AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[spenson]

21 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So outside of the obvious choices of Viridian Pathfinders battalion or just flat out buying CP, the only option I know of is the Penumbral Engine. Its 100 points though 😓

Has someone done the maths regarding the expected CP generation of the penumbral engine? My math classes are quite far away and google wasn't really helpful.

[swarmofseals]

12 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

So, how does it look? And btw, is it even realistically possible to kill Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix with Jade Diadem on the first turn?

Looks pretty solid, I think. I'd suggest some changes but it depends a bit on how flexible you are about what models you include.

It's definitely possible to kill an Anointed on Frostheart with Jade Diadem on the first turn.

Let's look at the effectiveness of different damage and rend combinations against the Frostie at different save levels.

If the Frostie has a 2+ save:

Spoiler

• Rend 0 Damage 1: 0% effectiveness (immune)
• Rend 0 Damage 2: 0% effectiveness (immune)
• Rend 0 Damage 3: 2.78% effectiveness (~431 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 1: 0% effectiveness (immune)
• Rend 1 Damage 2: 8.33% effectiveness (~144 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 3: 11.11% effectiveness (~108 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 1: 8.33% effectiveness (~144 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 2: 16.67% effectiveness (~72 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 3: 19.44% effectiveness (~62 effective wounds)
• Mortal Wounds: 50% effectiveness (24 effective wounds)

If the Frostie has a 3+ save:

Spoiler

• Rend 0 Damage 1: 0% effectiveness (immune)
• Rend 0 Damage 2: 8.33% effectiveness (~144 effective wounds)
• Rend 0 Damage 3: 11.11% effectiveness (~108 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 1: 8.33% effectiveness (~144 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 2: 16.67% effectiveness (~72 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 3: 19.44% effectiveness(~62 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 1: 16.67% effectiveness (~72 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 2: 25% effectiveness (48 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 3: 27.78% effectiveness  (~43 effective wounds)
• Mortal Wounds: 50% effectiveness (24 effective wounds)

If the Frostie has a 4+ save: 

Spoiler

• Rend 0 Damage 1: 8.33% effectiveness (~144 effective wounds)
• Rend 0 Damage 2: 16.67% effectiveness (~72 effective wounds)
• Rend 0 Damage 3: 19.44% effectiveness(~62 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 1: 16.67% effectiveness (~72 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 2: 25% effectiveness (48 effective wounds)
• Rend 1 Damage 3: 27.78% effectiveness (~43 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 1: 25% effectiveness (48 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 2: 33.33% effectiveness (36 effective wounds)
• Rend 2 Damage 3: 36.11 % effectiveness (~33 effective wounds)
• Mortal Wounds: 50% effectiveness (24 effective wounds)

Note that this math does somewhat exaggerate the toughness of the phoenix because it disregards sequencing. The first set of attacks won't trigger any healing because the diadem triggers on the save roll, and at that point the phoenix is still at full health. So the first set of attacks against a phoenix at full health will actually be more effective than the above tables suggest. 

So, is it plausible that Frostie could be taken out on the first turn? It's pretty unlikely but not impossible. I think you need to be afraid of three things: lists that can spam a lot of mortal wounds, extreme combat monsters (a fully kitted out maw-krusha would be a problem, for example), and lists that can put out a lot of high rend ranged damage (bridged and buffed Irondrakes would be a serious threat).

[swarmofseals]

Here's another list I'm considering:

 

Spoiler

Leaders:

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (general - Ironoak Artisan, artefact- Jade Diadem) [320]

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (Lifesurge) [280]

 

Battleline:

30 Freeguild Crossbows [300]

2x10 Freeguild Handgunners [200]

 

Other:

20 Sisters of the Watch [320]

10 Sisters of the Watch [160]

5 Sisters of the Thorn (Lifesurge) [130]

5 Sisters of the Thorn (Iron Oak Skin) [130]

1 Gyrocopter (Steam Gun) [70]

 

Endless Spells:

Soulscream Bridge [80] 

Less ranged damage but still a respectable output, and the Anointed gives a rock solid piece to stall enemies in melee. Ideally this will allow you to use your ranged damage to kill anything that can actually threaten the Phoenix. The major downsides here are reduced overall damage output and the "speed" component of the army is going to be relatively invested in staying together, although SoTT can at least clear chaff off an objective in a pinch. One possible surprise move you could pull is to bait the enemy with the Phoenix and SoTT in order to pull their heaviest hitters out of position only to cast Soulscream Bridge with the SoTT to escape and support your deepstrike team, or contest a completely different part of the board while you deepstrike in your ranged damage to kill their out-of-position damage dealers. 

