AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[Frowny]

Also note that with the new woods, you can connect them up as you choose so long as the tips are pointing in. So you can have them pointed inward but at odd angles, to make a longer skinnier woods.                                                                                                                  

You don't actually have to make a circle, more like a jaggedy long oval if you want. Helps you maximize surface area or fit into certain locations.

Also, can't shadow warriors become battleline with some sort of general? I forget now, but that would save you points in all those pheonix guard if you want.

While I think there is some play to the shadow warriors with their ok melee, ok shooting and great flexibility, I don't think there is nearly so much value to the treelord just to get the +1/+1 on their shooting attcks. You could almost have a 30 more shadow warriors for the price of the treelord.  90 shots at 3+/4+ is nearly as good as 60 at 2+/3+, has 30 more bodies, more suriveable even out of cover and is way way better in combat. Let alone if you are near a hurricanum which equalizes the shooting as well. 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Frowny

[ColsBols]

Hello, I am looking at trying a wanderers/high elf + sylvaneth only list with minimal humies (battlemages and hurricanum allowed), how viable is that these days and what have people tried that works? 

Also, what can I proxy old swifthawk griffons as because those models are wicked

 

My starting list is gonna be built around 20x wildwood rangers, 10 eternal guard, 20 sisters, assassin, battlemagi

Edited December 3, 2020 by ColsBols

[Popisdead]

19 hours ago, Frowny said:

Also note that with the new woods, you can connect them up as you choose so long as the tips are pointing in. So you can have them pointed inward but at odd angles, to make a longer skinnier woods.                                                                                                                  

You don't actually have to make a circle, more like a jaggedy long oval if you want. Helps you maximize surface area or fit into certain locations.

Also, can't shadow warriors become battleline with some sort of general? I forget now, but that would save you points in all those pheonix guard if you want.

While I think there is some play to the shadow warriors with their ok melee, ok shooting and great flexibility, I don't think there is nearly so much value to the treelord just to get the +1/+1 on their shooting attcks. You could almost have a 30 more shadow warriors for the price of the treelord.  90 shots at 3+/4+ is nearly as good as 60 at 2+/3+, has 30 more bodies, more suriveable even out of cover and is way way better in combat. Let alone if you are near a hurricanum which equalizes the shooting as well. 

 

Good tip about the wood pieces.  

A treelord is 180, shadow Warriors are 110.  Not sure your math there.   If you mean an Ancient, he's 260, so about 20 SHs.  I think the Ancient and his free wood is a key component to the list.  

17 hours ago, ColsBols said:

Hello, I am looking at trying a wanderers/high elf + sylvaneth only list with minimal humies (battlemages and hurricanum allowed), how viable is that these days and what have people tried that works? 

Also, what can I proxy old swifthawk griffons as because those models are wicked

 

My starting list is gonna be built around 20x wildwood rangers, 10 eternal guard, 20 sisters, assassin, battlemagi

The better units out of Wanderers are SotW, eternal guard are good as well.  10-man EG fill BL decently and ambushing SotW are great and get exponentially better as you increase the number of them.  Wild Riders in larger units can hit hard but subject to dice spiking.  I'm a fan cause in game they've taken down some scary anvil guard dragons for me as clean up.  Sisters of the Watch aren't bad, but are better in the magic city.  They are a 10W caster and with healing your opponent needs to do 8Ws to stop their effectiveness plus you have Emerald Lifeswarm.  But they aren't too hard to kill.

For Sylvaneth the better units are Durthu and Drycha.  They benefit the heal, have shooting and can be high dmg dealers with support.  There are arguments to be made about Kurnoth Hunters with Bows, Scythes and Swords as well as Alarielle (she benefits from the Hurricanum which you can ambush, and double move her to mitigate her poor stats).  Tree Revs are good in every Order list out there.  Their native ambush ability is just outright good as well as their single rr a phase.  Even just 5 would be good for late game teleporting.

Your starting list is okay.  I would get a Nomad prince so all your Wanderers are BL, otherwise you just have the 10 EG.  A lone Battlemage isn't very good but one on a Hurricanum will benefit your list greatly.  Or you could consider 10 Darkshards and a Sorceress.  She can be an adjutant, stab the chumps for casting and they can take retinue wounds for the Nomad Prince.  Just thoughts...  I would suggest dropping the Assassin and BM for a Hurricanum.

I am a personal fan of Wildwood rangers.  they have been priced poorly historically but right now 10 can do some legit damage to any monster.  20 should do well.  10 can take out a Ghorgon; not a good example but, a Sons of Behemat "baby giant", is better and we are seeing them.  10 SotW and 10 Rangers will work one a turn.  

The assassin is fine.  If you really want to take him have him pop out of either Sisters of Rangers.  I have one painted up but I've never taken him.  He does well popping out of 20-30 Shadow Warriors and makes them BL.  For Wanderer lists he's a good distraction piece.  

The old 7th ed Starter Griffon proxies well as a Freeguild General on Griffon.  He is good in LC also.  the spear and better armour suits him.  And the FG General on a Griffon is a great choice.  You could also proxy him as a Phoenix.  Either annointed hero on a phoenix is REALLY good in LC.  

good luck  *sorry I ranted but Wanderers/Sylvaneth are my main army for 33 years so I blather on and on.

