Tempest Eye Discussion

[Maddpainting]

My Stormdrake Guards should be in soon, Going to use them with my Scourgerunners lol, the idea of a turn 1 charge, and a 2+ save with no buffs on 2 drakes is too fun to pass up. 

The list idea and what i have is basically (Just trying to modify it to fit into 2 drops and if I want 8 chariots with something else, or 10 chariots, or etc.... so very minor details in the list, I also love Shadow warriors, so might do 8 chariots/30 warriors)

Fleetmaster general 
Hurricanum Mage
Hurricanum Mage
Freeguild/Dreadspears (Retinue for Fleetmaster)
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Stormdrake Guard x2


Optional
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Shadow Warriors 
Shadow Warriors 
Shadow Warriors 
Battlemage
Runelord

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

My Stormdrake Guards should be in soon, Going to use them with my Scourgerunners lol, the idea of a turn 1 charge, and a 2+ save with no buffs on 2 drakes is too fun to pass up. 

The list idea and what i have is basically (Just trying to modify it to fit into 2 drops and if I want 8 chariots with something else, or 10 chariots, or etc.... so very minor details in the list, I also love Shadow warriors, so might do 8 chariots/30 warriors)

Fleetmaster general 
Hurricanum Mage
Hurricanum Mage
Freeguild/Dreadspears (Retinue for Fleetmaster)
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Stormdrake Guard x2


Optional
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Scourgerunner Chariot
Shadow Warriors 
Shadow Warriors 
Shadow Warriors 
Battlemage
Runelord

Wow, you need to make friends with a Seraphon player for all those cold ones you have spare!

[Maddpainting]

20 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Wow, you need to make friends with a Seraphon player for all those cold ones you have spare!

I actually used them to make Drakespawn Knights.... now if they get 25pts cheaper I might use them. IDK what I will do with 20 of them lol. 

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I actually used them to make Drakespawn Knights.... now if they get 25pts cheaper I might use them. IDK what I will do with 20 of them lol. 

Well, you are going everywhere quite quickly, with all the zoomies.

I saw parts of an AoS metawatch yesterday, and Tempest's Eye didn't fare well. Most played, but lowest winrate of all of Cities.

[NauticalSoup]

I think building cities for shooting right now is a bit of a trap, and Tempest's Eye encourages you to build into it. Irondrakes in tempest were pretty reliant on telebombing your whole army with the bridge, sisters and handgunners both got nerfed (and sisters are very expensive atm). Not sure if pistolier/outrider builds are still functional but they lost max unit size and new coherency is particularly punishing for cavalry units without reach weapons. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I saw parts of an AoS metawatch yesterday, and Tempest's Eye didn't fare well. Most played, but lowest winrate of all of Cities.

Those two properties might be connected. If you make use of the TE traits to get resilient stuff onto objectives early and stay there, I think the city has a lot of good tools to offer. However, I think a lot of people running "bad" lists (maybe strongly themed or just kind of janky) will also go for Tempest's Eye. The generically good traits of +1 to saves turn one and the movement bonuses make TE the best choice for bad lists that don't benefit from the more focussed allegiance abilities of something like Hallowheart. So I think the causal direction goes the opposite way than we would expect in a lot of cases: It's not that going Tempest's Eye makes your list bad, but building a bad list makes going Tempest's Eye look attractive.

[Maddpainting]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Those two properties might be connected. If you make use of the TE traits to get resilient stuff onto objectives early and stay there, I think the city has a lot of good tools to offer. However, I think a lot of people running "bad" lists (maybe strongly themed or just kind of janky) will also go for Tempest's Eye. The generically good traits of +1 to saves turn one and the movement bonuses make TE the best choice for bad lists that don't benefit from the more focussed allegiance abilities of something like Hallowheart. So I think the causal direction goes the opposite way than we would expect in a lot of cases: It's not that going Tempest's Eye makes your list bad, but building a bad list makes going Tempest's Eye look attractive.

Yeah, cities being such a huge army and it is old world popular with many bad units, it is easy to make a fun list thats not very good for events. And this does happen, if you go to GT's you see many fun lists there. 