[readercolin]

11 hours ago, spenson said:

Has someone done the maths regarding the expected CP generation of the penumbral engine? My math classes are quite far away and google wasn't really helpful.

I'm not sure the math is going to help much.

You have a 50% chance of it being on the RR1's to save on turn 1.  There is no reliable way to modify this.  Then, you only have a 33% chance per turn of it switching.  This means you have a 33% chance of getting getting a CP on turn 2, a 55% chance of getting your first CP from it on turn 3, and a 70% chance of only getting one by turn 4.

On the other hand, if it starts on the get CP side, you have a 100% chance of getting 1 CP, 66% chance of getting 2, 45% chance of getting 3, and 30% chance of getting 4 CP's.  While this is a huge amount of CP's, you are spending 100 points to get a 50/50 shot of having those CP's.  This is going to make the engine VERY swingy, and since most of the time you want the CP's early because thats when they would make the biggest difference, I would be very wary of spending the points to get this.

The only exception is if somehow you build your army to always be wanting both the CP's AND the RR1's to save.  So maybe if you are wanting to turtle up with some shooters behind a wall of ironbreakers/eternal guard (who have shield of thorns on them)?

[Zeblasky]

53 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Note that this math does somewhat exaggerate the toughness of the phoenix because it disregards sequencing. The first set of attacks won't trigger any healing because the diadem triggers on the save roll, and at that point the phoenix is still at full health. So the first set of attacks against a phoenix at full health will actually be more effective than the above tables suggest. 

So, is it plausible that Frostie could be taken out on the first turn? It's pretty unlikely but not impossible. I think you need to be afraid of three things: lists that can spam a lot of mortal wounds, extreme combat monsters (a fully kitted out maw-krusha would be a problem, for example), and lists that can put out a lot of high rend ranged damage (bridged and buffed Irondrakes would be a serious threat).

Actually that's a topic I wanted to discuss, I'm kinda not sure how it works.
First, rules for future reference:

Jade Diadem goes "Each time you roll a successful save roll of 6+ for the bearer, heal 1 would allocated to them". 

Witness to Destiny goes "roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or a mortal would to this model, on 4+ that wound or mortal wound is negated."

Lets take Dreadlord on a dragon with Jade Diadem for simplicity at first.  I throw saves, I get 2 sixes and fail 4 rolls. So I have 4 wounds allocated and at the same time I should be able to "heal 1 would allocated to them", because the wounds, well, are allocated at the same moment.  So do I take 2 wounds or I still take all 4 and Jade Diadem does nothing?

 

And yea, the burst is really dangerous for frost burdie, I agree, but I guess I could position phoenix in such a way that any bridged units would suffer serious retaliation from sisters and other monsters on my turn, while their support would be too far away. Positioning is key and I gotta learn it well.

Btw, what changes to the build would you propose and why?

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

Here's another list I'm considering:

 

  Hide contents

Leaders:

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (general - Ironoak Artisan, artefact- Jade Diadem) [320]

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (Lifesurge) [280]

 

Battleline:

30 Freeguild Crossbows [300]

2x10 Freeguild Handgunners [200]

 

Other:

20 Sisters of the Watch [320]

10 Sisters of the Watch [160]

5 Sisters of the Thorn (Lifesurge) [130]

5 Sisters of the Thorn (Iron Oak Skin) [130]

1 Gyrocopter (Steam Gun) [70]

 

Endless Spells:

Soulscream Bridge [80] 

Less ranged damage but still a respectable output, and the Anointed gives a rock solid piece to stall enemies in melee. Ideally this will allow you to use your ranged damage to kill anything that can actually threaten the Phoenix. The major downsides here are reduced overall damage output and the "speed" component of the army is going to be relatively invested in staying together, although SoTT can at least clear chaff off an objective in a pinch. One possible surprise move you could pull is to bait the enemy with the Phoenix and SoTT in order to pull their heaviest hitters out of position only to cast Soulscream Bridge with the SoTT to escape and support your deepstrike team, or contest a completely different part of the board while you deepstrike in your ranged damage to kill their out-of-position damage dealers. 

I would be reaaaaaaly wary of trying to run an all shooting force with only a single monster that wants to get into melee with them.  There are a LOT of armies that can just go around that.  Yes, you have a somewhat mobile army, and you can come in from the board edges with some models, but the army still seems really vulnerable to all the armies that have shenanigans of their own or that can get off turn 1 charges.

8 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Actually that's a topic I wanted to discuss, I'm kinda not sure how it works.
First, rules for future reference:

Jade Diadem goes "Each time you roll a successful save roll of 6+ for the bearer, heal 1 would allocated to them". 

Witness to Destiny goes "roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or a mortal would to this model, on 4+ that wound or mortal wound is negated."