[Kyriakin]

49 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

good luck  *sorry I ranted but Wanderers/Sylvaneth are my main army for 33 years so I blather on and on.

I started around 1994 or 1995, with the old 3rd Edition models. Those skinny metal hunting hounds (with the handler, and his two outward-ponting blades) and, of course, the "Saturday Night Fever" and "Free Hugs Here" metal treemen.

This was not long before the big 5th Edition release (i.e. Waywatchers, etc.) that made my old models look immediately obsolete.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Kyriakin

[ColsBols]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

stuff

thanks so much, that's great. I need to find something elfy to proxy as a hurricanum! maybe the floaty tree spell from sylvaneth...

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, ColsBols said:

thanks so much, that's great. I need to find something elfy to proxy as a hurricanum! maybe the floaty tree spell from sylvaneth...

I just built mine   Just have to glue the mages on and then maybe a bunch of spites in a circle around the trees.

2 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

I started around 1994 or 1995, with the old 3rd Edition models. Those skinny metal hunting hounds (with the handler, and his two outward-ponting blades) and, of course, the "Saturday Night Fever" and "Free Hugs Here" metal treemen.

This was not long before the big 5th Edition release (i.e. Waywatchers, etc.) that made my old models look immediately obsolete.

I have some of those.  I've been using the Beastmaster, Boar and Bear as Rangers.  I have the 1987 Wardancers also which I'm proxying as Rangers.  

I've been using a lot of older models repurposed.  The character of older models, while static and usually fairly 2Dish are still really appealing and a lot of fun to paint.  

[ColsBols]

23 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

that looks amazing! I have an old spellweaver coming so maybe I'll use that for the battlemage, gonna use the floating tree as the vehicle and then...figure out some kinda turret

[mrteige]

11 hours ago, ColsBols said:

thanks so much, that's great. I need to find something elfy to proxy as a hurricanum! maybe the floaty tree spell from sylvaneth...

This is my Living City Hurricanum. Still need to do the base.

[ColsBols]

6 hours ago, mrteige said:

This is my Living City Hurricanum. Still need to do the base.

 

WOOOOW that is wicked

 

[mrteige]

thx. 

This is my hobby project when i need a break from my more competitive minded armies

[Stormlight]

On 10/29/2020 at 2:14 PM, Popisdead said:

I have one list with Durthu kitted.  Hence the crux of asking about the 3 x 10 EG.  I think the list I was dreaming up was Durthu, Sorceress, Hurricanum w/ mage,  Nomad Prince, 2 x 10 EG, 10 Darkswords, 4 x 10 SotW, lifeswarm, command point.  ambush durthu, launch the Hurricanum up with him, ambush a couple units of SotW, then a core holding back on objectives.  

 

 

I would start with things that spam Mortal Wounds vs Ossiarchs.  The SotW will do well.  Don't underestimate the value of a Nomad Prince.  He's really good for an infantry hero.  I like the first list. 

A little weak for holding objectives.  

I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts on the combination of a Knight Azyros, Nomad Prince, and Sisters of the Watch, which seems like an auto-include to me. If you combine the re-roll of 1's to hit from the Knight Azyros with the +1 to hit from the Nomad Prince's command ability, then every block of 10 Sisters (assuming double shots from no movement) will score ((20 * 5/6) + ((20 - (20 * 5/6))*(5/6))) * (4/6) = roughly 13 wounds with 3 additional mortal wounds from their ability on average. Thus, every block of 10 sisters can expect to delete an enemy unit of 10 models with a save of 4+ or worse. 

Since the Knight Azyros can fly, it does not need to be set up in the Hidden Paths, leaving room for heavy-hitting shock troops that can take advantage of 'Strike then Melt Away', like Concussors. 

With this in mind, I would change my originally proposed 1000 point Living City to:

Leaders
Nomad Prince
Knight Azyros

Units
Sisters of the Watch x 10
Sisters of the Watch x 10
Dreadspears x 10
Tree-Revenants x 5
Concussors x 2
Gyrocopter

Where the Nomad Prince, Concussors, and both units of the Sisters would be set up in the Hidden Paths, the Knight Azyros would fly in to illuminate the target of my ranged attacks, the Dreadspears would hold a home objective, and the Gyrocopter and Tree-Revenants would take objectives that are farther away.

There's no magic in this list but I'm not sure if that's a big deal in a 1000-point setting. I would need to think more about the optimal Command Trait and Artefact of Power. 

[Popisdead]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:26 PM, Stormlight said:

I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts on the combination of a Knight Azyros, Nomad Prince, and Sisters of the Watch, which seems like an auto-include to me. If you combine the re-roll of 1's to hit from the Knight Azyros with the +1 to hit from the Nomad Prince's command ability, then every block of 10 Sisters (assuming double shots from no movement) will score ((20 * 5/6) + ((20 - (20 * 5/6))*(5/6))) * (4/6) = roughly 13 wounds with 3 additional mortal wounds from their ability on average. Thus, every block of 10 sisters can expect to delete an enemy unit of 10 models with a save of 4+ or worse. 

Since the Knight Azyros can fly, it does not need to be set up in the Hidden Paths, leaving room for heavy-hitting shock troops that can take advantage of 'Strike then Melt Away', like Concussors. 

