Stormlight

I think you're right. Fulminators that can retreat and charge would be devastating in the right circumstances. However, an Azyros is more reliable and also frees up the Nomad Prince to start on the board if necessary. Thanks!

Would love to get some thoughts on this Wanderer-themed core. Basic strategy is a death star bubble of Eternal Guard protected by the Luminark and Sisters of the Thorn that will run up and sit on an objective all game. With the Luminark buff, Pha's Protection, and Armor of the Thorns, the Eternal Guard are -1 to hit on a 2+ armor/6+ FNP that can bounce back wounds. With the horde discount, Eternal Guard are priced fairly at 11 points/model. Meanwhile the Nomad Prince and Sisters of the Watch ambush on one flank with +1 to hit from the Prince's command ability. Simultaneously, the Heraldor and Fulminators can ambush with the ability to retreat and charge. It's a basic strategy of one big anvil and two mobile hammers. I'm not going for top-tier competitive, but it seems fun! Not sure what to spend the other 240 points on. Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Living CityMortal Realm: GhyranNomad Prince (120)- General- Command Trait: Ironoak ArtisanLuminark of Hysh with White Battlemage (270)- Artefact: Everspring Diadem- Lore of Leaves: LifesurgeKnight-Heraldor (100)30 x Eternal Guard (330)20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)- Lore of Leaves: Cage of Thorns4 x Fulminators (440)Extra Command Point (50)Total: 1760 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 101

In Statshammer you can set the damage of Claws and Fangs to 1 and add the conditional bonus "unmodified rolls of 6 for to wound result in a bonus of d6-1 to damage". Yes you can. There's nothing inherently wrong about a block of 30 sisters, you just have to screen them well. Ambushing them on boards with lots of terrain can also be challenging. Well said. It's nice to have both options available to us in Living City lists. Plus the Broken Realms box is a nice way to cheaply purchase the Dragon and some Dark Elf infantry.

When shooting and charging, two Fulminators will deal ~10 average wounds. Per the chart below, four Fulminators = ~21 wounds, six Fulminators = ~32 wounds. You're probably safe with four at 440 points, instead of six at 660 points. The latter will be hard to ambush and charge in such a way that they can all attack. Six dracothian bases take up a lot of room. Also, a smart opponent will gum you up with cheap screens when your hammer is worth 2/3 of your points. I would keep the Dreadlord, especially if you prefer the "cool" factor. It combos well with the spear. Your opponent has to respect the flying, strikes-first monster with a maximum charge of 36" (12" base + 12" for strike then melt away + 12" max charge). Are you ambushing the sisters? A block of 20 will delete most enemy units, so you could shave 10 off the squad of 30 and save 160 points. Perhaps to change the 10 dreadspears to 20 darkshards and buy the command point? It's nice to have shooting on the board and the hidden paths. Your opponent has to make some tough choices when they are facing 40 shots on each side of the table

I don't think it would be competitive and it probably wouldn't be as good as the Anvilguard version, but it would certainly be fun! Drycha + Dark Riders + Kharibdyss + Freeguild General on Griffon. Takes full advantage of the Living City free heal. Unfortunately, no battleline monsters and Drycha was nerfed slightly in the winter FAQ. I love it! Is it the most competitive list you can build? No, but it's a thematically-appropriate Living City list with all the right pieces. Don't ever feel bad for taking Aetherwings if you have a free slot. 40 points for a flying, six wound unit that can screen? Yes please. You can fly them up to take an objective on turn one and score some free points before they die. Not bad at all. I'm not the biggest fan of Sisters of the Thorn, though. The Emerald Lifeswarm would be slightly easier to cast with a Sorceress + 10 darkshards to stab, so maybe remove the Copter and the Sisters of the Thorn to free up those points? Or swap the Sisters of the Thorn for an allied IDK Shark with the new net launcher rule? Preventing your opponent from piling in would keep your EG alive. The best part about Cities of Sigmar is that we have a plethora of choices!

