AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Ravinsild]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

It's interesting. I for one hate Nurgle XD
 

Same. I’m going to try a few games as fully Khorne and if it really really doesn’t work I’ll cave and run the Nurgle warrior block but my how I wish I could just run mono Khorne. I don’t like Bloodbound because they don’t play aggressive enough for me. With this rework of Khorne it feels like they’re finally World Eaters lite, able to fight twice in some circumstances, able to dish out mortal wounds on the charge, then just explode into a flurry of violence. It feels very aggro where you just push models forward and roll dice instead of huddling up in a big bubble and being a defensive counter punch army which is what Bloodbound realistically is. I had 10,000 points of Bloodbound and sold it all because it’s just not Khorne. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

I was going to run my Chosen as Khorne, personally but it’s just because it’s my favorite god and I hate Slaanesh. 
 

I am also debating between a Chaos Lord on Foot in order to enable them to strike first. In a way in my mind I might build a list of something like a DP escorting 20 Warriors (msu 2 sets of 10 for more objective getting) a Karkadrak lord escorting 2 sets of 5 and then a foot lord with 1 to 2 sets of 5 Chosen in order to pull something like a pseudo-Smashing and Bashing similar to Ironjawz. 

Common mistake I keep seeing--the foot lord doesn't enable a unit to strike first like the mounted lords do. At best, he removes strike last (which is still good on Chosen and in some other circumstances, like against Sylvaneth or in the mirror).

 

 

As for my MVP units, they are a bit less reliable than some people's choices, but I think Undivided Chosen with the Dread Banner are going to be spicy. Reduces their chance of the free EotG roll being wasted, and any future ones they get by killing heroes or taking objectives are more likely to be good as well. I'd happily take any of the results of 4+ on a 1d6 EotG for Chosen, and two bites at that is much better than one.

[Bayul]

38 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I for one hate Nurgle XD

Dito, i like Tzeentch, but I haven’t discovered what could be as efficient as Khorne or Nurgle in this book yet or if it is as important as the actual Legions.

I hope there’s a place for a Lord of Change in the army, probably in Cabalists? Spell slinging Endless Spells from the backline with a Sorcerer and a Gaunt Summoner? Or yeet mounted units with Demonic Speed? Then Warp Reality them back? I am not good enough at this game to make good use of this…

[Ravinsild]

38 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Common mistake I keep seeing--the foot lord doesn't enable a unit to strike first like the mounted lords do. At best, he removes strike last (which is still good on Chosen and in some other circumstances, like against Sylvaneth or in the mirror).

 

 

As for my MVP units, they are a bit less reliable than some people's choices, but I think Undivided Chosen with the Dread Banner are going to be spicy. Reduces their chance of the free EotG roll being wasted, and any future ones they get by killing heroes or taking objectives are more likely to be good as well. I'd happily take any of the results of 4+ on a 1d6 EotG for Chosen, and two bites at that is much better than one.

Are you sure? It reads to me like he fights, and then, just like the Mounted Lord, he allows the retinue (Warrior or Chosen) to fight immediately? 

[Swooper]

19 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Are you sure? It reads to me like he fights, and then, just like the Mounted Lord, he allows the retinue (Warrior or Chosen) to fight immediately?

Yes, but the foot lord doesn't have Strike First himself so he activates in the regular part of the combat phase.

[Ravinsild]

1 minute ago, Swooper said:

Yes, but the foot lord doesn't have Strike First himself so he activates in the regular part of the combat phase.

Aaaaah I see, yes of course. That’s why I called it a pseudo-smashing and bashing, it’s not really that but it’s more like fight twice in a row (Mount lord, unit of knights), opponent swings back, Fight Lord, then fight Chosen, so it’s 4 activations to your opponents 1 I think. 

[Swooper]

1 minute ago, Ravinsild said:

Aaaaah I see, yes of course. That’s why I called it a pseudo-smashing and bashing, it’s not really that but it’s more like fight twice in a row (Mount lord, unit of knights), opponent swings back, Fight Lord, then fight Chosen, so it’s 4 activations to your opponents 1 I think. 