With this in mind, I would change my originally proposed 1000 point Living City to:

Leaders
Nomad Prince
Knight Azyros

Units
Sisters of the Watch x 10
Sisters of the Watch x 10
Dreadspears x 10
Tree-Revenants x 5
Concussors x 2
Gyrocopter

Where the Nomad Prince, Concussors, and both units of the Sisters would be set up in the Hidden Paths, the Knight Azyros would fly in to illuminate the target of my ranged attacks, the Dreadspears would hold a home objective, and the Gyrocopter and Tree-Revenants would take objectives that are farther away.

There's no magic in this list but I'm not sure if that's a big deal in a 1000-point setting. I would need to think more about the optimal Command Trait and Artefact of Power. 

IMO SotW scale really well in LC and only get harder and harder to counter.  I wonder if price point is an issue.  I've scrounged their bows from ppl who built SWs and converted my old GG.  I'm keen to try 70-90.  Gotta say,.. I miss the other Wanderer heroes but not at the expense of the NP being a blanket key to unlock BL for Wanderers as opposed to certain heroes tied to certain units.  

I'm also not sure the unit gets significantly stronger for the points you pay out for the two buffs (+2 to hit and rr 1s).  I guess you have to take the NP so over the course of the game does the Knight of Azyros make up for just 10 more SotW?

[Stormlight]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

IMO SotW scale really well in LC and only get harder and harder to counter.  I wonder if price point is an issue.  I've scrounged their bows from ppl who built SWs and converted my old GG.  I'm keen to try 70-90.  Gotta say,.. I miss the other Wanderer heroes but not at the expense of the NP being a blanket key to unlock BL for Wanderers as opposed to certain heroes tied to certain units.  

I'm also not sure the unit gets significantly stronger for the points you pay out for the two buffs (+2 to hit and rr 1s).  I guess you have to take the NP so over the course of the game does the Knight of Azyros make up for just 10 more SotW?

Let's look at the math (AoS Statshammer):

Assuming two attacks each, an unbuffed unit of ten Sisters of the Watch will inflict the following damage on an enemy unit:

• 2+ save: 3.89 wounds
• 3+ save: 5.44 wounds
• 4+ save: 7 wounds
• 5+ save: 8.56 wounds
• 6+ save: 10.11 wounds
• No save: 11.67 wounds

With just the Azyros (re-roll hit rolls of 1):

• 2+ save: 4.54 wounds
• 3+ save: 6.35 wounds
• 4+ save: 8.17 wounds
• 5+ save: 9.98 wounds
• 6+ save: 11.8 wounds
• No save: 13.61 wounds

With just the Nomad Prince (+1 to hit):

• 2+ save: 4.86 wounds
• 3+ save: 6.81 wounds
• 4+ save: 8.75 wounds
• 5+ save: 10.69 wounds
• 6+ save: 12.64 wounds
• No save: 14.58 wounds

With both buffs:

• 2+ save: 5.67 wounds
• 3+ save: 7.94 wounds
• 4+ save: 10.21 wounds
• 5+ save: 12.48 wounds
• 6+ save: 14.75 wounds
• No save: 17.01 wounds

 

So, more or less, the Azyros will yield an extra wound or two per for every ten sisters. But it's not strictly necessary. Qualitatively, I like the Azyros for a few reasons:

1. It's re-roll hit rolls of 1 aura is more scalable than the Nomad Prince's Lord of the Deepwood Host command ability. It does not cost a command point, and it's only limited by how many enemy units are within 10" the Azyros, rather than how many units of Sisters are wholly within 12" of the NP. There's a big difference between "within" and "wholly within".
2. It synergizes well with the general strategy of a Living City army. It can fly around the board to support your units as necessary, whether they start on or off the table. 
3. It's a threat piece that you can use as a trap. Your opponent will overestimate the value of the Azyros and try and kill it ASAP, meaning they may leave your other units alone. Additionally, you can try and bait enemy units away from the table edge to open up more room for your Hidden Path units. If you lose the Azyros early on, oh well! The Prince can still buff your Sisters just as well.

 

The Azyros adds a lot of utility for 100 points, but its utility doesn't stretch as far in a 1000 point match as you pointed out.

I agree with your point on the scalability of the Sisters. An army with 50+ Sisters will shred almost anything, provided you can adequately maneuver and defend them on the tabletop. I'd love to see some list ideas along this line of thinking. What units would synergize well with them? A Celestial Hurricanum for the hit bonus? Some cheap units for screens? 

[Popisdead]

23 hours ago, Stormlight said:

 

Let's look at the math (AoS Statshammer):

 

So, more or less, the Azyros will yield an extra wound or two per for every ten sisters. But it's not strictly necessary. Qualitatively, I like the Azyros for a few reasons:

1. It's re-roll hit rolls of 1 aura is more scalable than the Nomad Prince's Lord of the Deepwood Host command ability. It does not cost a command point, and it's only limited by how many enemy units are within 10" the Azyros, rather than how many units of Sisters are wholly within 12" of the NP. There's a big difference between "within" and "wholly within".
2. It synergizes well with the general strategy of a Living City army. It can fly around the board to support your units as necessary, whether they start on or off the table. 
3. It's a threat piece that you can use as a trap. Your opponent will overestimate the value of the Azyros and try and kill it ASAP, meaning they may leave your other units alone. Additionally, you can try and bait enemy units away from the table edge to open up more room for your Hidden Path units. If you lose the Azyros early on, oh well! The Prince can still buff your Sisters just as well.

