Anyone actually likes skirmish?

[Moldek]

This is a bit of a recurring interest of mine. My gaming buddies are mostly relatives that I brought into warcry, so I don’t really play AoS much at the moment, but I’ve always really liked the concept of skirmish.

I’ve read all of the arguments about why it’s broken in terms of balance, and I’ve seen first hand that many of the rules don’t really work at such a small scale.

In spite of all that, I’d love to hear about anyone’s experiences with skirmish, wether it’s narrative based of just a bit of beer & bretzels fun. Do you play it, have you done any tweaks to the rules, any advice or fun stories? 

[Fairbanks]

Personally, I find Skirmish to be a tad bland without a lot of heroes or things larger than standard 1 wound troopers. Regular duder making one attack in a turn usually doesn't hit or wound, and then if I'm on the other end, almost never saves. I also prefer to have a lot of objectives/treasure out on the board, or some other neutral/aggressive creatures to contend with. Almost never want to do a 'kill the other team' scenario, as that tends to turn into a series of coin flips to see who wins.

I'm tempted to play with a Wound/Injury Table similar to what Blood Bowl uses. 'Players' get knocked down all the time, but when a knock down happens, a roll is made to see if it penetrates armor, if it does there's a roll to see if it is a Stun/KO/or Casualty. If it is a Casualty, you roll on the Casualty Table and they can take an injury.

[flemingmma]

The new skirmish in January and February's white dwarfs fixed a few things. I find it quite fun to see who can abuse the ability of each model to be a unit more. Blightkings absolutely wreck shop with their virulent discharge. 

[Moldek]

@Fairbanks good pointers. It does seem like a more fleshed out wound system could make standard dudes a tad more interesting. Also the whole treasures and creatures deal. The warcry system for beasts is quite good (you can try to activate one on a 3+, if you fail your opponent gets to play it). Now that I think about it, adopting the alternating activations could be neat too.

@flemingmma yeah embracing the brokenness might be pretty fun too! Do you use those cool cards that you posted on the narrative forum?

[flemingmma]

36 minutes ago, Moldek said:

@Fairbanks good pointers. It does seem like a more fleshed out wound system could make standard dudes a tad more interesting. Also the whole treasures and creatures deal. The warcry system for beasts is quite good (you can try to activate one on a 3+, if you fail your opponent gets to play it). Now that I think about it, adopting the alternating activations could be neat too.

@flemingmma yeah embracing the brokenness might be pretty fun too! Do you use those cool cards that you posted on the narrative forum?

Not yet, i finished them after i took a bit of a break from the gaming table and since then i've been playing d&d

For those who would like to use them however

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JgmUWQdrUAQEneqfq8yhNbQx-YAOUSbj/view?usp=sharing

[mikethefish]

I'd probably be rather play War Cry, to be honest - barring some cool narrative event/scenario that someone is running Skirmish with.

[Moldek]

38 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

I'd probably be rather play War Cry, to be honest - barring some cool narrative event/scenario that someone is running Skirmish with.

Yeah I really like warcry, but I’m interested in the ability to use all the models from AoS without having to do custom profiles or count as. If I had a gaming group that’s more into AoS I’d definitely want to play some skirmish scenarios. I do think it would take a bit of work on that side to make it interesting though...

[Beastmaster]

I don’t think Standard AoS rules, points and unit choices can work in skirmishes. The basic AoS battleline model is just too weak to accomplish anything on its own,  so they have to move together if there are any AoS-strength heroes/ monsters on the table.  If you want to use buffs, the heroes must stay by the troops. So, with limited points, you’ll end up in a single blob that sooner or later meets the enemy blob and dishes it out, regardless of terrain and scenario.

For a functioning skirmish game, I think, the disparity in strength between models and the number of buffs has to be low in order to work.

[The Cranky Dwarf]

I've played skirmish a few times. I've usually found it too unbalanced to be much fun. Ex. I had a 3 player skirmish battle and my grim wrath by himself killed both enemy warbands. Also the limited model use in the v1 kinda killed it soon after it came out in my local scene because many of our players couldn't use their favorite models. War cry Imo could totally replace skirmish with some expansions of usable models.