It's actually better than that - the opponent only gets to swing back if he has a Strike First unit. If the Mounted Lord + Knights are Striking First, that means they just charged, so it's your turn. If the opponent has no SF unit, you can do four units in a row because you get to start both the SF and regular part (and Strike Last, if applicable of course) of the combat phase.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

The issue with the Chaos Lord on foot and getting in maximum damage before your opponent can strike is that his damage per point is not especially great*, and his low mobility makes him hard to synergize with a mounted lord's charge. So frequently you are spending points on a gimmick, and would be better off saving them towards reinforcing a troop unit and just fighting with those reinforced knights or chosen when you would select the chaos lord to fight anyways. He's much more useful as a bearer for Conqueror's Crown/Arcane Tome/Cabalists subfaction that can incidentally buff combat than he is as a straight fighty piece.

If you want to use him and try and trigger the quad-fight, I hope you enjoy it on the occasions when it goes off and don't have too much frustration when it doesn't. I really do. I just don't think he's worth the effort, even as a player who really loves those goofy fun moments.

*As foot heroes go, he's actually not bad, but foot heroes are notorious for having inefficient combat profiles. I'd have to do some math to be sure, but I think he has similar damage-per-point to the Karkadrak without the mobility, extra wounds, ward that doesn't kill more efficient models to be used, or legitimate strike-first effect.

[Causalis]

Why stop at 4? If you charge with 6 mounted Lords and 6 Knights you get to activate all 12 at the "strike first" step, before your opponent can hit you back. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Incidentally, just ran the numbers on foot lord damage, and he does very comparable damage with his good loadout (Daemobound Steel and Reaperblade) per point to the Karkadrak Lord, and significantly more than the Lord on Daemonic Steed, even assuming you get the charge with the Cursed Lance. The problem is, as I noted in my last post, the other two have a ton of things going for them that aren't damage and don't require investing enhancements or taking a specific subfaction, and marks are probably a wash at best in comparison.

If you want to get value out of him beyond the occasional multi-fight, I think making him a wizard through Tome and/or Cabalists is the best bet. This actually can be quite good, because he can Draw on Power to push spells through and then shunt miscasts to his retinue, who may well have a real ward against the damage. The second best is having a retinue of Chosen, fighting with the Chosen, then follow up with Lord + Chosen's second fight, since that can negate Strike Last per the FAQ. You can, of course, do both, and that is something I am considering if I end up changing around some points.

[Ravinsild]

It’s probably not really worth mentioning or relying upon but for a mere 80 points ally you could potentially give him +3 to run and charge rolls in addition to re-rolling wound rolls. However I am unsure if there’s a way to also somehow pile on run and charge without dipping into Slaanesh which defeats the point. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

14 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

It’s probably not really worth mentioning or relying upon but for a mere 80 points ally you could potentially give him +3 to run and charge rolls in addition to re-rolling wound rolls. However I am unsure if there’s a way to also somehow pile on run and charge without dipping into Slaanesh which defeats the point. 

Also, at that point his damage per point goes way down because the cost is effectively 80 points higher (or thereabouts, presumably you can get additional use out of the allied unit, but still).

 

Speaking of 80 pt allies, I'm actually looking at Ungor Raiders for screens. They're now cheaper than Untamed Beasts for the pre-game move use, and the ranged attacks (while terrible natively) work well if you can get Curse off through an Idolator Lord. Plus, they're both fast and cheap for sitting on objectives, and theoretically knock a wound or two off something lightly armored while waiting for Curse to hit. Basically, I don't ask for much at that price, especially if the only synergies it requires to punch above its weight are things I was already taking for other reasons.

[Ravinsild]

9 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Also, at that point his damage per point goes way down because the cost is effectively 80 points higher (or thereabouts, presumably you can get additional use out of the allied unit, but still).

 

Speaking of 80 pt allies, I'm actually looking at Ungor Raiders for screens. They're now cheaper than Untamed Beasts for the pre-game move use, and the ranged attacks (while terrible natively) work well if you can get Curse off through an Idolator Lord. Plus, they're both fast and cheap for sitting on objectives, and theoretically knock a wound or two off something lightly armored while waiting for Curse to hit. Basically, I don't ask for much at that price, especially if the only synergies it requires to punch above its weight are things I was already taking for other reasons.

Well the Bloodstoker seems like he’d be good for literally any Khorne Mortal unit, Knights, Lords, Chosen, even Chaos Warriors to hoof it to an objective asap. I think he’s just a rock solid ally. Also been looking at maybe an Aspiring Deathbringer who I feel is more valuable than a Bloodsecrator because the Bloodsecrator, without careful positioning, will interfere with my chaos lord trying to do his thing (daemonic power probably). 
 