Also serious players will take the "best" not anything good or worst, Fulminators in LC is the best, so if you wanted to win the event why would you just not go to LC and the only thing you need to change is picking up 3 Fulminators kits and maybe a new general. 

But, while I want to win, I also want to play with my units and doing what I can without go full meta. I like TE and I like MSU, the dragons are adding some needed love to this army (I was thinking of going Har Kuron for a bit to get Morathi, but I am glad I wanted, the dragons are super cool). 

I am not worried about going 1st at a GT, I just don't want to have a negative play experience is all. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Lord Krungharr]

Why are Fulminators so great in Living City (asking as a noob to Cities armies)?  I like the outflanking most of all.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Lord Krungharr

[Frowny]

@Lord Krungharr with their shooting attack, you can use living cities fire and fade command ability to fade forward. With their base 10 movement, or coming on from deep strike you can guarantee a 3 inch charge either from your deployment zone or any flank. And they hit quite hard on the charge and are pretty sturdy for their points. 

@NauticalSoup i used to run the pistoleer and outrider build and it is pretty dead. It really needed the retreat and charge from the battalion to be useful. And the coherency stuff is rough for any bigger unit. They are also hurt by save stacking where rend 1 just isn't enough while not being able to really benefit from all out defence. And the list doesn't really use heroes or monsters. So all around took a huge hit in viability while also having the thing that made it unique removed.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 hours ago, Frowny said:

 i used to run the pistoleer and outrider build and it is pretty dead. It really needed the retreat and charge from the battalion to be useful. And the coherency stuff is rough for any bigger unit. They are also hurt by save stacking where rend 1 just isn't enough while not being able to really benefit from all out defence. And the list doesn't really use heroes or monsters. So all around took a huge hit in viability while also having the thing that made it unique removed.

 

It's too bad that the new edition broke the buff stacking that was kind of assumed for a lot of Cities units. Outriders would be pretty cool if they were not on a 5+ to hit.

[Maddpainting]

12 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Why are Fulminators so great in Living City (asking as a noob to Cities armies)?  I like the outflanking most of all.

Basically its the Move after shooting, starting on the table they can move 20" if they are within 22" of any enemy unit, or start off the table, come in 6"/9" shoot something within 12" and move 10". 

They also work in TE , +1 to charges, +3" to turn 1 move, +1 to turn 1 saves, +1 to atks, you can have a General Run and charge to keep up with them (like a BM on Griffon for that +1atk and +1 to charges) which those are auras, 1 being a Spell so they all stack. 

I only talk about TE bc thats what I play and thats this topic. 

You can also give them Fly now. Which means screens are basically pointless against them.

[Lord Krungharr]

Luckily I magnetized my Concussor hands; they'll be getting some big glaives to be Fulminators soon.  TE sounds like a fun City to try out.  Might be good for those Gyrobombers/Gyrocopters too from the Start Collecting Greywater Fastness sets.

[Lord Krungharr]

Is it super necessary to have a KO Frigate or Ironclad to transport my Grundstok Thunderers?  Just wondering if I should budget for a ship.  And then is the Ironclad really worth taking over a Frigate for that points difference?

While I do see potential with the extra shooting and alpha strike and they look pretty striking, what about a more tanky model who can survive combat (and throw some decent attacks back) ....I rather like the Frostheart Phoenix better for the points, and it's also very pretty on the table.  

Speaking of the Thunderers, I noticed if they have all the fancy pants guns they can't get the +1 to hit with them whilst on board a ship, and that hit debuff effect from the fumigator doesn't work either.  If garrisoning, is it better then to have just the regular rifles?  

Definitely liking Tempest's Eye for a mob of angry charging Dwarves, but they'll need some swift support units.  I have the Gyrobomber/Copter, Frostheart Phoenix, Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger.  I see there's a spell to add 1 to attacks...would love to see a line of 30 Hammerers all buffed by Runelords smash into the entire enemy line with that.

[Thugmullet]

8 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Is it super necessary to have a KO Frigate or Ironclad to transport my Grundstok Thunderers?  Just wondering if I should budget for a ship.  And then is the Ironclad really worth taking over a Frigate for that points difference?

