Warhammer - The Old World

[Twisted Firaun]

11 hours ago, cyrus said:

In the latest video youtuber rumors monger Valrak says the old world launch box Bretonnia vs Tomb kings is coming at the end of year ( November/December)

Early 2024 they will start to release army books/index 

I'm fairly certain I floated this rumor back in March, but from Great Book of Grudges instead.... Does Valrak give any hints about what's going to be included in the box? MY money is on the new Tomb King, a Liche Priest, and some tomb guard since that's what has been previewed for LONG LOST NEHEKHARA!!!! 

[RyantheFett]

43 minutes ago, Twisted Firaun said:

I'm fairly certain I floated this rumor back in March, but from Great Book of Grudges instead.... Does Valrak give any hints about what's going to be included in the box? MY money is on the new Tomb King, a Liche Priest, and some tomb guard since that's what has been previewed for LONG LOST NEHEKHARA!!!! 

The closest we got to what would be in the box was The Honest Wargamer joking that it would be only the two foot heroes and the rest being old stuff. He seemed to know, but I have not gone thought his other podcast to see if he went into more details.

Edited June 20, 2023 by RyantheFett

[Clan's Cynic]

GW/FW have never put resin stuff in boxsets, so fair to assume it was just a joke. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Clan's Cynic said:

GW/FW have never put resin stuff in boxsets, so fair to assume it was just a joke. 

I distinctly remember having to buy a separate resin/metal Tomb King and Liche Priest to make my old Tomb Kings starter box legally playable, though. So yeah, true. On technicality.

I find it strange that they showed those two resin guys first if they have no intention of putting them in the starter box, though. Maybe the starter will have other character models in plastic, but in that case, why not just reveal those first?

[cyrus]

 So those are some highlights from Hastings on war of sigmar blog on the preview online day ( 1st of July):

.... The actual game becoming some sort of semi inclusive episodic narrative event....

My understanding is the focus and timeline will move with each episodic narrative release

Yea, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but a large part of this project will be resin.

From what I hear there's not much in the way of "new" plastic kits, not much at all

I'm hearing things surrounding different "issues" from proposed price points to actual ruleset.

There's quite a bit more news, but I'm not inclined to post more yet. Sadly, it's not sounding great by any stretch of the imagination.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I don't know how everyone else is perceiving the state of online discussion on the topic, but hype level for TOW seem to be pretty low. The most common positive comment I see is "It will be nice to have old sculpts available again." I feel like targeting the game at established players might have been a mistake. On the negative side, I see a lot of hyperbole about how GW is deliberately setting the game up to fail. Also, weirdly, the belief that TOW will replace AoS still crops up every now and then. Overall, hype could definitely be higher.

Then again, it seems to me that TOW is currently a vehicle to extend the life cycle of existing plastic kits more than anything else. At least that is the impression I get from GW's selection of supported factions. Generally (with some exceptions), factions that had their model lines discontinued or will have them discontinued soon are core factions. First and foremost Tomb Kings and Brettonia, but also High Elves, Gitmob and if the rumours about the new Cities tome are true Empire and Wood Elves soon. Factions with up-to-date model lines are generally rules-only for now, like Lizardmen, Dark Elves and Vampire counts.

[Beliman]

24 minutes ago, cyrus said:

My understanding is the focus and timeline will move with each episodic narrative release

That sounds good.

The other rumors seems to be exactly as I thought: a few (or none) plastic units for each Core army, a few resin heroes and a lot of old models. Everything else is a bonus, so, not a big deal for me.

[Hollow]

As a ToW fan, the way in which Gw has marketed the product has been the single biggest reason for my lack of excitement. It has even got to the point that I'm not sure I'll even get an army. 

[cyrus]

And this is from Reddit 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 minutes ago, cyrus said:

And this is from Reddit 

 

I'd just expect the third helmet to be a variant build on one of the two already revealed models, to be honest.

[Jator]

54 minutes ago, Hollow said:

As a ToW fan, the way in which Gw has marketed the product has been the single biggest reason for my lack of excitement. It has even got to the point that I'm not sure I'll even get an army. 

Yeah, they seem determined to bludgeoning any excitement for the game.

