Ogregut Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) The only new piece of infomation given today regarding legacy list is theh won't be legal in GW official events. Nothing else is new info as they've stated it long ago. Edited January 6 by Ogregut Spelling 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taerg Ad Ywons Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Today reminds me of the time that guy set fire to his Dark Elves army. At least the base packs come in 100s for the bulk rebasing, and 20 for most other common ones. I'm torn on rebasing, but well, I'll see whether or not I can get adapter trays. As for non-supported armies, I can understand the frustration (I could easily port over 2k of my mawtribes and still have more than enough for AoS) but I think that in time, they'll get some love. After all, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, and Skaven have all had a stake in Lustria at some point in time (Lizardmen's stake in Lustria being really really long). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: I think the problem with TOW is that many people didn't follow the project until very recently and most of the things are complaining about were mentioned in those early days warcom posts. Like how a YouTuber was complaining about metal models and how they moved from resing to metal recently when ages ago warcom gave us an article where they mentioned we would have metal minis as well. Or the factions topic. It is not something recent. thats wrong,i have been following tow since the first day and they NEVER said that the pdf armys were going to be ignored and let die. they said that at the launch they cant support every army and so half gonna only get pdf rules,that meaning that with time they gonna come back to those pdf armys,they could have said that they wont support these half armys and not said that they cant support them at the launch that meaning diferent show me where gw have said in those 4 yeara since tow started that the pdf armys were to be umplayables? Edited January 6 by Doko 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taerg Ad Ywons Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 The whole point of PDF armies was so that they are playable. It might be jank, it might be sucky, but they at least gave rules. GW could've not done that. Tournament play isn't the only way to play. I get it, it sucks, but some rules are better than no rules. I think cooler heads need to prevail here, given how much GW has stressed that the non-supported factions weren't going to be supported. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) Yeah, looks to me that people are just willfully not listening to or accepting information that has been clear as day to anybody paying attention for several years now. They announced the factions that were going to be supported. They stated clearly that there will be PDFs to get people by if they want to use older collections, but they are not part of what they are planning with ToW. Yet people are still sitting with their fingers in their ears "but they will get to them eventually, right? Right?" No. Wrong. ToW and AoS are two different systems, from two different studios, with two different sets of factions and different models. Vampire Counts are not in ToW because they step directly on the feet of the AoS Death factions. Lizardmen are not in ToW because they step directly on the feet of the AoS Seraphon faction. Skaven are not in ToW because it is clear that Skaven are about to get a huge AoS faction overhaul and they don't want ToW Skaven to step directly on the feet of the AoS Skaven faction. Dark Elves are not in ToW as it seems like they would directly step on the feet of a planned AoS faction incorporating the DE aesthetic and thematics (Shadow Elves) Ogre Kingdoms are not in ToW because again, they would step directly on the feet of a planned OK range refresh of AoS. Chaos Dwarfs are not in ToW because it is likey they are going to show up in AoS and them to step on the toes of that planned faction. Daemons are not in ToW because they would step on the toes of the demonic AoS factions. Beastmen are in ToW because it is clear (at least it is to me) that the Beast range as is will not stand on the feet of what is planned for Beasts in AoS (With either removal of the faction as is or a complete aesthetic and thematic overhaul) It's that simple. The 9 core announced factions for ToW are there because they don't step on AoS faction feet. The Legacy factions are there because they do. You might not agree with it, you might not like it, but that is the reality and what is going to be the case for at least several more years to come. So what does that mean for players of the game.... erm... literally nothing. If you want to have a Vampire Counts army, you can buy AoS models and build yourself a Vampire Count army. Same with lizardmen, or Ogres. They just won't supported via Arcane Journals or at Official Warhammer tournaments. That's it. What I find more exciting about this approach, is that if ToW is successful through the launch of it's 9 core factions, it has tonnes of design space to explore factions that do not step on the toes of AoS factions. Kislev, Grand Cathy, Nippon, Araby, Moot, etc... Edited January 6 by Hollow 3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Taerg Ad Ywons said: given how much GW has stressed that the non-supported factions weren't going to be supported proof of that before today? also i disagree,i spent 300€ in some wytch elfs,cauldron of blood etc to add to my cities of sigmar dark elfs and play to tow because gw said that dark elfs were getting pdf rules to can play. of they had said THIS POST OF TODAY THAT DARK ELFS WERE GETTING UMPLAYABLES, then i wouldnt have bougth the wyches and i would have been happy with my dark elfs in cities. some of people here continue saying that gw said allready this when is FALSE. show proof of this because its wrong,gw only said that they cant support the full armys at launch and so half armys were getting pdf...........and nothing more. as this means that these armys