Matthew, the MiniWarGaming guy who plays Cities of Sigmar, admits his goal is to lean into each city's theme and build a "casually competitive" list. Of course you have to take recommendations and choices of a for-entertainment battle report with a grain of salt, since no one wants to watch a one-sided game. I take the fact he chose Concussors, Durthu, and a Treelord Ancient as proof they are at least moderately competitive. I wish he would have chosen additional Wanderers too. I'm pretty sure I'll be taking 20-40 SotW in my lists. They are too good not too. Like you said, there's a difference between the competitive and WAAC mindsets. Shooting can be annoying to play against (I still have PTSD from the Empire gunlines of old Warhammer Fantasy Battle), but there are plenty of ways to play around it nowadays. Except maybe the new LRL Sentinels, which seem insane. I'm more worried about the cost and hobby fatigue of building and painting lots of Sisters! With so many unit choices at our disposal, it's hard to have a nuanced opinion about everything. Im grateful we have this space to discuss less mainstream choices. Getting back to our discussion around Generals and list building, maybe we can collectively build two lists? One where we try and make the most competitive list possible for tournaments, and one where we build a casually competitive list for a friendly night of gaming. I'm still torn on whether the General should be a melee behemoth with a shooting attack, or whether we should take a cheap foot commander and spend the point elsewhere.

MiniWarGaming has a Living City vs Blades of Khorne report with a list containing Concussors. The list also has Durthu and a Treelord Ancient for the same strategy @Zeblasky was proposing.

Now that I've read through the Stormcast book and the Cities of Sigmar book, I have to say I'm very impressed by the Dracothian Guard. The melee variants with Storm Blast (Concussors, Desolators, Fulminators) seem like an auto-include in the Living City. Out of all of the units that can be set up in the Hidden Paths AND use Strike then Melt Away, Dracothian Guard are the most efficient melee damage dealers point-for-point. 2 Concussors, not charging, deal roughly the same average wounds (~10) as a Dreadlord on Black Dragon with Lance of Spite WHEN it is charging. They even have a better save and cost 80 points less. Maybe it's not necessary to take any of the choices for General that I have been mathhammering. Maybe it's better to save your points for a deepstriking force of Concussors (or whatever flavor of Dracothian Guard you prefer), some Sisters of the Watch, and a cheap hero (or maybe a Hurricanum) to use the command ability. Squeezing the maximum utility out of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt is a worthy objective, but so is maximizing the effectiveness of your army on a point-by-point basis. I'll need to think some more on this.

@Zeblasky makes some great points. Its important to keep in mind that the design of the Living City ruleset seems to push two distinct concepts: Sneaky ambushes with the Hidden Paths which can be one of two varieties: Overwhelming shooting that obliterates an entire unit(s) therefore immediately recovering your points investment. It doesn't matter if your opponent minces a block of Sisters of the Watch in combat if the Sisters have already removed a comparable number of points from your opponent. If you set up your ambush optimally, your opponent may not even be able to counterattack. As said previously, however, you won't make friends spamming Sisters and if you rely too heavily on them you may find yourself hard-countered by certain armies. Ambush charges with Strike then Melt Away from heavy hitting units with a missile attack like Durthu, Dracothian Guard, etc... Ideally, you can screen your ambush shooting units with your ambush charging units such that the shooting units are protected from counterattacks and do not need to use Strike then Melt Away themselves. This is a CP-intensive strategy which is unfortunate because CP are at a premium in the Living City. Multi-wound models to maximize the benefit of Attuned to Nature which is a powerful passive ability. If your units have multiple wounds you force your opponent to over-concentrate their damage output. It's not clear in what ratio these two concepts can be optimally leveraged. For example, you could go all-in on Attuned to Nature by only selecting multiwound units (which is possible with the battleline unlocks from certain generals). Alternatively, you could go all-in on ambushing by only starting with cheap and/or mobile MSU on the table (Aetherwings, Tree-Revenants, Freeguild Guard, etc..) and ambushing all of your expensive heavy-hitters. Any unit selection that does not fulfill one or both of the previously discussed concepts seems sub-optimal. I don't have enough experience with this army yet to know how I can maximize the strengths of the Living City and minimize the weaknesses. I have some basic intuitions like, for example, Dracothian Guard seem like a must-pick because they combine both of the advantages of the LC. Also, Durthu seems like a good choice for a General because it maximizes the utility of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt (compared to, say the Dreadlord whose damage primarily comes from the mount). The Drakesworn Templar is a more consistent (and expensive) option for a General, but taking Durthu preserves your precious Stormcast slots: Aetherwings are a steal for 40 points, Concussors are an excellent ambushing candidate, and the buff of the Knight Azyros is incredible.