 Take the lattest preview, for example: We all know there's little to expect in terms of new miniatures. I think most of us accepted that. But still, there's this preconceived notion that a Warhammer Preview is going to show cool things.

What did TOW get?: A bretonnian banner. In resin. A model that would have been yawn inducing even if it was in plastic and released during fantasy peak of popularity. Seroously, I don't think they have released a miniature so dull in at least a decade.
Like, they could have at least shown a Special Character? The Bretonnian king?. Heck, even a frigging banner of any other faction but Brets or Khemri would have been more exciting and generated more discussion, something they really failing at.


I still think TOW might be a good thing in spite of GW. A common ruleset to agree with and more accessible miniatures it's still an improvement right?. But damn, they really doing the minimum possible.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Jator

[GhostShark]

I mean, we're probably still half a year away from release, right? At least? I feel like its way to early for them to be showing us much at all. You all are talking about the hype dying down, but I feel like we aren't even at the point where the hype should have started yet.

Or to put it another way, I feel like its too soon to be disappointed that we haven't seen more for a release thats probably still 5-6 months (or more) away.

Edited July 5, 2023 by GhostShark

[novakai]

12 hours ago, GhostShark said:

I mean, we're probably still half a year away from release, right? At least? I feel like its way to early for them to be showing us much at all. You all are talking about the hype dying down, but I feel like we aren't even at the point where the hype should have started yet.

Or to put it another way, I feel like its too soon to be disappointed that we haven't seen more for a release thats probably still 5-6 months (or more) away.

it probably not releasing in December though given that tends to be a dead month for new releases and GW goes on holiday for the most part until Jamuary. then again if AoS 4.0 is releasing in Summer 2024 (and nothing indicates it is not) then this game is either releasing at an awkward time or it is held out further into 2024 

[cyrus]

2 hours ago, novakai said:

it probably not releasing in December though given that tends to be a dead month for new releases and GW goes on holiday for the most part until Jamuary. then again if AoS 4.0 is releasing in Summer 2024 (and nothing indicates it is not) then this game is either releasing at an awkward time or it is held out further into 2024 

A couple weeks ago Valrak said launch box Bretonnia vs Tomb kings is coming at the end of the year  ( November/December)

Last year battle for osgiliath box was released in December with early preorder in September : I can see happening the same with old world launch box.

 

This is year is 40th anniversary of WHFB. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by cyrus

[novakai]

If there no full release reveal at Nova is most likely not being release this year 

but even so releasing in early December is like the no-man land schedule, you miss out on the Black Friday holiday sales and you basically hoping for last minute Christmas sales at a rather less opportunistic time to release stuff, probably why Middle earth was release at that moment.

[Bosskelot]

I think it's funny that they announce 30k Epic and immediately show off models and rules for it, meanwhile TOW is going on like 4 years since announcement with, uh, 3 models shown off and 0 rules content.

Really does feel like someone somewhere in GW wanted to do the project to keep eyes on the IP, but several other forces within the company are incredibly hostile towards it. My experience of GW employees during the early-mid 10's, during that time but also hearing them talk since then, is that the entire company was just looking for any excuse to get rid of Fantasy. This wasn't just some financial thing either this was a lot of the creatives wanting it gone and replaced by what would eventually become AOS.

[novakai]

I do find it interesting that the only GW employee that seem excited about the whole project was Louise Sudgens but she left GW already to venture out into content creation.

everyone else seem disinterested in the whole thing or people working on it seem like it was a side project to Horus Heresy launch 

of course it does seem like everyone is more 40K oriented in general

[The Lost Sigmarite]

39 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

My experience of GW employees during the early-mid 10's, during that time but also hearing them talk since then, is that the entire company was just looking for any excuse to get rid of Fantasy. This wasn't just some financial thing either this was a lot of the creatives wanting it gone and replaced by what would eventually become AOS.

I had the same experience. We were playing 40k 7th with my group of teen friends in the mid 2010s, and we thought about jumping to Fantasy, and the black polo of the GW store we were going to tried to temper our expectations ("Fantasy is a complex ruleset, you're gonna have to paint lots of models and you already are building 40k armies") and to be fair he was right. But that supports what you said. Deepest we got was my friend and I playing games with Island of Blood against the store manager and finding the rules convoluted and the game less fun than 40k.