are being deleted as they have said today? its easy: -they said they cant support these armys at launch=with time they gonna support them -they could have said we cant support these armys as they did today= these armys are umplayables and gonna be deleted. see? this is diferent Edited January 6 by Doko 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Hollow said: It's that simple. The 9 core announced factions for ToW are there because they don't step on AoS faction feet. The Legacy factions are there because they do beastmen(full range in aos is playable im tow),warriors of caos(almost entire range is playable in tow the same that vampires) and dwarfs(entire aos disposesed is playable im tow) dissagree with you and wood elfs are in same situation than dark elfs(silvaneths+kurnothis and malerion) Edited January 6 by Doko 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 5 minutes ago, Doko said: beastmen(full range in aos is playable im tow),warriors of caos(almost entire range is playable in tow the same that vampires) and dwarfs(entire aos disposesed is playable im tow) dissagree with you and wood elfs are in same situation than dark elfs(kurnothis and malerion) You aren't taking in the information being presented to you. ToW is not out yet. This will not happen in 1 day, but I bet you by the end of the year and with the launch of AoS 4 that the distinction will be very clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taerg Ad Ywons Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Doko, it reads as if you're arguing in bad faith. I don't know if that's your intention, but maybe step back a bit/reword things? It comes across as raging and less of a civil discussion. So Dark Elves aren't supported. Proxy them as High Elves then, if the pdf rules aren't to your taste. Malekith is, after all, the True Phoenix King. If you went out and bought stuff without having anything solid to go on, that's on you. We have known from the horse's mouth since May 2023 what factions are going to be supported. That's around 7-8 months. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/ They have also, at nauseam and ad infinitum repeated about scale, base size, legality of play regarding bases, and so on. Since 2021. Even in April of 2023, they stated that movement trays would be a thing. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/ 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, Taerg Ad Ywons said: Doko, it reads as if you're arguing in bad faith. I don't know if that's your intention, but maybe step back a bit/reword things? It comes across as raging and less of a civil discussion. So Dark Elves aren't supported. Proxy them as High Elves then, if the pdf rules aren't to your taste. Malekith is, after all, the True Phoenix King. If you went out and bought stuff without having anything solid to go on, that's on you. We have known from the horse's mouth since May 2023 what factions are going to be supported. That's around 7-8 months. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/ They have also, at nauseam and ad infinitum repeated about scale, base size, legality of play regarding bases, and so on. Since 2021. Even in April of 2023, they stated that movement trays would be a thing. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/ so they said this in your link: These legacy faction army lists will be made available for free as pdfs as a service to fans who have these classic armies on their shelf, so they can still bring them to battle for old times sake where here they said that we wont can play with them?because i read we can play them but today article said: though please note that they won’t be considered legal for tournaments, and won’t receive ongoing support. i havent have bad faith but i think im blind or these two phrases meaning the oposite,first say you can play and second say you cant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taerg Ad Ywons Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 It means, quite clearly, that you can use these armies in any form of play barring official tournaments. That's the bad faith issue I have. You can use them at the LGS, you can use them in the garage vs your mates. You cannot, however, take them to NOVA/any official tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) as means quite clearly that we cant use them in tournaments? i see in the post of today bery clearly that,but not in the old post. i see that they omited this information CLEARLY to only gain money selling these armys and then today 10 hours before launch at the last moment is when announce this that had to be said 4 years ago edit:yes im salty because i see clearly that gw only omited this information to get extra money and just released this info in last second and not 4 years ago. some of you read betwen lanes that they said it allready but the truth is that they never said nothing untill today. last post because i have said my point allready. Edited January 6 by Doko 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luperci Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 This reminds me of the discussion around previous legends additions in 40k and aos, it sucks that certain factions won't receive as much love but they'll still be playable. Outside of tournaments if people are not letting you play legends then that's a problem with your gaming group, I'd go as far to say that most people I've encountered in the hobby are happy to play with homebrew/3rd party rules additions too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 42 minutes ago, Doko said: beastmen(full range in aos is playable im tow),warriors of caos(almost entire range is playable in tow the same that vampires) and dwarfs(entire aos disposesed is playable im tow) dissagree with you and wood elfs are in same situation than dark elfs(silvaneths+kurnothis and malerion) ToW on release will have two officially supported model lines, Tomb Kings and Bretonnians. The rest will be clearly defined as and when they are released. I may be wrong, but I would bet my bottom dollar that there will be 0 "official" cross-system model support between ToW and AoS. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Lots of pretty heated discussion right now which is understandable but a little perspective is needed. Here's my take if anyone's interested. When TOW was first announced, I was a bit annoyed. I thought it was way too early, especially with 3rd edition of AoS coming soon. I really do think it had an impact on the sales. All that said I got over it pretty quickly. I realised that there are lots of people who are not just bitter but genuinely miss a game they used to love. Seeing some of the new minis made realise that there could be some cool opportunities to add some things into my cities army or into warcry. My worry is that some members in the core study had a slightly more extreme reaction than I did and still haven't got over it. They should be encouraging cross compatibility not forbidding it. As a miniature company they would surely sell more models if people thought they could be used in both games. Some factions need to be differentiated like empire Vs cities but some really don't. Deamons already do triple duty in AoS, 40k and Horus Heresy. Keeping them out of ToW makes absolutely no sense. On the flip side if they do drop AOS BoC in favour of TOW, they be doing one of the things I was most worried about, namely hurting AoS in favour of TOW. There's no need to do this. They could absolutely keep BoC as completely the same faction in both settings without hurting either. As for the pdf situation, the messaging is really bad. They are a pretty small team who are currently supporting 6 games so it's understandable that they would want to limit the number of factions that receive active development, but cutting the other factions out of tournaments is completely unnecessary. Although GW said initially that extra factions would be getting pdfs, there was definitely no indication that they would be so completely cut off from the main game. So long as they make sure that the pdf factions are not too powerful, they should allow them in tournaments. If GW follow the normal path the pdf factions will gradually fall behind the power curve over time. There's nothing wrong with this. People play blood bowl with teams they know are rubbish just because they love them. Fortunately independent tournaments will probably just ignore these restrictions. People were playing Tomb Kings and Bretonnia for years in AoS. If the current game is a success, there will presumably be a second edition at some point. The current language is saying that the likes of Skaven will never be a part of the game. That does not inspire confidence in the future of the game. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarakUrbaz Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) Now for a post that isn't about the Legacy factions. Pre-orders are up in my country, and looking at the Core Rulebook we can see the table of contents. Now, look at the fluff section, because it seems to be mostly divided into parts based on factions. Quote *The Coming of Sigmar *The Land of Chivalry *Southern Kingdoms *The Enchanted Wood *Lords of Ulthuan *The Ancestor Gods *A Green Menace *Tomb Kings of Khemri *The Lost & the Damned *The Beasts of The Forest *The Wolves of the Sea *Land of Ice & Snow *Ruled by Dragons Most of these just obviously refer to the factions being supported at launch. Land of Ice & Snow and Ruled by Dragons are obvious references to Kislev and Cathay, but we can already assume they're coming at some point given the concept art we've seen of them. Southern Kingdoms is kind of unexpected, but given how Tilea and Estalia are blank on the map its likely just referring to the Border Princes, who we already know will be represented by things like the Exile Knight army list and presumably other variant armies for human factions. The thing that really stands out to me is The Wolves of the Sea. I can only assume that's referring to the Norscans, for they're the only seagoing race that would really lean into a wolf theme. Are there plans to make a Norscan faction seperate from Warriors of Chaos like the Total War games? Edited January 6 by BarakUrbaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chikout said: If the current game is a success, there will presumably be a second edition at some point. The current language is saying that the likes of Skaven will never be a part of the game. That does not inspire confidence in the future of the game. Yeah gws words, where picked poorly. something I also noticed they mentioned was how these legacy armies are a good way to start the edition, but if somebody wants to stay in that system for the long term period, they’d have to change their army. that isn’t inspiring either and personally, I will ignore it. after all nobody can tell me which army I have to play to be a long term tow player. and as for tournaments, well gw did mention they won’t be tournament legal in total…. Personally that’s something they can’t really decide for every tournament or event that will be organized around the world. I mean just look at the horus heresy events. faction like the ruin storm daemons or imperial militia are also legend and officially not meant for tournament play, and yet I haven’t heard of any non gw hereys events that didn’t allow these armies to be used 1 hour ago, Hollow said: ToW on release will have two officially supported model lines, Tomb Kings and Bretonnians. The rest will be clearly defined as and when they are released. I may be wrong, but I would bet my bottom dollar that there will be 0 "official" cross-system model support between ToW and AoS. Yeah well that’s what gw wants to tell you. but man look at all those warhammer army project players. A good amount have been using those new seraphons or chaos warriors for that system since release. I doubt that a few words will stop anybody from using new models in tow. Edited January 6 by Skreech Verminking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogregut Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 hours ago, Doko said: as means quite clearly that we cant use them