 

The Azyros adds a lot of utility for 100 points, but its utility doesn't stretch as far in a 1000 point match as you pointed out.

I agree with your point on the scalability of the Sisters. An army with 50+ Sisters will shred almost anything, provided you can adequately maneuver and defend them on the tabletop. I'd love to see some list ideas along this line of thinking. What units would synergize well with them? A Celestial Hurricanum for the hit bonus? Some cheap units for screens? 

It's good to know these generic perspectives, thanks for your effort.   

1) I think,.. it's key to remember the usage of the Azyros vs the Prince  The azyros rr 1s means you get more chances to roll 6s.  

2) Also very good point.  Somethign I've struggled with regarding the prince, especially as I'm going to 3 x 10 EG so I can have Durthu as my general, or Alarielle.

He's only 100 points?  My bad, I thought he was 140 or 150.  At 100 points he's a good value.  

I think a Celestial Hurricanum is arguably mandatory in any CoS list.  Has a laser beam MW output generator in addition to buffing and in LC he can move twice with the shooting attack and if you ambush on it's mobility is more than you suspect.  

CoS struggles with screens and cheap units.  Those vanguard SCE birdies as well as Scouregrunner chariots are good choices.  (the latter not as much)

[Kiekeboe]

Ok hear me out. Thinking outside the box here. Living City is the only army where you can deepstrike a Luminark of Hysh. What about a list with 4 Luminarks ^{(buying/painting these makes me uncomfortable, but that's besides the point)} where you put all 4 in reserve -> deploy them alongside your opponent in your first turn -> unleash hellfire along 30" lines basically obliterating whatever you want. You still have 1000 points spare to form something of a backup plan or second wave. Or use those points to add insult to injury by adding a Celestant Prime to take out what's left standing for example.

Would this win games? Or is just a bit too gimmicky? I'm sure it won't make you any new friends but as I said, thinking out loud here. Would certainly turn heads if you bring it to a tournament.

 

Unrelated to Luminarks: I've been playing a ton of Living City over the past few months and would like to post my findings. I've gotten loads of really useful info from this forum/thread so I'd love to give some back. (Keep in mind, all of it is anecdotal, it's just what I've experienced in ~15+ games testing different lists)

• Drakesworn templar, while expensive, has a place in specific lists in Living City. As a general with a 2+ save because of Ironoak Artisan he can be a real nuisance for opponents who lack mortal wounds. Throw him in a flank where he can occupy a chunk of your opponents army and they'll spend 2-3 turns getting rid of it while you score objectives elsewhere. His damage profiles are terrible, don't ever fight 1 on 1 (monster)battles with him. His bite is great, my most recent game I played against a unit of 6 Varanguard where he survived their double activation and then ate the middle one, breaking coherency causing the opponent to have to sacrifice half of the unit.
  Also plays well with a unit of 4 fulminators/concussors, situationally giving them +1 to hit.
• Living City is hands down the best place for Sisters of the Watch. While it's true that 20 irondrakes with a runelord deal equal or just a bit more damage, the dwarves just require way more setup and a move or bridge to get them where you want them. Deepstriking units of 10 sisters and taking out key targets is extremely useful. When my main deepstrike comes down on let's say the right side of the board, I just love plopping down 10 sisters on the other end of the board. The opponent has to send something over to deal with them while they're also dealing with your big deepstrike. Meanwhile you're also moving your main anvil up the board to start scoring points.
• Don't feel bad for not using the deepstrike. Yes this is a defining features of Living City but a poor deepstrike can leave your army out of position and immediately lose the game. I started out with lots of Durthu games because in Living City he's a god (ironoak artisan + spear of the hunt) where in Sylvaneth he's just mediocre to poor now that ghyrstrike is gone. I would deepstrike him with 4 concussors and shoot+move+charge everyone in. This would destroy whatever they landed in but Durthu would just spend the next 3 turns walking to his next target, wasting his potential because he's just so damn slow and had to start his journey at a table edge and enemies just stay away from him. 
• My best performing armies generally consist of 3 main forces. First is a strong anvil backline (things like 6 kurnoths/30 Eternal Guard/20 Phoenix Guard) that protects your wizards/hurricanum/squishies. Second is a main deepstriking force consisting of a strong leader unit with a shooting profile (Durthu/Drakesworn templar) on ironoak artisan/spear of the hunt and supported by another unit that can shoot and fight well in melee like Concussors. And third are my filler deepstrikers like MSU sisters of the watch, shadow warriors, Celestant Prime, or other things that drop down and mainly cause a distraction that has to be dealt with. Having a strategy like this in mind really helps with list building because we all know how complex list building can get with all the options the Cities book gives us. 
• Strike then Melt Away is brilliant, but very situational, and has to be kept in mind when list building. Let's say you're going for a strategy with a strong deepstriking general, this means you're forfeiting General+Adjutant command points. Which also means you can buy the one CP and you're down to 1 per turn after that. If you're doing the Templar+Concussors deepstrike for example, you're burning both your CP in turn 1 to guarantee the charges/positioning so you better pray that your unit of 30 EG isn't in need of a battleshock skip. Strike then Melt Away is a wonderful tool for an initial alpha strike but it's also a great way to burn your CP and hurt yourself later on. Use with caution. For example on an Alarielle to zoom her 32" across the board, dropping 20 dryads midway and charging some big unit on the other side of the field, they won't see it coming.
• People say that Hurricanum in a cities army is an auto include. I can see why because a +1 to hit bubble, +1 to cast ^{(to battlemages)}, and a 3D3 mw ranged attack is nothing to scoff at, but at 280 points you can - depending on your game plan - absolutely leave it out of your lists. If you're running a serious deepstrike list you'll find that most often the deepstriking units won't be getting the +1 to hit. You also won't often be running battlemages now that they're 110 points, so that's a +1 to cast it's only giving to itself. Most of the times it's giving the +1 to hit to a big block of battleline it's hiding behind, in my case I prefer playing with Eternal Guard, who already are on 2+ to hit when not moving, so that's a waste. In my lists it usually ends up being a 3D3 mortal wound cannon with a cast in the hero phase. There are better ways to spend 280 points.
  Next to the Hurricanum auto include you often see Knight-Azyros taken as well. He's generally quite useful in my lists as with his 12" move and small base it's easy for him to keep up, he's also easier to position because he has to shine his light on the enemy, instead of keeping friendlies within range. He's also a good candidate to join deepstrikes because you can set him up with enemies within lantern range and you can use him to cast the Strike then Melt Away from.