I remember it was a rare thing to see a game of Fantasy. Paradoxically, AoS 1st ed got more games than WFB at my GW store even when the GHB wasn't around. After we had the 1st ever GHB you started to see even more games and this created a virtuous cycle that still runs today. 

I don't know what were the reasons for the employee hostility towards Fantasy. If I were to guess, I'd say the creatives didn't feel stimulated by the idea of doing minis for "fantasy faction with historical influences" over and over again. The financial factor would've factored in too imo, because the creatives saw damn well few people were buying and playing the minis they had spent time designing, and those that did were mostly grumpy veterans who were (and still are) grouchy gatekeepers for the most part. That's what signed to death warrant of Fantasy in my opinion. A too high barrier of entry coupled with an unwelcoming playerbase, which led to a vicious circle that finally ended with End Times.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Bosskelot said:

I think it's funny that they announce 30k Epic and immediately show off models and rules for it, meanwhile TOW is going on like 4 years since announcement with, uh, 3 models shown off and 0 rules content.

The long hype cycle really did hurt The Old World, in my opinion. I think if you go back to the early pages of this thread, you can see people correctly predicting that having potential players pour all their hopes and dreams into the game for 3+ years would definitely result in disappointment. Especially since GW was also quite guilty of overpromising (Kislev, Cathey, every army will be playable...).

It's too bad, because objectively TOW is a good thing. We are getting an officially supported Warhammer Fantasy game, new miniatures, and the chance to buy old OOP models again. That's pretty nice, given the limited scale. The problem is just that a lot of people though this would not be a limited scale game.

 

14 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

I don't know what were the reasons for the employee hostility towards Fantasy. If I were to guess, I'd say the creatives didn't feel stimulated by the idea of doing minis for "fantasy faction with historical influences" over and over again. The financial factor would've factored in too imo, because the creatives saw damn well few people were buying and playing the minis they had spent time designing, and those that did were mostly grumpy veterans who were (and still are) grouchy gatekeepers for the most part. That's what signed to death warrant of Fantasy in my opinion. A too high barrier of entry coupled with an unwelcoming playerbase, which led to a vicious circle that finally ended with End Times.

Although I think it's not fair to think of all Fantasy players as grognards, it is true that they exist and are at the very least a vocal minority. I keep reading posts on Warhammer Fantasy groups about TOW in order to get an impression what the actualy target demographic for the game thinks about it. The opinions I see expressed make me wonder if they are, in fact, a good demographic to target.

There was a conspiratorial post insinuating that GW is not even actually working on TOW. Most of the responses don't buy that idea, but many are still deeply distrustful of GW. The opinion that GW is setting TOW up to fail for some reason is quite prevalent.

When GW released the promo images that had an old Treelord in them a few weeks back, someone asked "Is this a new Treelord?" They were informed that it was, in fact, an old Treelord from 5th ed. It became clear that they had not actually bought models since an even older Treelord sculpt was current. Counting AoS, we are currently in 11th edition Warhammer Fantasy. Some of the participants in the WHFB community have not been part of the market for 20+ years.

In general, there is no consensus what people actually want out of the game in those groups. Some will not be content until AoS is undone. Some say they don't need "modern stuff" like a setting and narrative. Some are griping about niche factions like Dogs of War not being playable from launch. Some are disappointed that by the lack of new models, while others are very passionate about how all new models are overdesigned trash.

In my opinion, capitalizing on new players brought in by Vermintide and Total War would have been the better move. I just don't think there is enough of a unified player base to sustain an advanced-level rank-and-file game aimed at very established and returning players. I think an entry level Old World skirimish game would have been a much more foreward-looking choice.

[Black_Templar_Lad]

I want to say ToW has deserved the same level of (initial) support that every other game system has had, both in terms of hype and resource allocation, but I have no experience or insight into the business or logistical issues so I shouldn't harbour an opinion on that.