Lets take Dreadlord on a dragon with Jade Diadem for simplicity at first.  I throw saves, I get 2 sixes and fail 4 rolls. So I have 4 wounds allocated and at the same time I should be able to "heal 1 would allocated to them", because the wounds, well, are allocated at the same moment.  So do I take 2 wounds or I still take all 4 and Jade Diadem does nothing?

 

And yea, the burst is really dangerous for frost burdie, I agree, but I guess I could position phoenix in such a way that any bridged units would suffer serious retaliation from sisters and other monsters on my turn, while their support would be too far away. Positioning is key and I gotta learn it well.

Btw, what changes to the build would you propose and why?

This operates in the same manner as the Lord-Castellent does for stormcast, and you can reference the order there.  However, in short:

We roll to hit.  Note, if say, sisters of the watch were firing and rolled a 6, the way the sisters are worded a mortal wound is triggered at this point.  When you have a save vs mortal wounds, these get rolled now.
Next, we roll to wound.  Note, if something inflicts a mortal wound on 6's to wound, this triggers now.  When you have a save vs mortal wounds, these get rolled now.
Next, we roll to save.  At this point, if we roll a 6, we heal any wounds inflicted for each 6.  
Next, we roll our Save after Save, if we have one.
Lastly, we deal damage from the attack.

This means that if we have say, sisters attacking our phoenix, they will attack, roll any 6's to hit, and deal mortal wounds after the attack.  Then they roll to wound, we save, heal back from any 6's on the mortals they inflicted, and then take any damage that got through.

This also means that if we had 3 wounds left, and then took 3 mortals after witness to destiny, we die before we ever heal back from the saves.  On the other hand, if we only take two, then we have a chance to heal back up from however many 6's we roll before we inflict the damage.

Lastly, if you want really unkillable, I would recommend looking at a stardrake with jade diadem backed up by a lord-castellent.  Castellent heals on a 7+ rolled, while increasing its save by 1.  This means that when the castellent buffs the drake, it will have a +2 to its save, and no-rend attacks will heal 1 wound on 5's, and 2 wounds on 6's, though it also means that rend 1 heals 2 wounds on 6's, and rend 2+ we only get the benefit of the diadem.

[spenson]

So I did the maths for the Penumbral Engine and it's as bad as I thought.

First of all: on average it will earn you 2.5 CP.  It's 25 more points than what you paid.

HOWEVER if you keep it close to your army, every turn it doesn't give you a CP, your opponent gets an nice reroll to hit against your units wholly within 12" of the terrain (it's easier for your opponent to stay wholly out of 12" than you). You may be able to find  a configuration where your hero is whithin 12" of the terrain piece and nothing critical is wholly within 12" of it.

Even if you ignore that negative, you have slightly more than 25% chance that you will get less than 2 CP from the 100 points you paid. Of course this also means that you have a bit more than 25% chance to get at least 4 CP, which would be awesome.

Finally you can't really control when you get your CP. What's the point of getting some CP turn 3, 4 and 5 for example when you need them most at the beginning.

Overall I'd rather buy some CP.

[swarmofseals]

13 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Btw, what changes to the build would you propose and why?

I'm not a big fan of the TLA in this situation. It's pretty weak in combat and with only a 5" move it may fail to even get stuck in with anything meaningful after deepstriking. I think a hurricanum would serve you much better. If you want a heavy deepstrike package, I think running something more similar to what @SwampHeart runs would serve you better.  I'm also not a fan of the Nomad Prince. I know you need it for battleline reasons, but it's pretty much going to be stuck unsupported as it can't keep up with the Phoenix or SoTT. I think you'd be better served reworking the list to avoid needing it for battleline. 

12 hours ago, readercolin said:

I would be reaaaaaaly wary of trying to run an all shooting force with only a single monster that wants to get into melee with them.  There are a LOT of armies that can just go around that.  Yes, you have a somewhat mobile army, and you can come in from the board edges with some models, but the army still seems really vulnerable to all the armies that have shenanigans of their own or that can get off turn 1 charges.

...

Lastly, if you want really unkillable, I would recommend looking at a stardrake with jade diadem backed up by a lord-castellent.  Castellent heals on a 7+ rolled, while increasing its save by 1.  This means that when the castellent buffs the drake, it will have a +2 to its save, and no-rend attacks will heal 1 wound on 5's, and 2 wounds on 6's, though it also means that rend 1 heals 2 wounds on 6's, and rend 2+ we only get the benefit of the diadem.

I'll address the second point first -- you're absolutely right that the Stardrake + LC is a very tanky combo, but there are a couple of problems with it. For one, the obvious way to break it is to kill the LC, which needs to stay wholly within 18" of the Stardrake. The other problem is the cost: 540-620 points. At that point you're not tying up the enemy, you are getting tied up.  