While I do see potential with the extra shooting and alpha strike and they look pretty striking, what about a more tanky model who can survive combat (and throw some decent attacks back) ....I rather like the Frostheart Phoenix better for the points, and it's also very pretty on the table.  

Speaking of the Thunderers, I noticed if they have all the fancy pants guns they can't get the +1 to hit with them whilst on board a ship, and that hit debuff effect from the fumigator doesn't work either.  If garrisoning, is it better then to have just the regular rifles?  

Definitely liking Tempest's Eye for a mob of angry charging Dwarves, but they'll need some swift support units.  I have the Gyrobomber/Copter, Frostheart Phoenix, Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger.  I see there's a spell to add 1 to attacks...would love to see a line of 30 Hammerers all buffed by Runelords smash into the entire enemy line with that.

I think use of the Frigate will come down more to what role your KO are there for in your army. Unlike running a full KO list that frigate is going to be up field and dangling out there without surport by itself. The KO shooting is good, but it's not great, 1 frigate up field with a single KO unit isn't going to be relied upon for an alpha strike that deletes enemy units or creates a situation where its safe from a counter charge. As an example, For 100 points less you can grab a bridge and 20 irondrakes that will prob be a better alpha strike (though that bridge is not reliable either) . If i was to use the frigate I would simply use it to drop off a KO unit on a flag early and then retreat it back out. The unit can stay and be a pain on that point and the frigate can then be used as a gun platform for the rest of the game and as a threat to the other players back line. I think a unit of 2 drakes for 340 points would make for a better alpha strike and be cheaper.

Having said that, it's a Frigate, regardless of how good or bad it is it looks like a hoot to play and who doesn't want a unit that teleports around the board all day long, shooting off cannons and carrying a squad of men with it. That's cool.

So I'm thinking for fun and a good unit combo then the frigate is great.

For the best use of points in a competitive list... I'm not so sure.

[readercolin]

For me, the question of frigate vs ironclad is what is going to be in the rest of my army.  Thunderers + frigate is 520 points, thunderers + ironclad is 760 points.  You HAVE to have at least 6 other units, and if I am running either set, I really want to be able to get them at least the +1 to hit bubble from a Taurelion or a Hurricanum, which is another ~300 points, and then you still have 5 more units to run.

The next question is why I am taking them.  Realistically, I can run 20 irondrakes + runelord + 10 longbeards for 525 points.  Damage wise, 20 irondrakes without any buffs that move are going to be dishing out about 2/3 the damage of frigate + thunderers.  However, they have a bunch of buffs available to them, AND they are counting as 20 models on the objective while thunderers on a frigate are counting for 2.  So I am running them because I want something more mobile, that has some punch.

In general, I lean more towards running the ironclad.  I would go so far as to say that I would default to the ironclad before touching the frigate, and only really look at the frigate if I am running short on points for the rest of my army.  Additionally, I would only look to run them with the aethershot rifles.  This is for 3 reasons.  First, and most importantly, I really don't want to have to roll out 5 different weapon profiles.  It isn't worth it.  Second, the boat wants to land just within 12" to get all of its guns on target - but you have to do your shooting in 2 separate attacks.  You really don't want to open fire, kill some models, and then be out of range of the rest of your guns.  Finally, if you want to hit something behind a screen, or something that is trying to hide, having 18" range guns gives you much more flexibility to get in and hit a priority target, rather than having to shoot screens.

[Lord Krungharr]

Thanks for the inputs!  Very good points all around.  I am leaning towards Ironclad then, as I do see the KO bunch as an area cleanser, which will then aid the progress of the tunneling Fyreslayers I have in mind.  I do have 10 Thunderers with the plain rifles so they could still unload while garrisoned.  Haven't used any garrisoning before.  Gonna have to read up on those rules about embarking and disembarking, etc.

Then the 30 Longbeards and 20 Irondrakes plus Runelord(s) and Warden King (maybe) can run up normally.

[NauticalSoup]

30 longbeards eh? Why so many? Even if restricting oneself to dispossessed the longbeard is an inferior screening/combat unit to the ironbreaker. I think my ironbreaker grenades alone produce more damage than equivalent size units of longbeards do.