But certainly with the hype, from a customer point of view, it's like riding what you thought was going to be a giant wave and the moment you stand up, you're just shallowly and delicately cruising along feeling your board bumping on the bed below until your feet lightly graze the soft sand at the shoreline.

I completely understand why, if it's not successful, but I really really hope it is. I guess someone high up just didn't think this was going to be a worthwhile investment. Personally, I disagree obviously, but it really does feel like a wasted opportunity in terms of hype and marketing. 

You have the diehard Fantasy players, who don't play AoS and will only return with the Old World (although I personally feel this is a minority). You have the lovers of nostalgia, and then you have the massive influx of Total War/gaming fans. I personally feel this is the largest potential market outside of current Warhammer fans, as many had Total Warhammer as their introduction TO Warhammer. To not work with that or ride the wave, just feels like a missed opportunity to me.

That's getting on to topics I have no insight or experience to provide though so I can only speak for the hype. The game may very well be supported once it launches and the fan base settles in, but the build up......yeah, it's a bit bizarre.

Sorry for the long post. I've been so excited for the Old World. Because I just wanna see square bases again, it's going to be nice to see the world I grew up with again, new models, even just seeing the classic logo gets me excited. New lore. Playing Total Warhammer, the potential for kitbashing material for AoS. You know, I AM still excited, no matter if it's all resin. The marketing is what has lowered my expectations, maybe rightly so, but it has.

 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

23 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Although I think it's not fair to think of all Fantasy players as grognards, it is true that they exist and are at the very least a vocal minority. I keep reading posts on Warhammer Fantasy groups about TOW in order to get an impression what the actualy target demographic for the game thinks about it. The opinions I see expressed make me wonder if they are, in fact, a good demographic to target.

The grognards are definitely not a minority. I'd say they make a slight majority of the playerbase. Which is a problem to me... A game's community is very important for me if I want to play said game. That's why I've always said no when my friends told me to play League of Legends with them. Looking at the state of the Old World community right now, it does not make me want to play the game. 

49 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In general, there is no consensus what people actually want out of the game in those groups. Some will not be content until AoS is undone. Some say they don't need "modern stuff" like a setting and narrative. Some are griping about niche factions like Dogs of War not being playable from launch. Some are disappointed that by the lack of new models, while others are very passionate about how all new models are overdesigned trash..

Why am I not surprised at this statement... Once again the Warhammer players being passionate about how GW handles everything wrong and how they would do better in their place. Thing is, they're getting "modern stuff" weither they like it or not. Everything must evolve, or risk falling out or dying. Especially wargames. That's what happened to WFB in the first place, but they're too blind to see it. And all of those who think AoS will be undone can keep malding and seething, because it's never gonna happen. 

42 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In my opinion, capitalizing on new players brought in by Vermintide and Total War would have been the better move. I just don't think there is enough of a unified player base to sustain an advanced-level rank-and-file game aimed at very established and returning players. I think an entry level Old World skirimish game would have been a much more foreward-looking choice.

Problem is, you can't target a tabletop game to video game players. A video game comes with everything you need to play in the game's files and all you need is click and play. A tabletop game, you gotta build and paint your miniatures, learn the rulebook, and plan your meeting with other players (forcing you to go outside and meet real people) since unlike the video game you don't have animated painted minis in the game files, a matchmaking system and servers and no tutorial/AI to train against. The gap between video game and tabletop is just too high imo to capitalize on.

The problem is most of the Old World players can't bear the fact TOW is going to be a limited scale game, because of what WFB once was and out of jealousy for the "main fantasy game" that replaced it, AoS. And adding to that, it's pretty telling of the state of that comminity there are some people who think like that. You don't see MESBG players whining about LoTR being a small scale game. My opinion is, I think that once the grognards accept the reality TOW will be a limited scale game, they will become free of their bitterness and reach wargaming nirvana. 

[Hollow]

57 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

My opinion is, I think that once the grognards accept the reality TOW will be a limited scale game, they will become free of their bitterness and reach wargaming nirvana. 

 

Talk about fantasy! 😅 

 

57 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

The grognards are definitely not a minority. I'd say they make a slight majority of the playerbase. Which is a problem to me... A game's community is very important for me if I want to play said game. That's why I've always said no when my friends told me to play League of Legends with them. Looking at the state of the Old World community right now, it does not make me want to play the game.

