleport is... but the teleport is teleporting to near the caster, not from near the caster to somewhere else on the board, which makes it a lot more difficult to evaluate.  Honestly, if this actually allowed movement afterwards, I think this could have had some game, but since they just FAQ'd that out, I think tzeentch isn't going to be seen much.  It is one of those fiddly things that requires a good plan to pull off well... and then you get stuck in that 1 mission that prevents teleporting and all your plans fall apart.

Finally, undivided.  The problem with undivided is that you aren't getting a reliable effect - you are rolling 2d6 for a hero, or 1d6+2 for a unit, and then getting... something.  Is it good?  Who knows!  I mean, normally, I would love that +1 rend effect, but I just know I'm going to roll that when I get matched up against nighthaunt and it doesn't matter.  Or how about the 2+ spell ignore effect vs the no-caster opposing army?  YAY!  While this mark may appeal to some people because of its random effects, and the ability to build up the random effects over the course of the game can be very impactful (rend -3 chaos warriors?  Don't mind if I do), it can also not happen at all or just make no difference in the course of the game, and therefore is unreliable.

Basically, we have 3 good effects that match their god well, 1 effect of questionable utility that also still matches their god well, and undivided which is great for people who want to play slots.  I think they did a good job of designing them, and due to the banner enhancements on top of that (and the fact you can't run 2 of the same enhancement), I think many good armies will have a solid mix of marks in them.  But 3 of them are still noticeably better than the other 2, and one of those 3 can be harder to make use of as well.

Good analysis, but you're missing a couple of points: 
- the undivided mark is only useful for the battle tactic "Lust for Power", feasible only with a hero (so no cultists).
- the tzeentch mark instead could have a value by inserting two wizards or a magician + a unit of expert conquerors to regain lost objectives.

As for the playtests I tried a version of host of everchosen (mainly 20 nurgle warriors + 10 khorne knights + 6 khorne ogroids) with the blue scribes allies and I must say that I liked them quite a lot, as a sort of joker capable to confuse the opponent (2+ arcane suggestion against missile units that are going to charge is pretty dangerous).

Edited November 8, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[Bayul]

Uhm, very very stupid question:

Eye of the Gods table says that on a 11-12 you can add a SLAVES TO DARKNESS DAEMON PRINCE to your army.

Doesn't Be’lakor have both of those Keywords?

[ibel]

19 minutes ago, Bayul said:

Doesn't Be’lakor have both of those Keywords?

He does. And the Undivied Keyword... but i am 100% sure that this was the rule writters mind. so ... we will see.

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Bayul said:

Uhm, very very stupid question:

Eye of the Gods table says that on a 11-12 you can add a SLAVES TO DARKNESS DAEMON PRINCE to your army.

Doesn't Be’lakor have both of those Keywords?

🤣 nice catch.

And Lord Bequise the Brutal is finally recognized by the dark powers. He ascends turning into: Be‘lakor - wait what 🤣🤣

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

2 hours ago, Bayul said:

Uhm, very very stupid question:

Eye of the Gods table says that on a 11-12 you can add a SLAVES TO DARKNESS DAEMON PRINCE to your army.

Doesn't Be’lakor have both of those Keywords?

There was a similar loophole in Tzeentch with summoning Kairos that was closed. It won't survive the FAQ.

[Bayul]

10 hours ago, readercolin said:

Basically, we have 3 good effects that match their god well, 1 effect of questionable utility that also still matches their god well, and undivided which is great for people who want to play slots.

Salty rant:

Spoiler

I am drawn to Tzeentch and Undivided for Cabalists thematically, but I can't put a list together that isn't unreliable jank. I have a Necrons and Thousand Sons Codex next to me with the same problem. Only two specific Cults / Dynasties are essential for list building and the rest isn't even mentioned anymore. Point changes and Dataslates* don't have any impact on internal balance. 

While this doesn't matter in casual games most of the time, you'll notice the difference in mirror matches with the optimal choice very quickly. If I remember correctly even S2D players played Tzeentch most of the time with the last tome and I predict a similar efffect with Nurgle or Khorne (and Host of the Everchosen)

 *Warhammer 40K's Battlescrolls

 

[Ravinsild]

2 hours ago, Bayul said:

Salty rant:

  Reveal hidden contents

I am drawn to Tzeentch and Undivided for Cabalists thematically, but I can't put a list together that isn't unreliable jank. I have a Necrons and Thousand Sons Codex next to me with the same problem. Only two specific Cults / Dynasties are essential for list building and the rest isn't even mentioned anymore. Point changes and Dataslates* don't have any impact on internal balance. 

While this doesn't matter in casual games most of the time, you'll notice the difference in mirror matches with the optimal choice very quickly. If I remember correctly even S2D players played Tzeentch most of the time with the last tome and I predict a similar efffect with Nurgle or Khorne (and Host of the Everchosen)

 *Warhammer 40K's Battlescrolls

 

Yeah I feel like a lucky winner of the balancing lottery. Last tome it was “all marauders all the time and Archaon or don’t show up” and I just wanted to use chaos warriors, knights and chosen and have a kind of themed army. I don’t want to use Archaon I don’t want to have like 3 models on the table just 30-40 models not too small not too big. Finally it seems the balance gods have blessed me and my favorite god is in style but like every other Battletome I’ve ever had the way I want to actually play is always somehow the worst.

 

”spam ArdBoyz only no Gore Gruntas no brutes.” Etc.. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I hate all the Chaos gods, including Malal, to whom my StD paintjob is dedicated.

[whispersofblood]

23 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

+1 to run and charge are pretty easy to parse, especially for a melee only footslogging unit that has easy access to run + charge and potentially a 3d6 charge.