[Greyshadow]

Yes! It has taken me nearly twelve months but I have painted up a Cities of Sigmar war band and a table of terrain (Shattered Dominion objectives, Azyrite Ruins, an abandoned camp site, treasure chests and am almost done with the Azyrite Townscape and Ophidian Archway). Our back story is that the Necroquake has triggered a magical resonance in a ruined city in the foothills of the mountains of Maraz in Ghur. Long range scouts from the Twin Tails regiment have a patrol in that area. They are met by a Lieutenant and body guard of Greatswords sent by the Collegiate Arcane to discover more.

We plan to play through the original skirmish book campaign and have been policing ourselves to include models we think will give a good game. We had a great first game that ended in a nail bitingly close draw. We have been using skirmish as a way to learn the rules (as I am mainly a painter). Big advantage over Warcry is we can use whatever models we want and have found the double turn mechanic loads of fun.

P.S. We didn't get any blobs as mentioned by @Beastmaster in our first game. The first Battleplans have mechanics to force you to spread out.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Greyshadow

[Moldek]

@Beastmaster @The Cranky Dwarf

Yeah I’ve seen that the rules don’t really translate well, still I’m sure there’s some way to make it work, either as a more narrative project or by just playing crazy model choices instead of realistic forces.

@Greyshadow this sounds like an awesome project! I hope you’ll post some pics. I think I have a similar approach to the hobby as yours. This year I’ce created a narrative about a small force of stormcast facing a ghost insurrection to get my girlfriend into wargaming. We tried a couple of rulesets since AoS was a bit too much for her, and we’ve settled on warcry. I’m also starting a more chaos focused warcry campaign with some relatives. My warband is done and I have a lot of terrain to get to once I have finished the chaotic beasts. Can’t wait to play a fully painted game on a complete table!

I still keep an eye on skirmish, in case I can get some AoS friends. It’s definitely not a complete game but could be an interesting toolbox in my opinion...

[Kramer]

I like it but I like messing with rules. Your toolbox remark is the right one I think. It's a piece of the puzzle. But one of blue sky so you can put it in everywhere. 

I like the Kill-team rules to add something more narrative/building to it. Or maybe the Necromunda ones. But they seem so swingy. Warcry ones you're familiar with so take advantage of that. Especially  the way the campaigns work. So that you are not too reliant on attendance. 

Also curveball for the toolbox.
1. the artefact rules from Forbidden power. Relics that upgrade. How awesome is that.
2. Firestorm. Its map rules are great and they scale down. Just change the narratives and the rules a bit. I was working on a Skirmish campaign in a city. We used an old timey map of our hometown. The locations matched real life places. Based on the firestorm campaigns. Never played it though... the GHB rules kinda broke it up  😂

[Greyshadow]

10 hours ago, Moldek said:

... sounds like an awesome project! I hope you’ll post some pics.

The opening shot of the campaign. Sergeant Aulus (left) sounds a warning of ambush to Lieutenant Redgar Hull and his guard as they enter the ruined city.

Hull pushes through the ambush to run down a skeletal horseman, allowing his men to escape.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Greyshadow

[Aegisgrimm]

I've dabbled in the Skirmish 1.0 rules (plus the Forgotten Heroes fan expansion), and found that even with the changes that Skirmish 2.0 made, Hinterlands is still a superior ruleset for AoS skirmishing if you are interested in using units with AoS Warscrolls.  The new rules restrictions it puts in place (especially the one restricting a unit to 3 mortal wounds inflicted at a time, all extra MW inflicted are changed to standard saveable wounds)) stop powerful units from breaking skirmish games by killing an entire enemy force in one activation.

Or if you are already willing to play a game that does not use strict AoS rules, try One Page Rules and their not-40k and not-AoS games.  They are a completely different ruleset, but both their army-scale and skirmish-scale games have an analogue (just named differently for IP reasons) to every AoS model/unit, plus they both use the same core rules.  So while it's not a GW ruleset in anyway (which unfortunately  tends to turn lots of people off), it allows players to use every AoS model in their collection.  Plus, it's also completely free so it's easy to try out.

For instance my Skaven warband for skirmish has everything from a Grey Seer,to Clanrats, to a Stormfiend with warpfire throwers.  Jezzails, Globadiers, unit wargear options etc. 