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

30 longbeards eh? Why so many? Even if restricting oneself to dispossessed the longbeard is an inferior screening/combat unit to the ironbreaker. I think my ironbreaker grenades alone produce more damage than equivalent size units of longbeards do.

I’m not sure what role a unit of 30 longbeards could take, yet a unit of 20 could be an interesting somewhat semi damage dealers, with their two handed great axes.

in desperate times, these guys could be worth their points more then most would think,

especially in a mostly dispossessed army, my preferred city of sigmar.

after-all the beard-things meat is-is delicious, unlike that of the man-things that smell-reeks of-of fear

[NauticalSoup]

5 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I’m not sure what role a unit of 30 longbeards could take, yet a unit of 20 could be an interesting somewhat semi damage dealers, with their two handed great axes.

in desperate times, these guys could be worth their points more then most would think,

especially in a mostly dispossessed army, my preferred city of sigmar.

after-all the beard-things meat is-is delicious, unlike that of the man-things that smell-reeks of-of fear

They are extremely poor damage dealers on the same level as liberators and other such trash troops. Ironbreakers deal slightly more, particularly because of the grenade, but their damage without buffs is also essentially negligible (although having twice as many attacks makes them much better recipients of most buffs).

Both these units do less than half the damage of hammerers and will struggle to inflict harm even on comparable chaff units. Longbeards main asset is the grumbles making them a weird chaff/support piece combo.

[readercolin]

11 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Thanks for the inputs!  Very good points all around.  I am leaning towards Ironclad then, as I do see the KO bunch as an area cleanser, which will then aid the progress of the tunneling Fyreslayers I have in mind.  I do have 10 Thunderers with the plain rifles so they could still unload while garrisoned.  Haven't used any garrisoning before.  Gonna have to read up on those rules about embarking and disembarking, etc.

Ahh... the garrison rules... also known of as the biggest pile of garbage in 3.0.  Seriously GW - do something about KO's garrison.

So, you can move into a garrison if you are wholly within 6" of the "feature" (note, only "marine" keyword can garrison ships).  In the rules on the boat, you cannot garrison the boat if it has already moved this turn.  This means that if the marines are away from the boat, the boat has to move to them, and then next turn can pick them up.  Yes, you can garrison into/out of combat.  You can garrison and then fly away the same turn.

However, to get out of the boat, the boat has to not move for the entire movement phase, and then at the end of the movement phase you can get out.  Previously, the marines could get out, and then the boat could still move afterwards... but apparently this is too good for KO in 3.0.

I may or may not be grumpy with how this ends up playing out on the board.

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

They are extremely poor damage dealers on the same level as liberators and other such trash troops. Ironbreakers deal slightly more, particularly because of the grenade, but their damage without buffs is also essentially negligible (although having twice as many attacks makes them much better recipients of most buffs).

Both these units do less than half the damage of hammerers and will struggle to inflict harm even on comparable chaff units. Longbeards main asset is the grumbles making them a weird chaff/support piece combo.

Nah mate, you’ll very likely have some of them (10-20) in your army to at least buff your irondrakes or other units like hammerers.

yet if your hammering units are gone, and you’re left with those longbeards in the last few turns, they can still deal a good amount of damage.

adding some buffs like the aura command ability of the dwarfen king, the extra rend from a runelord, and if needed all out attack, can make them literally a blender, that will be doing so much more work.

But it is true, that is something I would only use in certain dire situations, when your true hammers are gone,

yet I wouldn’t say that longbeards are trash, since with a few buffs they can be better at blending elite units, unlike their counter parts the ironbreakers, with the same buffs (although theses guys are and can be an even better horde (5+, 6+ save) blenders.

 

[NauticalSoup]

7 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Nah mate, you’ll very likely have some of them (10-20) in your army to at least buff your irondrakes or other units like hammerers.

yet if your hammering units are gone, and you’re left with those longbeards in the last few turns, they can still deal a good amount of damage.

adding some buffs like the aura command ability of the dwarfen king, the extra rend from a runelord, and if needed all out attack, can make them literally a blender, that will be doing so much more work.