I originally came here to spew the 4 Luminark idea but it somehow turned into this essay... I'm going to continue playing Living City until Sylvaneth gets a proper book so I'll no doubt be back with updated findings at some point. Next up on the menu is testing out the phoenixes and I'm currently building 3 Gyrocopters to do a deepstrike+bombing run and see if they stay alive long enough to get use out of their steam guns. Learning about Living City continues!

Thanks if you made it all this way! The sheer unit variety in the book must make for some wildly different experiences among players, I'd love to hear yours.

Cheers,

[Aelfric]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

The azyros rr 1s means you get more chances to roll 6s.

Sisters do MW on a "Wound" roll of 6, not hit roll, so RR1 will not affect MW output.  Just got hold of my Azyros, so still think it's a good choice nonetheless.

[martinwolf]

On 1/7/2021 at 11:39 PM, Kiekeboe said:

Ok hear me out. Thinking outside the box here. Living City is the only army where you can deepstrike a Luminark of Hysh. What about a list with 4 Luminarks ^{(buying/painting these makes me uncomfortable, but that's besides the point)} where you put all 4 in reserve -> deploy them alongside your opponent in your first turn -> unleash hellfire along 30" lines basically obliterating whatever you want. You still have 1000 points spare to form something of a backup plan or second wave. Or use those points to add insult to injury by adding a Celestant Prime to take out what's left standing for example.

Would this win games? Or is just a bit too gimmicky? I'm sure it won't make you any new friends but as I said, thinking out loud here. Would certainly turn heads if you bring it to a tournament.

 

Unrelated to Luminarks: I've been playing a ton of Living City over the past few months and would like to post my findings. I've gotten loads of really useful info from this forum/thread so I'd love to give some back. (Keep in mind, all of it is anecdotal, it's just what I've experienced in ~15+ games testing different lists)