Plus the rules go through pretty impressive playtesting for a free ruleset.  If you are willing to donate to their Patreon (I am debating on it) you also gain access to Advanced Rules and a Unit Creation ruleset.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Aegisgrimm

[Moldek]

15 hours ago, Aegisgrimm said:

I've dabbled in the Skirmish 1.0 rules (plus the Forgotten Heroes fan expansion), and found that even with the changes that Skirmish 2.0 made, Hinterlands is still a superior ruleset for AoS skirmishing if you are interested in using units with AoS Warscrolls.  The new rules restrictions it puts in place (especially the one restricting a unit to 3 mortal wounds inflicted at a time, all extra MW inflicted are changed to standard saveable wounds)) stop powerful units from breaking skirmish games by killing an entire enemy force in one activation.

Or if you are already willing to play a game that does not use strict AoS rules, try One Page Rules and their not-40k and not-AoS games.  They are a completely different ruleset, but both their army-scale and skirmish-scale games have an analogue (just named differently for IP reasons) to every AoS model/unit, plus they both use the same core rules.  So while it's not a GW ruleset in anyway (which unfortunately  tends to turn lots of people off), it allows players to use every AoS model in their collection.  Plus, it's also completely free so it's easy to try out.

For instance my Skaven warband for skirmish has everything from a Grey Seer,to Clanrats, to a Stormfiend with warpfire throwers.  Jezzails, Globadiers, unit wargear options etc. 

Plus the rules go through pretty impressive playtesting for a free ruleset.  If you are willing to donate to their Patreon (I am debating on it) you also gain access to Advanced Rules and a Unit Creation ruleset.

 

Hinterlands is definitely something I want to try at some point. I have actually played a bit with the one page rules system; even came up with a system of special action cards (kind of like the warcry abilities) to make it more cinematic. I used it to play with my girlfriend but we’ve switched focus to warcry for now. It’s a pretty good system, probably better than AoS for people who are not already into the GW mindset.

[WarbossKurgan]

 

 

I love Skirmish for narrative campaigning!

My little group of players have so far played 4 AoS Skirmish campaigns. Only the last one (Spellbreakers) was played using AoS 2nd edition rules and the White Dwarf Skirmish update.

I think I prefer the updated rules but the most enjoyable campaign for me was the one with the Malign Portents additions - the Portent Cards added an extra layer of spice that made the entire campaign spark for me. I do like the updated rules (especially dropping Renown in favour of standard AoS matched play points, and allowing virtually any model to be used).

Our next Harrowmark campaign is planned with Warcry rules though (with a few mods) as we have all been thoroughly bewitched by them! I just pray that the Tome of Champions is everything I'm hoping for!

[Malios]

Age of Sigmar Skirmish definitely has its place.

Up front: A "matched play experience" is not AoS Skirmish's strong suit and you're wasting your time if you're playing Skirmish to provide that. If you want a skirmish sized matched play game, then look to Warcry and Warhammer Underworlds to provide it for you.

The strong elements of Age of Sigmar Skirmish are:

• A crawl + walk + run approach for new players
• Affordable
• A hobbyist converter's paradise, and
• Narrative, narrative, narrative!

Skirmish is great for a crawl + walk + run approach for new players: it breaks Age of Sigmar down to the absolute fundamentals. There's no allegiance abilities, no mortal realms rules, no battalions, no endless spells, no resurrection mechanics, there often isn't large models with scaling abilities as they take wounds... basically anything that can confuse or overwhelm a new player is not present. You can use it as a platform to teach people the absolute fundamentals like moving, shooting, combat, as well as simple spells and abilities in the Hero phase. You can then build upon that foundation by expanding the scale from individuals to small squads, then to allegiance abilities until you end up at the 2000+ points level and beyond with all the extras. 

Skirmish is also highly affordable compared to its larger brother: I don't need to delve too deeply into this topic. Tabletop wargaming isn't a cheap hobby, and a cost-affordable approach is both appealing and in high demand.