 

As far as the first point goes, I'm definitely aware of this problem and I'd like to be able to test it out. I'm definitely not worried about turn 1 charges because everything of importance except the Phoenix is off the table. I think that's the main advantage of using LC for a shooting heavy list over Tempest Eye or Hallowheart. Even if they null deploy their important stuff as well, their units are probably more concentrated in number. All you need to do is play the objective game well enough to force them to bring down more stuff, to which you can respond by bringing in your reserves. Most of the turn 1 charge/shenanigans armies are pretty fragile -- 30 Sisters of the Watch should kill 6.35 Morsarr Guard or slightly more Crypt Flayers in one round of shooting, for example. They should be able to shoot down one Keeper of Secrets and leave a second at very low wounds or kill 15 Seekers. 

And if they do close with you, you get to stand and shoot before they strike. Maybe I am just seeing positioning possibilities that others aren't, but it should be possible to deploy formations of shooters such that incoming melee attackers can only hit a 10 man squad, but you get to stand and shoot with multiple units. In this way, even getting charged should be largely profitable for at least the first charge or two. Maybe I am missing something obvious.

Compare two situations: You are getting charged by a unit of 10 Ardboys buffed to 3/2+/2+/-1/2.

Spoiler

 

Lets say you have a unit of 30 Phoenix Guard -- pretty much the prototypical darling CoS melee unit. Your opponent strikes first and will kill an average of just under 15 PG. You strike back and will deal slightly over 9 wounds on average, bringing the 'Ardboyz down to 6 (plus one wounded). If it's your turn next, you get the first swing next combat and leave the 'boyz with just the champion remaining. He attacks back and kills 2 more PG. On his next turn he strikes again and kills 2 more, and you strike back and kill the last 'Ardboy. You "won" the combat at the cost of 19 PG, or 266 points worth to your opponent's 180. If you only consider the first round of combat it's markedly worse, losing 210 points to your opponent's 81. 

If your opponent double turns you, it's far worse. They strike first again, killing another 9 PG. You attack back and kill two more 'Ardboyz (leaving one wounded still). On your turn, you kill another two, leaving two left. Their attacks will kill another 3-4 PG. Depending on the following turn sequence either side could win the combat, but both units will be basically exhausted regardless of the outcome. You've lost 420 points to your opponent's 180, give or take a few points on either side. 

Now consider that you have four units of 10 Handgunners deployed in formation such that one unit is in a loose formation screening the other three units, which each have models dispersed to be >1" but <3" from the outer edge of the screen. In this case, you first get to stand and shoot. I'm going to assume the Handgunners are completely unbuffed in this scenario. You stand and shoot, killing about 5 Ardboys on average. The Ardboys attack back and turn the screening unit into a fine mist. You get to pile in with some of your guys, but the damage is likely to be negligible. Still, you pile in with one unit only in order to keep locking the Ardboys in place and deal a half a wound on average. If you have the next turn, you now get to shoot with your three remaining units into the Ardboys and then attack first in melee. On average that will kill another 4 Ardboys, leaving 1 left. The champion, badass that he is, will kill another 7 gunners before eventually going down. Final tally: you've lost 170 points to your opponent's 180. 

If your opponent double turns you, then they are going to obliterate another unit of Handgunners and take another half wound in return, leaving them with 4 full Ardboys and one wounded one. Your next round of shooting and melee will deal about 5 wounds on average, leaving them with 2 models remaining. If you get the subsequent turn, you clear out the remaining models easily and have lost 200 points to your opponent's 180.  If he gets the subsequent turn he'll kill another unit of Handgunners before likely dying, so in that case you've lost 300 points to your opponent's 180.

If your Handgunners are fully buffed you're a favorite to shoot the entire unit of 'Ardboys off the table with the stand and shoot response alone. Even if you roll poorly, you're looking at a 100 point vs. 180 point trade at the worst. 

 

I understand that these are artificial situations, but I do think that it undermines the idea that you "need" melee specialists in order to deal with melee situations. In basically every version of the scenario the Handgunners outperform the Phoenix Guard despite the fact that the setup is basically a nightmare scenario for the ranged unit.

Even another scenario which is arguably worse for the Handgunners gives a surprising result. You get charged by 9 Fuethan flood tide Morsarr Guard. Unbuffed Handgunner stand and shoot does basically the same damage that PG will do when they attack back after losing  17-18 models. Buffed Handgunners will deal more than double the amount of damage, killing 5 incoming eels before they even get a chance to do damage. Even if the eels get around the screen after losing 5 models they are only killing 17 Handgunners in return. 

....