• Drakesworn templar, while expensive, has a place in specific lists in Living City. As a general with a 2+ save because of Ironoak Artisan he can be a real nuisance for opponents who lack mortal wounds. Throw him in a flank where he can occupy a chunk of your opponents army and they'll spend 2-3 turns getting rid of it while you score objectives elsewhere. His damage profiles are terrible, don't ever fight 1 on 1 (monster)battles with him. His bite is great, my most recent game I played against a unit of 6 Varanguard where he survived their double activation and then ate the middle one, breaking coherency causing the opponent to have to sacrifice half of the unit.
  Also plays well with a unit of 4 fulminators/concussors, situationally giving them +1 to hit.
• Living City is hands down the best place for Sisters of the Watch. While it's true that 20 irondrakes with a runelord deal equal or just a bit more damage, the dwarves just require way more setup and a move or bridge to get them where you want them. Deepstriking units of 10 sisters and taking out key targets is extremely useful. When my main deepstrike comes down on let's say the right side of the board, I just love plopping down 10 sisters on the other end of the board. The opponent has to send something over to deal with them while they're also dealing with your big deepstrike. Meanwhile you're also moving your main anvil up the board to start scoring points.
• Don't feel bad for not using the deepstrike. Yes this is a defining features of Living City but a poor deepstrike can leave your army out of position and immediately lose the game. I started out with lots of Durthu games because in Living City he's a god (ironoak artisan + spear of the hunt) where in Sylvaneth he's just mediocre to poor now that ghyrstrike is gone. I would deepstrike him with 4 concussors and shoot+move+charge everyone in. This would destroy whatever they landed in but Durthu would just spend the next 3 turns walking to his next target, wasting his potential because he's just so damn slow and had to start his journey at a table edge and enemies just stay away from him. 
• My best performing armies generally consist of 3 main forces. First is a strong anvil backline (things like 6 kurnoths/30 Eternal Guard/20 Phoenix Guard) that protects your wizards/hurricanum/squishies. Second is a main deepstriking force consisting of a strong leader unit with a shooting profile (Durthu/Drakesworn templar) on ironoak artisan/spear of the hunt and supported by another unit that can shoot and fight well in melee like Concussors. And third are my filler deepstrikers like MSU sisters of the watch, shadow warriors, Celestant Prime, or other things that drop down and mainly cause a distraction that has to be dealt with. Having a strategy like this in mind really helps with list building because we all know how complex list building can get with all the options the Cities book gives us. 
• Strike then Melt Away is brilliant, but very situational, and has to be kept in mind when list building. Let's say you're going for a strategy with a strong deepstriking general, this means you're forfeiting General+Adjutant command points. Which also means you can buy the one CP and you're down to 1 per turn after that. If you're doing the Templar+Concussors deepstrike for example, you're burning both your CP in turn 1 to guarantee the charges/positioning so you better pray that your unit of 30 EG isn't in need of a battleshock skip. Strike then Melt Away is a wonderful tool for an initial alpha strike but it's also a great way to burn your CP and hurt yourself later on. Use with caution. For example on an Alarielle to zoom her 32" across the board, dropping 20 dryads midway and charging some big unit on the other side of the field, they won't see it coming.
• People say that Hurricanum in a cities army is an auto include. I can see why because a +1 to hit bubble, +1 to cast ^{(to battlemages)}, and a 3D3 mw ranged attack is nothing to scoff at, but at 280 points you can - depending on your game plan - absolutely leave it out of your lists. If you're running a serious deepstrike list you'll find that most often the deepstriking units won't be getting the +1 to hit. You also won't often be running battlemages now that they're 110 points, so that's a +1 to cast it's only giving to itself. Most of the times it's giving the +1 to hit to a big block of battleline it's hiding behind, in my case I prefer playing with Eternal Guard, who already are on 2+ to hit when not moving, so that's a waste. In my lists it usually ends up being a 3D3 mortal wound cannon with a cast in the hero phase. There are better ways to spend 280 points.
  Next to the Hurricanum auto include you often see Knight-Azyros taken as well. He's generally quite useful in my lists as with his 12" move and small base it's easy for him to keep up, he's also easier to position because he has to shine his light on the enemy, instead of keeping friendlies within range. He's also a good candidate to join deepstrikes because you can set him up with enemies within lantern range and you can use him to cast the Strike then Melt Away from.

I originally came here to spew the 4 Luminark idea but it somehow turned into this essay... I'm going to continue playing Living City until Sylvaneth gets a proper book so I'll no doubt be back with updated findings at some point. Next up on the menu is testing out the phoenixes and I'm currently building 3 Gyrocopters to do a deepstrike+bombing run and see if they stay alive long enough to get use out of their steam guns. Learning about Living City continues!

Thanks if you made it all this way! The sheer unit variety in the book must make for some wildly different experiences among players, I'd love to hear yours.

Cheers,

Thank you a lot for your "essay".  I read it all and am agreeing with a lot. I play Living City a lot too and mostly with Wanderers and Sylvaneth units + a Knight Azyros. In my last game I played with two of them because they are so cheap, fast and provide so much to every part of my army. And he isn't super easy to kill and against Chaos he as good output with the lantern as well. Not sure if I will continue to play with two, but it's definitely worth a try. I've played with a big block of 20 Sisters of the Watch most of the time with 10 oder 20 Shadow Warriors for deep strike support anywhere on the table but it seems to me Shadow Warriors are better in theory than in practice. So I tried out more Sisters, one big block and multiple small 10s. Was a cool skirmishy playstyle.  my comment is a bit all over the place.  Looking forward to hear more from you. If you want to share good performing lists I would like that a lot.

[Cambot1231]

Do you guys run Knight Azyros with sword or Bow?

[martinwolf]

50 minutes ago, Cambot1231 said:

Do you guys run Knight Azyros with sword or Bow?

These are different heros/warscrolls, the one with the Bow is the Knight-Venator, he doesn't provide the reroll 1s to hit. He is more of a once per game do damage kind of guy.

[Stormlight]

On 1/7/2021 at 2:39 PM, Kiekeboe said:

Ok hear me out. Thinking outside the box here. Living City is the only army where you can deepstrike a Luminark of Hysh. What about a list with 4 Luminarks ^{(buying/painting these makes me uncomfortable, but that's besides the point)} where you put all 4 in reserve -> deploy them alongside your opponent in your first turn -> unleash hellfire along 30" lines basically obliterating whatever you want. You still have 1000 points spare to form something of a backup plan or second wave. Or use those points to add insult to injury by adding a Celestant Prime to take out what's left standing for example.

Would this win games? Or is just a bit too gimmicky? I'm sure it won't make you any new friends but as I said, thinking out loud here. Would certainly turn heads if you bring it to a tournament.