in tournaments? i see in the post of today bery clearly that,but not in the old post. i see that they omited this information CLEARLY to only gain money selling these armys and then today 10 hours before launch at the last moment is when announce this that had to be said 4 years ago edit:yes im salty because i see clearly that gw only omited this information to get extra money and just released this info in last second and not 4 years ago. some of you read betwen lanes that they said it allready but the truth is that they never said nothing untill today. last post because i have said my point allready. The legacy lists won't be legal in GW run events. It's up to 3rd party event organisers if legacy lists can be used or not. Looking at FB groups here in the UK, the general consensus is legacy lists can be used in their upcoming events (of which quite a few are being planned, I happy to see). So unless you only play at GW run tournaments legacy lists are not unplayable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Are people really caring about using a very limited range of factions in a very niche within a niche hobby for the possibility of actual tournaments? With only 9 factions I cant see tournament ever being a thing. All this talk about Legends is nothing new. Stuff gets dropped and support stopped quite frequently lately. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShark Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 11 hours ago, JackStreicher said: Agreed. Some plain honesty would go a long way Hey guys, to reduce bloat we decided to divide faction into good and evil. Also at this point (and for the next few years) we plan to ONLY support these nine factions „quality over quantity“ Etc. I mean, that's basically exactly what they've said. They're been pretty plain about it. They've said they only have resources to focus on so many armies at a time, so for now they've settled on these 9 to be the focus. Other armies will be playable, but won't be getting support for now. They've been very clear. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShark Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 11 hours ago, Garrac said: Well, seems like my Fantasy range of skavens, from the still 98% Fantasy range of skavens, wont be able to be played on the new Fantasy game, and that GW wants me to instead use my skavens to play Age of Sigmar, a not-Fantasy game, with my 98% Fantasy range of skavens GW, sometimes you make it so hard... But you can play them? They'll have official rules for TOW. So what is the actual problem? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShark Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 7 hours ago, Kitsumy said: i dont get it. it is like if GW would want to kill oldworld even before his launch. if legacy armyes really dont get anything, no rules, no support, no lore, im starting to think they wont even have points, they will be as well as deleted. and that will kill the game 100% , absolutly any comunity group actually playing any edittion of fantasy will come over to tow wen they see half of theyr players wont be able to play unless they buy a new army. and they was going to be the mayor part of tow playerbase. and new players will be rare since it will be a game with too low factions there, and really old sculps, with metal and resin. i was sooo hypee for being able to play fantasy finally with my new lizardmens sculp.... and like always gw did his typical ****** move, dropping the bomb only some hours before the release of the game, because they havent have 5 years to say upfront that half of the armyes will be dead and unplayable in the game. so none would buy new minis in order to be ready for the launch. All armies will have rules and points. They've stated this so many times. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShark Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 6 hours ago, Doko said: yes i cant believe how dirty have been this move by gw. they have had 5 years to let us know that the half of the armys gonna be umplayables,but no........they waited untill the last moment(the day before of launch) to say us this. so they can sell those unsuported armys for 5 years to people like me that bougth dark elfs to play them in tow and now is wasted money because we cant use them. was so hard tell us this 5 or 1 year ago and not wait untill the last second to get max money? Well, good news. Instead of throwing a fit and making stuff up you CAN actually use your Dark Elf army in TOW. They will be completely playable. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taerg Ad Ywons Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 10 minutes ago, GhostShark said: Well, good news. Instead of throwing a fit and making stuff up you CAN actually use your Dark Elf army in TOW. They will be completely playable. Literally what I was saying, but you'd think it's time to set fire to our collections again given some of the reactions here... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollow Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said: Yeah well that’s what gw wants to tell you. but man look at all those warhammer army project players. A good amount have been using those new seraphons or chaos warriors for that system since release. I doubt that a few words will stop anybody from using new models in tow. Yeah, I know, it's why I explicitly said in my post, that If you want to play Vampire Counts, Or Lizardmen or Ogres, there is literally nothing stopping you from buying the AoS models and using them for ToW. Do people need to be told by GW that they can do whatever they want with the models that they buy? Officially GW is clearly making it so there is no "official" cross-system support for whatever reasons. So? Just do as you please and use the rules they are providing from near day one of ToW and the models that are already for sale. I'd bet 99% of the people losing their minds over this have never even been to an Official GW tournament. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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