Just as an aside, Jade Diadem + Ironoak Artisan Frostie is a heavy favorite to survive an attack from 9 charging Fuethan flood tide Morsarr Guard even without having triggered Attuned to Magic. Should have about 4 wounds remaining on average, even considering the biovoltaic discharge. 

 

 

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

Maybe I am missing something obvious.

6" pile ins which are ubiquitous in HoS & DoK and a major issue when you're going for the double S&S line. One of the many reasons I divested from large buffed hand gunners to MSU 3x 10x. 

Don't disagree with your main point regarding the rest of the list tech - all pretty well spot on. Just wanted to point out that there are top tier armies out there that can effectively absorb handgunners without ever having to deal with their damaging elements. 

[swarmofseals]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

6" pile ins which are ubiquitous in HoS & DoK and a major issue when you're going for the double S&S line. One of the many reasons I divested from large buffed hand gunners to MSU 3x 10x. 

Don't disagree with your main point regarding the rest of the list tech - all pretty well spot on. Just wanted to point out that there are top tier armies out there that can effectively absorb handgunners without ever having to deal with their damaging elements. 

Ohh for sure, I think MSU is far better for any of the stand and shoot units, and to be clear I'm not talking about a formation that is as simple as two lines. 

Pile ins that avoid the stand and shoot entirely are definitely annoying, although I don't know how accurate it is to say that they are ubiquitous. I'm not completely fluent Slaanesh's abilities, but the only pile in increase that I can recall offhand is Seeker Cavalcade, which showed up in precisely 2 lists at CanCon. Seekers are scary for sure in that they can tear across the board super fast. But they aren't deepstriking, so you should at least get one turn of shooting against them before they hit your line. It's definitely a scary threat, though.

The scary unit in DoK is Sisters of Slaughter, but they are a lot slower. If they have a single big block you should be able to deepstrike in on the opposite side, which means it'll take at least 1-2 turns for them to reach you (also giving you opportunity to bridge somewhere else). You could also intercept them with your Phoenix, (f you are running one), throw Scourgerunner Chariots in the way, etc. Again, it's definitely a serious threat but I hardly think you just auto-lose to it.

And even if you did auto-lose to these things, they aren't omnipresent in the meta. I'm using CanCon as an example because I have easy access to all the lists, but AOS is the kind of game where you really aren't guaranteed to face anything specific because even a 15% metagame share for a faction (let alone a specific list) is unusual.

 

[Aelfric]

Can someone point me towards the rules for placing a Penumbral Engine as part of your army - I can't find them anywhere, only the Warscroll.  I was wondering if they could help with using Shadow Warriors as well as CP generation.  Thanks

[Zeblasky]

18 hours ago, readercolin said:

This operates in the same manner as the Lord-Castellent does for stormcast, and you can reference the order there.  However, in short:

We roll to hit.  Note, if say, sisters of the watch were firing and rolled a 6, the way the sisters are worded a mortal wound is triggered at this point.  When you have a save vs mortal wounds, these get rolled now.
Next, we roll to wound.  Note, if something inflicts a mortal wound on 6's to wound, this triggers now.  When you have a save vs mortal wounds, these get rolled now.
Next, we roll to save.  At this point, if we roll a 6, we heal any wounds inflicted for each 6.  
Next, we roll our Save after Save, if we have one.
Lastly, we deal damage from the attack.

This means that if we have say, sisters attacking our phoenix, they will attack, roll any 6's to hit, and deal mortal wounds after the attack.  Then they roll to wound, we save, heal back from any 6's on the mortals they inflicted, and then take any damage that got through.

This also means that if we had 3 wounds left, and then took 3 mortals after witness to destiny, we die before we ever heal back from the saves.  On the other hand, if we only take two, then we have a chance to heal back up from however many 6's we roll before we inflict the damage.

Huh, that's a lot of interesting info, thanks! So if my phoenix has +2 to his saves, he can heal wounds on a 4+ versus no rend, but if he has no plus to save and getting attacked by -1 Rend, he gets no healing at all? Now I'm thinking about making him my general. Frost birb with 2+ save  that massively heals from attacks with no rend... And even 1 rend is okay.  I'll brainstorm some build with him I guess. 

But I want to make sure about 1 thing here, that is still unclear to me from your description. Again, let's say we have a Frost Phoenix with Anointed and Jade Diadem attacked by crossbowmen. Phoenix is at full HP, Crossbows get 4 wound on him through my saves, and I have 2 sixes rolled. Do I heal 2 wounds and then roll Witness to Destiny, do I roll  Witness to Destiny and then use my 2 wound heal on what's left or do I just  roll Witness to Destiny whilst ignoring my 2 sixes? Because the most obvious thing for me to do is the first one, heal 2 wounds as they are allocated and then roll Witness to destiny on the rest.