I think there is some real potential here. If you deepstrike two Luminarks on each table edge, you should be able to catch every enemy unit with the Searing Beams of Light. Then, if you deploy a solid core in the middle of the table with some ranged units, you've created a "triangle of death" where the enemy either has to split their force or face attacks from their flanks. My choices for the 1000 non-Luminark points would be Freeguild focused. Something like:

• Pistoliers: The perfect mobile harassing unit. If your opponent starts moving towards your Luminarks then you can pepper them with pistol fire from behind.
• Greatswords: Take a Freeguild General to make them battleline and slice up whatever is left after your Shooting phase.
• Demigryph Knights: Normally, you have to be careful with these guys because they can get stuck in combat and lose the charging benefit of the lances. But if you've soften up any enemy unit with your Beams, that shouldn't be an issue.

I'm sure there are other excellent choices as well. I love Cities of Sigmar precisely because we have so many options. 

For reference, 1000 points is 1.5 Teclis's or 60 sisters of the watch. I'm concerned the Luminarks may not be able to deal enough damage for their cost. A savvy opponent can maneuver their force in such a way that each Beam can only cross one unit at a time. Although, such maneuvering may disrupt the synergy of your opponent's army.  Folks may not catch on quickly enough during a single tournament, but they'd probably be ready the next time.

On 1/7/2021 at 2:39 PM, Kiekeboe said:

 

Strike then Melt Away is brilliant, but very situational, and has to be kept in mind when list building. Let's say you're going for a strategy with a strong deepstriking general, this means you're forfeiting General+Adjutant command points. Which also means you can buy the one CP and you're down to 1 per turn after that. If you're doing the Templar+Concussors deepstrike for example, you're burning both your CP in turn 1 to guarantee the charges/positioning so you better pray that your unit of 30 EG isn't in need of a battleshock skip. Strike then Melt Away is a wonderful tool for an initial alpha strike but it's also a great way to burn your CP and hurt yourself later on. Use with caution. For example on an Alarielle to zoom her 32" across the board, dropping 20 dryads midway and charging some big unit on the other side of the field, they won't see it coming.

I've been meaning to ask veteran players about Command Points and Cities of Sigmar. General's adjutant makes sense lore-wise, but it seems like a trap to me. You have to take a squishy general and adjutant and keep them within 3" of each other just for a 50% chance of an extra command point. This might be fine in some cities, but it seems to clash heavily with the tactics of the Living City.

If you choose a Nomad Prince as your general to unlock Sisters as battleline then you may want to deepstrike the NP for the Strike then Melt-Away or Lord of the Deepwood Host command abilities. If you choose Durthu as your general for the Ironoak Artisan buff, then you can't use the adjutant ability at all.

To me, the only viable way to access the adjutant ability is to select a Nomad Prince as the General and a Sorceress as the adjutant. Which means, you're using the NP as a 120 point battleline "unlocker" and essentially wasting the command trait.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I'd love some other opinions.

 

21 hours ago, martinwolf said:

These are different heros/warscrolls, the one with the Bow is the Knight-Venator, he doesn't provide the reroll 1s to hit. He is more of a once per game do damage kind of guy.

 

The Knight-Venator seems to be a big waste of points. 110 points for a once per game chance to do d3 + 3 (or d6 +3 for heros or monsters) damage? And that chance isn't even high: it's 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound, rend 1. Which is probably a sub-50% chance against most units.

[Kiekeboe]

21 hours ago, Stormlight said:

If you choose a Nomad Prince as your general to unlock Sisters as battleline then you may want to deepstrike the NP for the Strike then Melt-Away or Lord of the Deepwood Host command abilities. If you choose Durthu as your general for the Ironoak Artisan buff, then you can't use the adjutant ability at all.

To me, the only viable way to access the adjutant ability is to select a Nomad Prince as the General and a Sorceress as the adjutant. Which means, you're using the NP as a 120 point battleline "unlocker" and essentially wasting the command trait.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I'd love some other opinions.

Yep, I agree. I haven't been able to get any real value out of Nomad Prince lists. The thing with unlocking Sisters as battleline is... you still need actual blocks of battleline, or screens at the very least. You'll still bring your Eternal/Phoenix/Freeguild Guard or some Ironbreakers to have some objective presence as your sisters are going to be deepstriking. So why make the Sisters battleline in the first place?
The second downside of a Nomad Prince general is that you're giving up a wonderful command trait in Ironoak Artisan, which has the ability to put some mediocre behemoths in the near-god-tier. 
In return you get CP on a 4+. After the initial deepstrike -> strike and melt away you rarely need extra CP because your best candidates for it are going to be in combat. Sure it's nice to use a CP for reroll 1's in combat or skip the occasional battleshock but you can really do without the one beyond your 1 per turn.

I think including a Nomad Prince means you're not playing Living City to its full potential, you're giving up power somewhere with nothing in return.