Because of the low model count, Skirmish presents a means for hobbyists to go nuts with injecting character into their miniatures.  Each individual is a hero or a villain in the making (as much as the game may make you think otherwise) so conversions, battle trophies and themed ideas are the lifeblood of Skirmish. The more converted, the better! See AoS28, Hinterlands and Blanchitsu for inspiration for what's possible. And finally,

Its all about the narrative. Skirmish comes down to individual stat lines rather then synergies formed by allegiance abilities and expensive heroes like regular AoS, and quite frankly some models just have better statlines then others. A nighthaunt warband in skirmish is particularly hard to beat for example because they all have solid statlines, ignore AP modifiers and ignore most terrain. This makes Skirmish completely broken, with no degree of fairness to it: some models are just flat out better then others. The way you counteract this is to inject lots of narrative into the games you play to make it engaging as well as challenging. The opponent with the nighthaunt may be facing more challenging objectives, or the other player may have more miniatures at his disposal to even the odds. You're only limited by your imagination in this respect: something that seems to be declining in the modern tabletop wargamer. Its a fair statement to say that the newer and upcoming generations of wargamers are growingly dependent on the need for strict left and right of arcs and structure to how they play, which is why matched play is so dominant. The tabletop RPG market has gone through similar developmental changes to match the generational trend with simpler rulesets and more focus on "out of the box" adventures.

With all of that said, AoS Skirmish has its place just as the more "competitive" Warhammer Underworlds and Warcry have their place. Some tips to get the most out of Aos Skirmish:

• Convert your miniatures. Rather then just slapping them together, take your time in developing character into each individual miniature. Its as much a hobby project in itself as actually gaming with them.
• Keep an open mind: to get the most out of AoS Skirmish, you need to throw any concept of "even footing" or "matched play" out of the window. Be creative and find your own ways to find balance through the battleplans you play.
• Communicate: because it is so broken, communication with the other player across the table is vital. Come to agreements, be prepared to make up stuff as you go along and be flexible. The less you chase the win and the more you focus on the in between, the better the experience in AoS Skirmish.
• Use the terrain rules: it can make all the difference.
• Look at AoS28 or Hinterlands as an alternative: they're not official, but alot of effort went into them. Consider them, take ideas from them. And finally,
• Make up your own rules and ideas. Its in the White Dwarf updates and is a vital component of Skirmish. Alot is missing compared to regular AoS, so fill in the gaps!

Edited November 28, 2019 by Malios
typos

[Beastmaster]

Nice examples and well argued. Only thing I ask myself now is:

Why not just play Mordheim?

It is made for exactly that format, and has lots of more options, in terms of customization opportunities, skirmishy movement and interaction possibilities (climb, jump, hide etc), character development options...

It’s just objectively the better skirmish game. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Beastmaster

[WarbossKurgan]

I love Mordheim. I really, really, do, but the rules are clunky, dated and top-heavy. The campaign system is long winded and takes almost as much time as actual games. The setting is wonderful and rich and detailed but it is also limited. It is "historical" world-that-was and not the Mortal Realms. The range of gangs available is limited and most of the unofficial warbands are unbalanced in some way. Mordheim will always have a place in my heart, but it is nostalgia not actual gameplay enjoyment it gives me. Mordheim is not the game I want to play today.

I want to explore the Mortal Realms and join in with the unfolding story lines. I want to use any model in my collection, including monsters and other weirdness.

AoS Skirmish, for me, is the better choice as it has has met my needs, so Mordheim is not the better game in my view. Warcry might replace it, but I am withholding that decision until I have played through our next campaign, and we see what the Tome of Champions includes.

 

And @Malios is dead right with his observations.

Edited November 28, 2019 by WarbossKurgan

[Malios]

7 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

Nice examples and well argued. Only thing I ask myself now is:

Why not just play Mordheim?

It is made for exactly that format, and has lots of more options, in terms of customization opportunities, skirmishy movement and interaction possibilities (climb, jump, hide etc), character development options...

It’s just objectively the better skirmish game. 

You do raise a valid question: if Mordheim is what you're after, then Mordheim is what you're after. However I'm mostly reiterating what WarbossKurgan said above.

I've nothing against Mordheim: it was a cool setting and for its time it was an ambitious game. Had GW continued to officially develop it, it could have been great. The topic of Mordheim fills me with nostalgia.