I’m trying to find ways to marry synergy with the heavy armored look. I’m trying to avoid marauders, cultists and units like that in favor of a fully heavy black plate armor fist of doom, Chaos Lords of all varieties, Chaos Warriors, Chaos Knights, Chosen and that ilk and I’d say most Khorne Mortal units fit that description as well overall. 

[Grimrock]

Got a chance to get a game in so I figured I should share my experience. I ran knights of the empty throne with bounty hunters and a warlord battalion for everything else:

Chaos Lord on Manticore            270
- General, Death Dealer trait
- Conqueror Crown
- Khorne

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak            220
- Khorne
- Arcane tome, burning blade

Chaos Sorcerer lord                120
- binding damnation
- Nurgle

Bloodstoker                        80
                                
10 Knights                        460
- Khorne
- banner 
- bounty hunter

5 Knights                        230
- Khorne

5 Knights                         230
- Khorne

Varanguard                        290
- Khorne
- ensorcelled weapons
- bounty hunter

Iron golems                        100

I was up against a Nurgle army with 4 units of blight kings, two units of plaguebearers, one unit of nurglings, bloab, festus, and a lord of afflictions with the usual kit. Very slow but very tanky and can do a ton of damage on the counter strike. Mission was 'Won't back down'. I won't do a full report but some thoughts:

- Knights of the empty throne feels amazing. I was running and charging all the time and it let me dictate my engagements. Of course this was against a footslogging nurgle list so it might be different against something faster, but I really felt in control of the game. It's cool to have a sub faction that opens up a totally different build/way to play. 
- Chaos Knights feel really amazing now. I don't love hitting on 4's, but they're super tanky and they can absolutely get the job done on the charge. Riders of Doom makes a 10 man unit work pretty much seamlessly and with a couple buffs there's almost nothing that can stop them. They absolutely felt like they should and I'm so happy they got this update. 
- Eye of the Gods was much more active this game and I got five rolls on it by turn three giving the karkadrak lord +2 rend and the manticore lord a 6+ ward, +1 rend, and a snub. Definitely an improvement from the old system. 
- It felt really nice to not have to worry about bubbles for the marks anymore. The extra attack on the charge actually made a pretty big impact throughout the game and multi profile units like the karkadrak and manticore just loved it
- I was a little worried about the manticore lord but he turned out really solid. Speed 12 with fly and run/charge gave him a huge threat range and his attack profiles are really solid. I kept him back for the first turn then on the second gave him daemonic power and used the bloodstoker to launch him at a bloab sitting 25ish inches away. He proceeded to pretty much one shot bloab, then go on to wreck the backline. Iron-Willed Overlord even came up top of 2 where it turned a redeploy of a 2 into a 6 meaning a unit of blight kings was stranded for the rest of the game. I don't know if I'd take him outside empty throne, but he definitely has a place there
- Daemonic Power is still stupid strong, but with the overall buff to the army it didn't hurt as much when I failed to cast it
- The bloodstoker is just dumb with the army. Way too strong with Knights of the Empty Throne and I'm sure he won't be in there for long. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the winter errata changes the keywords on the stoker and bloodsecrator to only affect Blades of Khorne units. Enjoy them if you have them but I wouldn't be making any purchases. 
- On that note, the army definitely felt a bit overtuned. It hits like a truck and even the basic unbuffed 5 man knights were a threat and could pick their engagements very well. I used the speed to put all the pressure on the left flank and just sort of muscled my way through all opposition while retreating from the right. It left the slower force struggling to get any favorable combats in and stranded some units that just couldn't keep up. It was a probably a really bad matchup for the Nurgle player, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few nerfs going forward
- Finally, it was so cool putting all that cavalry on the table and it's just night and day how much better this is to play compared to the last book. No worrying about finicky ranges, combos that actually work with no arbitrary restrictions, solid stats that get better with buffs instead of needing buffs to function at a basic level, army rules that were actually used... just so much better. This is a fantastic book. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Grimrock
wording/formatting

[Bayul]

How do you all evaluate the Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch? Fast Flier, does know all of the spell lore and is a reliable caster, but is very very expensive.

And... what is the point of Silvered Portal in this battletome by the way? Which TZEENTCH non-MONSTER unit does a Slaves to Darkness player want to put in reserve?