[martinwolf]

With mostly having played the Nomad Prince as general I sadly have to agree. I did it because I didn't really have another great monster hero and wanted to play as many Wanderers as possible. But I think command points are really a problem because the battalion isn't really good or at least doesn't really play into the whole deepstrike shooting playstyle, which is a shame. So you are stuck with only buying a CP and that's it for the whole game. Maybe it's just me, but I actually do use the strike and melt away ability a lot, even for normal units. I like it to much a 20 woman block of Sisters of the Watch for example so they can sit still the next turn and fire at full capacity. It also helps to get away from the table edges and onto objectives, if they are relative close to the outer parts of the table. And it's always good to have a spare CP for an important inspiring presence. Sure, adjutant is only 50/50 chance each turn, but at least it's something. Don't know. For me it feels bad wasting the cities abilities, but it also feels bad to have these amazing CT and Artefact on the Nomad Prince, who then doesn't die, but also doesn't really do damage. 120pts is also not cheap. His CA is actually pretty amazing because it's a bubble not a "target one unit" ability, but then again I feel like going from 3+ to hit to 2+ to hit with the Sisters is not suuuuch a big difference, especially if you already have the Azyros nearby for rerolling 1s to hit. If you have him close to your more traditional battleline like Eternal Guard, you actually almost never need the CA because you want to stand still and not pile in with the EG anyway because of their buffs and then they already hit on 2s. Sometimes I run a 20 block of Wildwood Rangers and have them hitting on 2s and maybe get the NP in combat at the same time so both benefit from the +1 to hit.

A lot of rambling, sorry. It's difficult. I really really really miss a Wanderers/Wood Elf archer hero. I wish they would have kept at least the Waywatcher hero. Loved them loads.

[Stormlight]

 

6 hours ago, Kiekeboe said:

Yep, I agree. I haven't been able to get any real value out of Nomad Prince lists. The thing with unlocking Sisters as battleline is... you still need actual blocks of battleline, or screens at the very least. You'll still bring your Eternal/Phoenix/Freeguild Guard or some Ironbreakers to have some objective presence as your sisters are going to be deepstriking. So why make the Sisters battleline in the first place?
The second downside of a Nomad Prince general is that you're giving up a wonderful command trait in Ironoak Artisan, which has the ability to put some mediocre behemoths in the near-god-tier. 
In return you get CP on a 4+. After the initial deepstrike -> strike and melt away you rarely need extra CP because your best candidates for it are going to be in combat. Sure it's nice to use a CP for reroll 1's in combat or skip the occasional battleshock but you can really do without the one beyond your 1 per turn.

I think including a Nomad Prince means you're not playing Living City to its full potential, you're giving up power somewhere with nothing in return.

@martinwolf I think @Kiekeboe says it best. Sure it's awesome to use Strike then Melt Away as many times as possible, but by going the adjutant route you're giving up a huge advantage. It's a shame that the Living City command traits clash with the allegiance abilities of Cities of Sigmar. A 50% chance at an extra command point per turn is nice, and so is the honored retinue save, but the only viable LC command trait (Ironoak Artisan) is maximally effective when applied to a behemoth general. I guess we can't have our cake and eat it too. Don't even get me started on the battalion. It has to be the worst battalion in the book: 3+ units of glass cannons that are only good against monsters? No thanks.

Making Sisters battleline is helpful for the few GHB2020 scenarios where battleline units score extra victory points. But the chance of those scenarios coming up out of the 18 options is low. The lists I've proposed before have all been 1000 points so I need the Sisters as battleline and thus have to take a Nomad Prince.

I'm really glad we're having a lively discussion about the nature of the Living City and what types of choices are optimal. Given our discussion around the Nomad Prince, I think it would be advantageous to debate the best options for the general and the battleline units. For example, is a Sylvaneth behemoth the best choice for a general? If so, is Drycha or Durthu better? Or maybe we want to take an Annointed on Frostheart?  And for battleline, do we want a core of shooty Freeguild units? Or tankier blocks of Eternal Guard or Phoenix Guard? 10 Darkshards and a Sorceress seems like a power pair that fills out one battleline slot.

Who knows, if we keep this conversation up long enough we might even create an optimal 2000 pts. GHB2020 list.

[The Red King]

Well Ironoak artisan is imo best applied to 4 potential units for a supremely tanky general.

Either phoenix variant who can get up to a 2+ save with a caster nearby and obviously also enjoy wounding on 2s without a doubt but don't really benefit from being in a living cities list at all with no strike and melt and no real emphasis on magic.

Drakesworn templar and lord-celestant are both great targets sure with an unconditional 2+ save and generally everybody likes to wound on 2s but these are what 480-500 points and aren't just casually in contention for the behemoth slot in any given list.

Drycha and Durthu are both named characters who can't take traits I'm pretty sure. Treelord ancient isn't someone you want in combat even with those buffs and a dreadlord on black dragon which is my personal favorite vote is just kind of bad from a competitive standpoint and even if he isn't it isn't because of his wound rolls but his hit rolls.

 

When I bring a Nomad Prince it's part because I love his model, part because for a CP he's a much cheaper hurricanum buff and mostly to take advantage of him and his adjutant (knight azyros) can happily pop up together with a block of sisters and turn something important into paste and then start potentially providing CP that I consider a premium in cities list. The battleline unlocking is just icing imo. Personally since I want to deep strike my dragon and maybe 4 fulminators  I just throw the Everspring druid trait on and he can cast lifesurge on those high wound units or possibly summon soulsnare shackles to keep the enemy back from my sisters or cause them to come in piecemail though honestly the shackles are a matter of having 40 extra points and may be better off as shards of valaghar.

 

All in all I don't think any of our behemoths short of build around monsters like the stormcast dragon benefit enough from ironoak artisan to justify losing retinue and adjutant.

[Doko]

Durthu isnt named,you can equip him items etc