 

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm not a big fan of the TLA in this situation. It's pretty weak in combat and with only a 5" move it may fail to even get stuck in with anything meaningful after deepstriking. I think a hurricanum would serve you much better. If you want a heavy deepstrike package, I think running something more similar to what @SwampHeart runs would serve you better.  I'm also not a fan of the Nomad Prince. I know you need it for battleline reasons, but it's pretty much going to be stuck unsupported as it can't keep up with the Phoenix or SoTT. I think you'd be better served reworking the list to avoid needing it for battleline. 

Yea, Nomad Prince is great in my Hallowheart list, when he gets bridged with 40 sisters and gives them +1 to hit(posted the build in Hallowheart thread already if interested), but here he's just a okay tanky hero with good support ability and no synergy with the rest. At best he can fight some chaff on the objective I guess and be annoying for big hero Wizards like Alarielle for example.
 

As for TLA - weeeell, he's still a bit worse Treelord Wizard, so not too impressive. But, inlike Treelord he is a hero, so he can charge with CA on his own, and that's a plus. He also has 1 free summoning of Awakened Wyldwood to be extra annoying, blocking LoS and being quite unpleasant to enemy wizards. However it's quite situational too. 

But yea, initially I was going to use TLA together with Branchwraith to set up Dryad factory, but now that build needs remastering and the strategy, although auxiliary, in general seems not too reliable. Right now he fits into the current build pretty well, works well as a screen-tarpit on flank. However, the thought of replacing him with a Dreadlord on a dragon does seem enticing, but then I lose Lifeswarm(although with only 2 wizards having an Endless spell is counter productive anyway). Food for though, although buying another dragon right now....

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Zeblasky

[swarmofseals]

2 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Huh, that's a lot of interesting info, thanks! So if my phoenix has +2 to his saves, he can heal wounds on a 4+ versus no rend, but if he has no plus to save and getting attacked by -1 Rend, he gets no healing at all? Now I'm thinking about making him my general. Frost birb with 2+ save  that massively heals from attacks with no rend... And even 1 rend is okay.  I'll brainstorm some build with him I guess. 

But I want to make sure about 1 thing here, that is still unclear to me from your description. Again, let's say we have a Frost Phoenix with Anointed and Jade Diadem attacked by crossbowmen. Phoenix is at full HP, Crossbows get 4 wound on him through my saves, and I have 2 sixes rolled. Do I heal 2 wounds and then roll Witness to Destiny, do I roll  Witness to Destiny and then use my 2 wound heal on what's left or do I just  roll Witness to Destiny whilst ignoring my 2 sixes? Because the most obvious thing for me to do is the first one, heal 2 wounds as they are allocated and then roll Witness to destiny on the rest.

Your first statement isn't correct. The Jade Diadem has errata which dictate that it heals on an unmodified 6+ save roll, so no you don't get to heal on a 4+ vs no rend. You always heal on 6s only regardless of bonuses to save or rend.

I'm not entirely sure how it wasn't clear from @readercolin's description, but in your scenario the healing does not work at all. When resolving a sequence of attacks, all of the saves are made, and then damage is allocated based on the failed saves. These are two separate steps. Because the healing triggers on a save roll of 6+, it triggers before the damage is allocated. So at the time that the heal happens in your scenario there is no damage allocated yet. Therefore the heal doesn't have an effect. So basically the procedure is like this:

1. Make your save rolls
2. Resolve any abilities that are triggered by the save roles
3. Allocate damage based on failed saves
4. Resolve any abilities that are triggered by the allocation of damage
5. The damage actually happens now

Jade Diadem is triggered by the save, so it happens in step 2. Witness to Destiny is triggered by the allocation of damage, so it happens in step 4. The Phoenix has not taken any wounds until step 5. 

[Zeblasky]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

Your first statement isn't correct. The Jade Diadem has errata which dictate that it heals on an unmodified 6+ save roll, so no you don't get to heal on a 4+ vs no rend. You always heal on 6s only regardless of bonuses to save or rend.

I'm not entirely sure how it wasn't clear from @readercolin's description, but in your scenario the healing does not work at all. When resolving a sequence of attacks, all of the saves are made, and then damage is allocated based on the failed saves. These are two separate steps. Because the healing triggers on a save roll of 6+, it triggers before the damage is allocated. So at the time that the heal happens in your scenario there is no damage allocated yet. Therefore the heal doesn't have an effect. So basically the procedure is like this:

1. Make your save rolls
2. Resolve any abilities that are triggered by the save roles
3. Allocate damage based on failed saves
4. Resolve any abilities that are triggered by the allocation of damage
5. The damage actually happens now

Jade Diadem is triggered by the save, so it happens in step 2. Witness to Destiny is triggered by the allocation of damage, so it happens in step 4. The Phoenix has not taken any wounds until step 5. 