I'll admit my method may be overkill. As you increase the importance of points cost, the Dreadlord overtakes the Drakesworn Templar. My formula doesn't account for bracketing, either. Durthu is incredibly vulnerable to damage. Once bracketed (3 wounds), it becomes considerably worse than the other bracketed top candidates (Dreadlord, Drakesworn). The Drakesworn has the highest resistance to bracketing: it can take up to 8 wounds and only lose 1" movement and 1 Cavernous Jaw attack. The Drakesworn may not be worth its 420 points. For 120 more points than Durthu or a Dreadlord you get higher and more reliable damage output (about 2 extra wounds per turn compared to the Dreadlord). You also receive the situational Dracothian Guard, and Arcane Lineage buffs. But that 120 points can go a long way (a Sorceress with some leftover points, most of a Sisters of the Watch unit, etc...) You can ambush all three of the top General choices since they have shooting attacks. If necessary, the Drakesworn and Dreadlord can also start on the table. Because of its vulnerability to bracketing, I think Durthu HAS to start in the hidden paths. If you know the Dreadlord is starting on the table I would use the shield instead of the crossbow, like you said. If you want to start with your General on the table I would personally lean more towards the Freeguild General on Griffon with the Sigmarite Runesword. It's Command Ability and Battleline unlocks are better than the Dreadlord.

Let me see if I can find the best general with some MathHammer. Problem statement: Assign each combat-focused, non-unique, Living City General with a score from 0-100, reflecting its overall utility when buffed with Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt. Motivation: Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt are arguably the best Living City Command Trait and Artefact pair. As Living City players, we would like to maximize their benefit. Terminology: By 'buffed,' I mean the +1 to wound rolls, and -1 rend from Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt. Note that the +1 to wound from Ironak Artisan is applied to all of the General's melee weapons. The -1 rend from Spear of the Hunt is applied to a single weapon. Neither bonus affects the General's mount (if they have one). By 'average wounds dealt', I mean the average of wounds dealt to enemy units across all save values. Assumptions For monsters, I will use the numbers from the top damage bracket. Since this is Living City, I expect the Attuned to Nature ability and Lifesurge spell will keep your monsters healthy. When calculating damage output, I include all melee and missile attacks for both the rider and the mount. If the model has other damage dealing abilities, I will estimate the average number of wounds. These calculations are only for damage-dealing combat potential. I will not factor in defensive ability. The calculations are normalized and depend on the Generals included in the computation. I will assume the General is charging for weapons that benefit from charging. Methodology: I will normalize (compress to a score between 0 and 1 using the minimum and maximum possible values) and linearly interpolate (assign each factor a weight between 0 and 1 such that all weight sum to 1) the following factors: Average wounds dealt per turn when buffed Calculation: I will enter each General's profile into AoS Statshammer (with the Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt buffs) and take the average damage output across all opponent save values. Justification: The whole point of taking Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt is to create a combat-focused General that can punch through units. Interpolation weight: This factor is worth 40% of the total score. Average standard deviation of wounds dealt per turn Calculation: I will enter each General's profile into AoS Statshammer (with the Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt buffs) and take the average standard deviation of damage output across all opponent save values.Then I will take 1 - the normalized value (lower deviation is better). Justification: Some people do not like taking 'swingy' units whose potential depends on how well you are rolling. The average calculations I am using mitigate this somewhat, but units with low attacks and high damage like Durthu will inevitably have 0 damage or 18 damage turns. RNG is part of the fun of Warhammer, but you may want a more reliable general if you're competitively-focused. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 10% of the total score. Overall combat benefit of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt Calculation: I will subtract the average damage output across all opponents save values for the General when buffed from the same quantity when unbuffed. Justification: As a Living City player, you should choose a general whose combat potential is maximized by these buffs. It doesn't make sense to put the buffs on a unit whose mount does the most damage. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 20% of the total score. Mobility Calculation: I will select from one of the following fixed values: If the model has 0-4" movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0. If the model has 4.01-6" movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0.1. If the model has 6.01-10" of movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away OR if the model has 0-6" movement and can benefit, it will receive a mobility score of 0.4 If the model has 10.01-12" of movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0.5 If the model has more than 12" of movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away OR if the model has 6.01-10" movement and can benefit, it will receive a mobility score of 0.6. If the model has 10.01-12" of movement and can benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0.8 If the model has 12+" of movement and can benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 1 Justification: Your General cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away if it does not have a missile weapon. As such, Generals without missile attacks will probably start on the table where they will need a high movement value to reach the enemy and start dealing damage. On the other hand, a General with a missile weapon but low movement (like Durthu) may have to burn Command Points to move across the board after deepstriking. Therefore, this category's highest score goes to fast Generals with missile weapons. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 20% of the total score. Points cost Calculation: 1 - the normalized points cost. E.g., the cheapest possible General will have a score of 1 and the most expensive will have a score of 0. Justification: All things considered, a General needs to be worth its points value. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 10% of the total score. Model Specific Notes: Drakesworn Templar: I will estimate the damage of Lord of the Heavens using the Rain of Stars option and assume Cavernous Jaws is used against models with 1 wound. I can't reliably estimate the damage of Sweeping Tail. I have to assume the Stormlance is not used against a monster. Dreadlord on Black Dragon: I can't reliably estimate the damage of Noxious Breath. Flamespyre Phoenix: I am not adding the damage from Wake of Fire Now, the table for all Cities of Sigmar Generals, Durthu, and the Drakesworn Templar: Conclusion: Clearly, Durthu is the best choice for a general. If you are concerned about Durthu's mobility or think it is too swingy, take the Drakesworn Templar. If you are worried about both choices (e.g., you don't want to pay 420 points for the Drakesworn), take the Dreadlord on Black Dragon with Lance and Crossbow. Interestingly, the Warden King and Assassins are the best foot Generals, with the Freeguild General and Nomad Prince close behind. I may add the other Stormcast Eternal choices when the battletome I ordered arrives at the end of this week. What do you think about my approach and choices for each factor's weight?