People are funny creatures. We tend to value what the thing does more than how that thing does what it does. Getting into combat is generally more important than being better at combat, but +1 A and -1 to wound just provide more of an emotional impact than +1 to charge rolls. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

7 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Yeah I feel like a lucky winner of the balancing lottery. Last tome it was “all marauders all the time and Archaon or don’t show up” and I just wanted to use chaos warriors, knights and chosen and have a kind of themed army. I don’t want to use Archaon I don’t want to have like 3 models on the table just 30-40 models not too small not too big. Finally it seems the balance gods have blessed me and my favorite god is in style but like every other Battletome I’ve ever had the way I want to actually play is always somehow the worst.

 

”spam ArdBoyz only no Gore Gruntas no brutes.” Etc.. 

I think the gulf between different marks on the same units in this tome is gonna be waaaaaay lower than the gulf between warscrolls was last time. A ton of power is just baked into the units independent of their god choice. Sure, mirror matches might be tilted one way or another, but funnily enough, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are the best candidates for messing with Khorne, since being out-charged or charge-blocked make the mark much worse.

Edited November 9, 2022 by RocketPropelledGrenade
overly aggressive word filter

[JackStreicher]

14 hours ago, Bayul said:

Salty rant:

  Hide contents

I am drawn to Tzeentch and Undivided for Cabalists thematically, but I can't put a list together that isn't unreliable jank. I have a Necrons and Thousand Sons Codex next to me with the same problem. Only two specific Cults / Dynasties are essential for list building and the rest isn't even mentioned anymore. Point changes and Dataslates* don't have any impact on internal balance. 

While this doesn't matter in casual games most of the time, you'll notice the difference in mirror matches with the optimal choice very quickly. If I remember correctly even S2D players played Tzeentch most of the time with the last tome and I predict a similar efffect with Nurgle or Khorne (and Host of the Everchosen)

 *Warhammer 40K's Battlescrolls

 

I feel you.

Due to total war warhammer 2 I modelled Tzeentch Chaos Warrior Helmets for 3D printing and gifted the file to some people.

Turns out Tzeentch is hot trash now  (novody can stop me oaibting slightly blue armour though!  )

[ibel]

9 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

but +1 A and -1 to wound just provide more of an emotional impact than +1 to charge rolls. 

But u can geht Ran+Charge (thats 2"+1W6 or flat 6 faster than Khorne) and the +1 Attack u get with the Banner from Slaneesh.

And with all of this I AM the guy you strike first because i say when and were we fight. With this i feel Slaanesh feels better for

10 Choosen than Khorne. Jes if u play blockerUnits in front of your CW with MdK okay, but there u had to wait and just react of your enemy. 

I feel much more confidence if i am the Agressor.

Okay for Knights there is the MdK in Host:"Knights of.." + the Lord on Horse or Karadrake and than a million Yards nothing else (i think)

[Koala]

Well, Tzeentch is the most frickle god of trickery.

So his gift being mostly useless but high cornercase potential sounds about right. You can always use Warroirs/Knights in a DoT list. They lack heavy troops.

3 out of 5 marks powerful is certainly better balance than we are used to.

Now one of them will be the go-to for top lists, obviously ( my money is on nurgle with a lower chance for slaanesh). But to feel like you can basically do whatever you fancy in a friendly game and at least not be totally useless. That is a great Battletome.

[Bayul]

37 minutes ago, Koala said:

That is a great Battletome.

Nah, sorry. We've seen actually great Battletomes and Codices recently, like Nighthaunt or Genestealer Cult with good internal balance between subfactions and a good range of useable warscrolls. If you compare this battletome with older publications, then it might feel great but it has to compete with other recent books aswell for such an appraisal.

Excuse my negativity, but i decided to wait for the regular release and another FAQ before I purchase a S2D army. My hype turned to hope.

[Holy_Diver]

1 hour ago, Koala said:

That is a great Battletome.

+1 on this. 
This tome is capable of competing with any of the top tiers at the moment (I am a tournament player in my country and speak from experience). It should be studied like all things and in such a GH the solutions are never immediate.

[Virtus-XIV]

Cabalists sounds really fun. Just hurl spells everywhere. First list I’m going to try is:

Cabalists

440 warriors nurgle and banner

290 varanguard nurgle

100 splintered fang nurgle

100 splintered fang nurgle 

120 sorcerer lord nurgle, binding damnation

120 sorcerer lord tzeentch

115 chaos lord nurgle, conqueror’s crown artifact, warrior retinue, idolator lord (prayer - curse), binding damnation

240 chosen tzeentch and banner

230 chaos knights khorne

60 realmscourge rupture

60 ravenaks gnashing jaws

20 the burning head

100 exalted hero undivided, chaos conduit

1995 total

warlord battalion (splintered fangs and heroes) and the two galletian veteran battalions (varanguard and warriors in bounty hunters, chosen and knights in expert conquerors).

I just want to try the realmscourge rupture/ravenaks combo. If it doesn’t work then I can start looking into replacing things.

I’m actually not that high on knights. They’re great on the charge but if you don’t delete what you wanted then in subsequent rounds they’re very weak offensively.

I think a lot of the subfactions have play (some cultists, especially splintered fang, are quite good offensively now). Despoilers seems weak to me, held back by the Daemon Prince warscroll - it just doesn’t hit hard enough.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Virtus-XIV

[ChaosUndivided]

Its a vast improvement on the previous tome and thematically on point. I think the tzeentch mark should be 4+ and the choices would be much tougher to make. The fact that knights and warriors got the glow up most people pushed for alone almost makes this a great update. The internal balance is much better for it too.