Ah. Well, that's still quite good I guess.

The "Next, we roll to save.  At this point, if we roll a 6, we heal any wounds inflicted for each 6." was not quite clear to me, so I asked for clarification. Thanks!

[Jaskier]

Tossing up between Living City and Tempest's Eye for a shooting-based aelf-themed army, but leaning towards Living City for the shenanigans and general reliance on skill over dice. Tempest's Eye seems more like a blunt, dumb instrument oriented around getting the Soulscream Bridge off (and I hate relying on spells, especially with Tzeentch and Nagash hanging around) or chaffing really well whereas Living City at least can't be 'denied' other than by good positioning from your opponent. I'm wanting to run strictly elf units, and want one-two melee threats to ambush (the Dreadlord on Black Dragon is an obvious one, I'm leaning towards Drycha for the second as I already have a Sylvaneth army, or another flying unit to move/charge over chaff walls) and ideally two twenty-strong blocks of Sisters of the Watch as well. Thinking Darkshards for battleline/'feet on the ground' to allow other units to ambush (I know Handgunners with a Long Rifle are better for this role, but don't know how I'd convert elven ones), a Hurricanum and some other elements to taste. I like the idea of Desolators over a monster like Drycha for ambushing, but the lack of aelf-theme puts the kibosh on those 😅 I'll share some potential lists once I've got a firmer idea of the direction I want to go in; I'm very eager to join the ranks!

Edited February 2, 2020 by Jaskier

[Jaskier]

I've settled on something along these lines, it's intended to be a balanced list heavily favouring the ambush aspect of Living City (1460 points of the army are in reserve!), and it has a strictly aelven theme (gonna be doing some converting!);

Living City - 2000 Points
Dreadlord on Black Dragon - General, Ironoak Artisan, Lance of Spite and Repeater Crossbow, Spear of the Hunt - 300
Celestial Hurricanum - Ironoak Skin - 280
Sorceress - Cage of Thorns - 90

10x Darkshards - 100
10x Darkshards - 100
10x Darkshards - 100
3x Scourgerunner Chariots - 150
20x Sisters of the Watch - 320
10x Sisters of the Watch - 160
4x Desolators - 400

A few things to note; I know Handgunners would be a better fit for this army than Darkshards if only for the Long Rifles and sniping characters out from afar, but converting aelven Handgunners just sounds like a royal pain, and I'd dearly love to have 40 Sisters of the Watch but there isn't a good way to do it and not compromise my ambush/non-ambush ratio. I feel like having two solid melee threats is ideal for this type of list to win a flank and take objectives, and 30 Sisters of the Watch with a Hurricanum will still mince most things they point at (I have to compromise a lot to get the extra 10 Sisters in there if I want to go heavy shooting, I thought about dropping the Desolators and going all-shooting but that doesn't seem like a competitive build.) Idea is to stick the Dreadlord, Hurricanum, both Sisters of the Watch units and Desolators in ambush for turn two/three alpha strike, with the Sisters paired with the Hurricanum to shoot stuff and the Dreadlord paired with the Desolators for shoot-move-charge shenanigans. Darkshards, Scourgerunners and Sorceress hold the field and get me early objective points.

As far as specific unit choices are concerned, the Dreadlord seems the perfect fit for the ambush-shoot-move-charge tactic (I looked at the Drakesworn Templar as well, but decided the Dreadlord was way more efficient) and the Hurricanum just seems like a must in general for buffing shooting; in comparison, the Nomad Prince requires valuable CP, doesn't do tonnes of mortal wounds and only buffs Sisters. Sisters of the Watch are just phenomenal, especially with the stand and shoot - I split them into two units so my opponent has to do likewise to deal with them all (too many ways to just obliterate a single big unit easily.) Darkshards are solid little defensive units and perfect for holding my backfield objectives, and of all the options to combo with a Dreadlord that I looked at (including 20 Dark Riders!) the Desolators ended up being the best overall fit - I can see why other lists use them after doing some comparisons. The Sorceress is a fun little support hero, and I always feel having a minimum 3 heroes is mandatory when the hero-oriented battleplans are in play. I had 150 points spare after all that and it just seemed like there was no better way to spend them than on 3 Scourgerunners; it's crazy how efficient those things are!