But it is true, that is something I would only use in certain dire situations, when your true hammers are gone,

yet I wouldn’t say that longbeards are trash, since with a few buffs they can be better at blending elite units, unlike their counter parts the ironbreakers, with the same buffs (although theses guys are and can be an even better horde (5+, 6+ save) blenders.

 

I bring 10 longbeards every game, my friend, to buff irondrakes and hammerers. You made no mention of their support utility just their imaginary damage potential.

They will never be blenders, nor will ironbreakers. That's... I don't know what armies you're playing but it's just a fantasy. Go crack out a damage calculator and see how much damage they can do against various targets- it's chip damage. Worth wasting buffs on only if everything else is dead. Even the ironbreakers are better (better, not 'good') against armour because they can open with for a couple automatic mortals.

This is such a silly discussion anyway - a hammerer has the same save, costs 1.3x as much and does more than 2x the damage. It makes no sense to bring longbeards for such a purpose when they are in a book jam packed with excellent hammer infantry.

Edited December 21, 2021 by NauticalSoup

[Skreech Verminking]

33 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

I bring 10 longbeards every game, my friend, to buff irondrakes and hammerers. You made no mention of their support utility just their imaginary damage potential.

They will never be blenders, nor will ironbreakers. That's... I don't know what armies you're playing but it's just a fantasy. Go crack out a damage calculator and see how much damage they can do against various targets- it's chip damage. Worth wasting buffs on only if everything else is dead. Even the ironbreakers are better (better, not 'good') against armour because they can open with for a couple automatic mortals.

This is such a silly discussion anyway - a hammerer has the same save, costs 1.3x as much and does more than 2x the damage. It makes no sense to bring longbeards for such a purpose when they are in a book jam packed with excellent hammer infantry.

My favorite army would be the skaven, currently that army doesn’t have any reliable hammer units.

Although longbeards not looking like a damage dealer at first, 20 of them buffed by a runelords rend prayer, the warden king ca, and all out attack, will have them at 41 attacks hitting on 2s wounding on 3s, rerroling 1s to wound with a -2 rend and 1 damage.

of course hammerers are most often going to be the better option, yet when When your true damage dealing units are gone, late in the game, a unit of 20 longbeards can still be a pretty great option and they are pretty durable with a 4+ save, something a good amount of skaven elite units wish they had.

 

[NauticalSoup]

Every buff you listed goes better on a hammerer or an irondrake. Most of them go better on ironbreakers (everything except+1 attack, although fully buffed with that the ironbreakers will do significantly more). The opportunity cost for 20 longbeards is 100 points that might have been allocated towards more effective units and a waste of a reinforcement point better assigned to something that makes use of it. When I'm whittled down to my last unit I don't want it to be the longbeards- I want them to be fed into the grinder as a screen WELL before we get to that point to preserve the best stuff as long as possible.

The awfulness if Skaven doesn't really enter into it when CoS aren't a strong army and can easily do better than 20 longbeards for damage potential. You can always find a worse unit for a comparison, it doesn't make the subject any better when the stuff you actually need to worry about is on the opposite end of the performance spectrum.

Edited December 22, 2021 by NauticalSoup

[Skreech Verminking]

28 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Every buff you listed goes better on a hammerer or an irondrake. Most of them go better on ironbreakers (everything except+1 attack, although fully buffed with that the ironbreakers will do significantly more). The opportunity cost for 20 longbeards is 100 points that might have been allocated towards more effective units and a waste of a reinforcement point better assigned to something that makes use of it. When I'm whittled down to my last unit I don't want it to be the longbeards- I want them to be fed into the grinder as a screen WELL before we get to that point to preserve the best stuff as long as possible.

The awfulness if Skaven doesn't really enter into it when CoS aren't a strong army and can easily do better than 20 longbeards for damage potential. You can always find a worse unit for a comparison, it doesn't make the subject any better when the stuff you actually need to worry about is on the opposite end of the performance spectrum.

Just wondering but how much better are ironbreakers going to be against a unit with a 2+ save instead of the 20 longbeards with the already mentioned buffs?

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skreech Verminking