I messed up by including Drycha in the potential combat-focused Behemoth Generals list. She is unique but, like @Doko said, Durthu can take traits and artifacts. So the list of combat-focused Behemoth Generals that can maximize the combined potential of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt are: Durthu Freeguild General on Griffon (who was featured in AOSCoach's Living City spotlight video) Dreadlord on Black Dragon Annointed on Phoenix Drakesworn Templar Lord-Celestant on Stardrake Out of those options, the Freeguild General cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away. Does the Lord-Celestant's "Lord of the Heavens" ability count as shooting?

@martinwolf I think @Kiekeboe says it best. Sure it's awesome to use Strike then Melt Away as many times as possible, but by going the adjutant route you're giving up a huge advantage. It's a shame that the Living City command traits clash with the allegiance abilities of Cities of Sigmar. A 50% chance at an extra command point per turn is nice, and so is the honored retinue save, but the only viable LC command trait (Ironoak Artisan) is maximally effective when applied to a behemoth general. I guess we can't have our cake and eat it too. Don't even get me started on the battalion. It has to be the worst battalion in the book: 3+ units of glass cannons that are only good against monsters? No thanks. Making Sisters battleline is helpful for the few GHB2020 scenarios where battleline units score extra victory points. But the chance of those scenarios coming up out of the 18 options is low. The lists I've proposed before have all been 1000 points so I need the Sisters as battleline and thus have to take a Nomad Prince. I'm really glad we're having a lively discussion about the nature of the Living City and what types of choices are optimal. Given our discussion around the Nomad Prince, I think it would be advantageous to debate the best options for the general and the battleline units. For example, is a Sylvaneth behemoth the best choice for a general? If so, is Drycha or Durthu better? Or maybe we want to take an Annointed on Frostheart? And for battleline, do we want a core of shooty Freeguild units? Or tankier blocks of Eternal Guard or Phoenix Guard? 10 Darkshards and a Sorceress seems like a power pair that fills out one battleline slot. Who knows, if we keep this conversation up long enough we might even create an optimal 2000 pts. GHB2020 list.