 

Don't really understand this point as there is no such thing as a "single community" when it comes to these massive IPs, there are many communities that follow the games. Imagine if the "40k community" was defined by somewhere like Dakka? That place puts all the collective negative and toxic grognards of ToW to shame on a daily basis. If I allowed a place like that to set the tone I wouldn't go near 40k with a 10,000 foot barge pole. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Problem is, you can't target a tabletop game to video game players. A video game comes with everything you need to play in the game's files and all you need is click and play. A tabletop game, you gotta build and paint your miniatures, learn the rulebook, and plan your meeting with other players (forcing you to go outside and meet real people) since unlike the video game you don't have animated painted minis in the game files, a matchmaking system and servers and no tutorial/AI to train against. The gap between video game and tabletop is just too high imo to capitalize on.

I don't 100% think this is the case. At least anecdotally, the Dawn of War series definitely boosted the popularity of the 40K tabletop game in the past. The demographics are not a complete match, that is true. In general, the barrier to entry for video games is lower, so the expectation should definitely not be "Every Total War player will want to buy a full Warhammer Fantasy army". But there is enough overlap between the markets for video games, RPGs and tabletop games that I would expect at least some crossover. A lot of people already enjoy Total War and tabletop games at the same time. And you can see by the hype for AoS: Realms of Ruin that crossover interest from the tabletop to PC stratgy games exists as well.

I think in general it is a good move to have a tabletop game ready for people who are interested in the Old World setting to get started. But I don't think TOW does this well for a number of reasons: Being set in the past relative to TWW, lot of old models that new players would have no nostalgia for, rank-and-flank rules are not necessarily a selling point to new players, high barrier to entry in terms of army sizes...

I feel like I am getting too negative with my posts, so I want to end on a positive note. I actually perceive a good amount of excitement for TOW from established AoS players. I think partially because for people who are already actively playing a supported game, the release of TOW is all upside. You get access to OOP/variant models at worst case, and at best case you get to revisit the Old World setting with a new, supported, hopefully even fun rule set. I know that I personally plan to buy every new Tomb King sculpt, plus several returning kits like the sphinx and snake riders at the very least.

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

 

Although I think it's not fair to think of all Fantasy players as grognards, it is true that they exist and are at the very least a vocal minority. I keep reading posts on Warhammer Fantasy groups about TOW in order to get an impression what the actualy target demographic for the game thinks about it. The opinions I see expressed make me wonder if they are, in fact, a good demographic to target.

IN response to the notion that Gorgnards are a small but vocal minority amount WFB fans, I would think that someone who wants WFB to return would be a great example to use in a dictionary to describe "Grognard" in the vernacular context. Present company excluded, of course.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

IN response to the notion that Gorgnards are a small but vocal minority amount WFB fans, I would think that someone who wants WFB to return would be a great example to use in a dictionary to describe "Grognard" in the vernacular context. Present company excluded, of course.

I would disagree with that, at least to a degree. I think the definitive feature of grognards is not just a preference/nostalgia for older games, but the grumbling about how new games are generally bad.

The Old World is a cool setting that a lot of people like. I personally prefer the Mortal Realms in their current state (this was not the case when AoS launched), but it's not like the existence of a new setting "obsoletes" the old one. The same goes for gameplay: I prefer AoS style squads, but I don't think people are wrong for wanting historicals-inspired rank-and-flank.

If you are into tabletop RPGs, there exists a movement called "old school renaissance", where people are finding value in the design of the earliest editions of DnD and try to build games around the play style of that time. Some of those games are innovative and do certain things better than later evolutions of the genre. I don't necessarily think they have mass appeal in the same way that some newer games have, but they have thought-out solutions for problems many players have that draw upon older design paradigms.

However, as part of that movement, there are also exists a significant minority I would call grognards, who basically just want to play the same game of DnD 1e that they played as children and deny that any innovation of the last 40 years was in any way worthwhile. I think it's similar with the current WHFB player base. I don't think the majority there is "anti-progress" in the way I take grognards to be.