But, it was also a game of its era that had its own fair share of troubles and problems:

• Alot of book keeping
• Too many obscure or contradicting rules
• Its hard to determine what was official and whats not these days
• You quickly discover there's no point equipping armour, or shields, because there's so many ways to negate armour saves. It was a waste of gp cost.
• Similar to the above, all of your warband members end up taking ranged weapons by the end of it
• Dwarf and High Elf warbands were game shatteringly broken.

Alot of time wasting to be frank. As a system, the game mechanics of Mordheim haven't aged as gracefully as we're led to believe either. Not to mention getting your hands on suitable miniatures and parts for the mordheim specific bands these days: not impossible, nor is it impossible to convert them with modern kits, but it will be pricey.

In its own way, AoS Skirmish has more scope and variety. Individual models may not have as much choice for customisation, but your scope of models to choose from is the entire grand alliance. And hey, if you want the narrative campaign elements that Mordheim had, develop them to suit your needs.

Alternatively, look at the Hinterlands rules.

[Edit] if you're feeling brave, you can try and make your own version of Mordheim using AoS skirmish. Some custom warscrolls and such. Could be interesting: I'd give it a go if it was polished and effort went into it like with Hinterlands.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Malios

[Moldek]

@WarbossKurgan I’m well aware of your campaigns and they inspire me a lot! Your kind of campaigning is exactly what I’m into, and one of the reasons I stayed interested in skirmish. I’ll keep an eye out for what you do with warcry, very interested!

@Malios you’re absolutely right that mordheim has a lot of problems. Honestly I’ve always loved the after battle sequence more than the actual battle itself haha. I would still play it given the chance, but more as an excuse to use cool scenery and see what the randomness brings

@Thomas Lyons and @Vincent Venturella wrote a mordheim ruleset for aos 1 a couple of years ago, I haven’t given it a good read but it looks interesting too : https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2wtslxi5wm65li8/AAB6kZliBHc-OiuzxsAyoc3sa?dl=0

[Aegisgrimm]

All I know is that the rules limitations that Hinterlands puts into place are HUGE considering mortal wounds.  Otherwise many characters or special abilities are about as fun in Skirmish as repeated groin kicks in how badly they break the game.  It also adds many rules for campaign warband growth/injuries that I consider absolute necessities when doing skirmish campaigns.

I am as big a fan of Mordheim as the next (old) guy, but both that and Warcry are extremely limited in the selection of warbands that are appropriate for either game.  Whereas Age of Fantasy Skirmish and Age of Sigmar Skirmish (either through Hinterlands or even just with the 1.0 rules and the Forgotten Heroes fan supplement) use nearly the entire selection of Age of Sigmar models a player might have.  Either game is kind of like back in the days of Warhammer: Skirmish, where every WHFB faction could be fielded.

Hell, for that matter Age of Fantasy even just got updated with rules to use all the Warcry warbands, so there's no reason to play Warcry unless you are in love with the rules (they're not for me).

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Aegisgrimm

[chord]

I really enjoy skirmish a lot.  As mentioned above , DO NOT play it as a matched play experience it will be terrible.  If you do play it in a matched play type environment, make sure the people you are all about everyone having a good time vs winning.  There are just some models which are overpowered in Skirmish.

 

Skirmish can be so much fun with the right people.

[Aegisgrimm]

Definitely.  It's a gut reaction to immediately apply Matched Play mentalities and mechanics to any GW game, but Skirmish is definitely not one of them.  Warcry, maybe, but not 1.0 or 2.0 Skirmish.  There are certain units/characters- that even though they are mechanically possible to take-are not appropriate in any way because they will mulch enemies with zero effort in a skirmish setting.  The kind where you have to wonder why rolling dice is even worth the effort, because they are meant to be attacking whole units, not lone no-name defenders.

(Like a Knight Incantor in Skirmish games without the "Rules of Three" from Hinterlands.  Spirit Flasks causing automatic 1-3 Mortal wounds applied to any unit within 3" at the start of the Combat Phase, and a spell giving a Mortal Wound to every enemy unit (which in Skirmish make it every single enemy MODEL) within 18"......that's how one model kills whole warbands in one or two turns.)

It's things like that which require the sensibilities of two players who are there to have a good time together.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Aegisgrimm

[NinthMusketeer]

The Hinterlands rules, which were so well done they got their creator a job at GW, are still out there. Whatever GW publishes needs to be comparable before I stop recommending people to play those instead.