I think there is some real potential here. If you deepstrike two Luminarks on each table edge, you should be able to catch every enemy unit with the Searing Beams of Light. Then, if you deploy a solid core in the middle of the table with some ranged units, you've created a "triangle of death" where the enemy either has to split their force or face attacks from their flanks. My choices for the 1000 non-Luminark points would be Freeguild focused. Something like: Pistoliers: The perfect mobile harassing unit. If your opponent starts moving towards your Luminarks then you can pepper them with pistol fire from behind. Greatswords: Take a Freeguild General to make them battleline and slice up whatever is left after your Shooting phase. Demigryph Knights: Normally, you have to be careful with these guys because they can get stuck in combat and lose the charging benefit of the lances. But if you've soften up any enemy unit with your Beams, that shouldn't be an issue. I'm sure there are other excellent choices as well. I love Cities of Sigmar precisely because we have so many options. For reference, 1000 points is 1.5 Teclis's or 60 sisters of the watch. I'm concerned the Luminarks may not be able to deal enough damage for their cost. A savvy opponent can maneuver their force in such a way that each Beam can only cross one unit at a time. Although, such maneuvering may disrupt the synergy of your opponent's army. Folks may not catch on quickly enough during a single tournament, but they'd probably be ready the next time. I've been meaning to ask veteran players about Command Points and Cities of Sigmar. General's adjutant makes sense lore-wise, but it seems like a trap to me. You have to take a squishy general and adjutant and keep them within 3" of each other just for a 50% chance of an extra command point. This might be fine in some cities, but it seems to clash heavily with the tactics of the Living City. If you choose a Nomad Prince as your general to unlock Sisters as battleline then you may want to deepstrike the NP for the Strike then Melt-Away or Lord of the Deepwood Host command abilities. If you choose Durthu as your general for the Ironoak Artisan buff, then you can't use the adjutant ability at all. To me, the only viable way to access the adjutant ability is to select a Nomad Prince as the General and a Sorceress as the adjutant. Which means, you're using the NP as a 120 point battleline "unlocker" and essentially wasting the command trait. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I'd love some other opinions. The Knight-Venator seems to be a big waste of points. 110 points for a once per game chance to do d3 + 3 (or d6 +3 for heros or monsters) damage? And that chance isn't even high: it's 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound, rend 1. Which is probably a sub-50% chance against most units.

Let's look at the math (AoS Statshammer): Assuming two attacks each, an unbuffed unit of ten Sisters of the Watch will inflict the following damage on an enemy unit: 2+ save: 3.89 wounds 3+ save: 5.44 wounds 4+ save: 7 wounds 5+ save: 8.56 wounds 6+ save: 10.11 wounds No save: 11.67 wounds With just the Azyros (re-roll hit rolls of 1): 2+ save: 4.54 wounds 3+ save: 6.35 wounds 4+ save: 8.17 wounds 5+ save: 9.98 wounds 6+ save: 11.8 wounds No save: 13.61 wounds With just the Nomad Prince (+1 to hit): 2+ save: 4.86 wounds 3+ save: 6.81 wounds 4+ save: 8.75 wounds 5+ save: 10.69 wounds 6+ save: 12.64 wounds No save: 14.58 wounds With both buffs: 2+ save: 5.67 wounds 3+ save: 7.94 wounds 4+ save: 10.21 wounds 5+ save: 12.48 wounds 6+ save: 14.75 wounds No save: 17.01 wounds So, more or less, the Azyros will yield an extra wound or two per for every ten sisters. But it's not strictly necessary. Qualitatively, I like the Azyros for a few reasons: It's re-roll hit rolls of 1 aura is more scalable than the Nomad Prince's Lord of the Deepwood Host command ability. It does not cost a command point, and it's only limited by how many enemy units are within 10" the Azyros, rather than how many units of Sisters are wholly within 12" of the NP. There's a big difference between "within" and "wholly within". It synergizes well with the general strategy of a Living City army. It can fly around the board to support your units as necessary, whether they start on or off the table. It's a threat piece that you can use as a trap. Your opponent will overestimate the value of the Azyros and try and kill it ASAP, meaning they may leave your other units alone. Additionally, you can try and bait enemy units away from the table edge to open up more room for your Hidden Path units. If you lose the Azyros early on, oh well! The Prince can still buff your Sisters just as well. The Azyros adds a lot of utility for 100 points, but its utility doesn't stretch as far in a 1000 point match as you pointed out. I agree with your point on the scalability of the Sisters. An army with 50+ Sisters will shred almost anything, provided you can adequately maneuver and defend them on the tabletop. I'd love to see some list ideas along this line of thinking. What units would synergize well with them? A Celestial Hurricanum for the hit bonus? Some cheap units for screens?