[Bayul]

4 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I’m trying to find ways to marry synergy with the heavy armored look. I’m trying to avoid marauders, cultists and units like that in favor of a fully heavy black plate armor fist of doom, Chaos Lords of all varieties, Chaos Warriors, Chaos Knights, Chosen and that ilk and I’d say most Khorne Mortal units fit that description as well overall. 

Me too, inspired by Total War: Warhammer's Tzeentch units. Battleline of bulky warriors supported by some nasty casters. I do miss some discs though: 
 

 

[Frowny]

1 hour ago, Bayul said:

Which TZEENTCH non-MONSTER unit does a Slaves to Darkness player want to put in reserve?

Deep strikes are often best just to contest objectives. Maybe just some marauder horsemen or marauders or cultists (with mark) or something. You want them midgame to take a back objective or be a deployable screen. The threat of them is as useful as their actual use since as long as they are in reserve, your enemy can't leave backfield objectives alone, so your 100pt unit pins his 100 pt unit but yours has the added advantage of then coming down midfield to take a different objective or screen something else out

[Ravinsild]

Thought experiment: Saw someone equate Chosen to Paladins, they said they are Chaos Paladins. Apparently one of the things that "allows" Paladins to be good is deep strike, to the best of my understanding. Someone posted that while Chosen might be good, they're slow and it might be a problem getting them to where they are going. 

While I know of no way to stack a +1 to charge roll with this iteration, is it plausible a Gaunt Summoner (on Disc or Otherwise) and a Tzeentch Marked Chosen unit could be deepstruck via the Silver Tower ability?

My concerns would be no way to deliver (Apparently Stormcast have a way to make the roll 7+ out of deepstrike which is more reliable) out of deepstrike, and loss of offensive power because it's been observed by some that the Tzeentch Mark is pretty weak in this book.

Still, something to think about, maybe.

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Apparently Stormcast have a way to make the roll 7+ out of deepstrike which is more reliable)

Outside if 7“ and rerolling charges. But that’s only for Annihalators + Command Ability.

all the other paladins have 4“ movement and are trash ^^

[ibel]

I must say, i am very sad about the FAQ  but very confused/amazed/suprised that they don't changed the (Autoincluded) DP with mdN ?!?!?!

[JackStreicher]

Just now, ibel said:

I must say, i am very sad about the FAQ  but very confused/amazed/suprised that they don't changed the (Autoincluded) DP with mdN ?!?!?!

Someone in the studio really loves nurgle

[ibel]

10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Someone in the studio really loves nurgle

Hej maybe.

But the Ens.Banner of Nurgle is know mhmm.. määhh. Jes 12" was to big, a very large Range. But now, just for that Unit in Melee... pfff... 6" or 3" okay but all gone.

And than the (persenall) biggest Change:

Host of Everchosen ist just okay for Chaos Warrior of 20. For Choosen it is not longer effecitv to use, for Knights there is just ONE Host... Run and Charge is too good.

mhm... the very very good feeling i had 2-3 Weeks bevor is almost gone ( and i didnt had my Box in Hands 😒 )

[Beliman]

43 minutes ago, ibel said:

Host of Everchosen ist just okay for Chaos Warrior of 20. For Choosen it is not longer effecitv to use, for Knights there is just ONE Host... Run and Charge is too good.

Are they that bad? I don't play Slaves2Darkness, but a multi-wound unit with 3+ save seems really nice for a 5+ rally. I get that they are expensive, but knights/chosen I think that they hit really hard and still can be tooled a bit with mark+banner witht the option to combo with a lot other buffs/techs (tzeentchport, run&charge, 3D6 charge, Silvertower-ambush, etc...).

 

Note: Some reviewers say that the warscrolls cards from abilities (encorcelled banners) have the new descriptions instead of the old ones (Nurgle banner). It seems that this FAQ was planned after the book was printed.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Beliman

[Rors]

In regards to the Chaos Lord in foot and his activating a unit to fight, you can give him the always strike first artifact. Chosen or warriors with ASF seems pretty scary, add in some knights with a mounted lord and you're going to make the opponent think about their charges very carefully.

[Jaskier]

52 minutes ago, Rors said:

In regards to the Chaos Lord in foot and his activating a unit to fight, you can give him the always strike first artifact. Chosen or warriors with ASF seems pretty scary, add in some knights with a mounted lord and you're going to make the opponent think about their charges very carefully.

I thought the same as you, but unfortunately the strike first artifact is only available to Daemon Princes.