Interested to hear your thoughts!
 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Jaskier

[Trayanee]

I would like to run something similar bur keep it mostly aelven. Also would like to avoid bulding and painting Hurricanum so I wonder If running double Dreadlord is viable? I would probably go with prince, two dreadlords and 2x20 sisters as a core in the reserves. However I have a hard time filling the rest of the army to be deployed at start. If I go sorceress+dakrshards and double Sister of the thorn I have 190 points left in CP hungry army without an Anvil unit and lacking some endless spell support. For those points I can get Eternal guard and Geminids, but I am really not sure about it because I feel like I would like to trigger both Dreadlord CA and prince CA.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Trayanee

[schwabbele]

Whats the general opinion  on Eternal Guard?

I am not sure if I should get 20 more or 20 Phonex Guard instead or both 😵

[Zeblasky]

7 hours ago, Trayanee said:

I would like to run something similar bur keep it mostly aelven. Also would like to avoid bulding and painting Hurricanum so I wonder If running double Dreadlord is viable? I would probably go with prince, two dreadlords and 2x20 sisters as a core in the reserves. However I have a hard time filling the rest of the army to be deployed at start. If I go sorceress+dakrshards and double Sister of the thorn I have 190 points left in CP hungry army without an Anvil unit and lacking some endless spell support. For those points I can get Eternal guard and Geminids, but I am really not sure about it because I feel like I would like to trigger both Dreadlord CA and prince CA.

It's almost the dream army I want to take when I will be able to get myself a second dragon.

I would go with Prince, 2 Dreadlords with Lance, Annointed on Frostheart Phoenix(with Jade Diadem), 2x20 Sisters of the watch, 2 Sisters of The Thorn(probably with double Lifesurge to be extra safe) and exta CP. Both Dreadlords and Sisters of the watch would be in reserve. It would be a very flexible and alpha hard hitting army.  Sure you have CPs only for dreadlords, but Prince is there pretty much for backline support(or you can drop turn 2 if you want). You would also have a lot of multiple would models, making LC passive healing pretty powerful, althought the chance of both Dreadlords dying at the end of second turn is pretty high - they can do good damage, but they are not tanky, so just hope they can do good damage before getting killed.

 

 

P.S. Btw, can anyone clarify, do you have to pile in when in melee or you can stand in place and still attack? It's pretty important for Eternal Guard.

[swarmofseals]

1 minute ago, Zeblasky said:

P.S. Btw, can anyone clarify, do you have to pile in when in melee or you can stand in place and still attack? It's pretty important for Eternal Guard.

You don't have to move models when you pile in.

[readercolin]

8 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Whats the general opinion  on Eternal Guard?

I am not sure if I should get 20 more or 20 Phonex Guard instead or both 😵

If you are making stationary fortress's, eternal guard are great.  However, if you need to move around a good bit on the board, Phoenix Guard become miles better.  Also, if you are taking eternal guard, I would say that at least 1 unit of sisters of the thorn are mandatory so that way they can be sitting on a 2+ save.

Basically, I would consider eternal guard if I want to turtle up and bridge forward up the board and then just sit there with a gun line to obliterate anything that comes close.  If however I was trying to run blocks of infantry around the board, and be able to take mobility, I would run the Phoenix Guard.

[Zeblasky]

53 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

You don't have to move models when you pile in.

It's kinda counter logical though. You are "piling in" , but there is no movement for your unit at the same time. Still, the main thing for me is that my units will retain their bonuses. Thanks!

[willange]

What do you guys think of this list for a 2k tournament?

EDIT: It's a local tournament, so not super competitive.  

 

Spoiler

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar

 Mortal Realm: Ghyran -

City: Living City

LEADERS

Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320) - General - Command Trait : Druid of the Everspring - Ironoak Skin

Sorceress (90) - Lifesurge

Spirit of Durthu (300) - Artefact : Ghyrstrike

UNITS

10 x Phoenix Guard (160)

10 x Phoenix Guard (160)

10 x Darkshards (100)

20 x Irondrakes (300)

2 x Fulminators (240)

BEHEMOTHS

Celestial Hurricanum (220)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS

Extra Command Point (50)

Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

 

The idea is that you start with 2 CP and have Durthu + Fulminators come in and hit 1 side, then use the Hurricanum + Irondrakes to hit another side (if they leave themselves wide open, then you could try to have Durthu/Fulminators in range of the hurricanum for additional hit buffs, but that is hard to position).  Then the rest of the army just marches up to whatever objective and tries to be as hard as possible to kill (especially the phoenix between Ironoak skin, lifesurge and the swarm).

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by willange

[swarmofseals]

6 hours ago, willange said:

What do you guys think of this list for a 2k tournament?

EDIT: It's a local tournament, so not super competitive.  

 

  Hide contents

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar

 Mortal Realm: Ghyran -

City: Living City

LEADERS

Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320) - General - Command Trait : Druid of the Everspring - Ironoak Skin

Sorceress (90) - Lifesurge

Spirit of Durthu (300) - Artefact : Ghyrstrike

UNITS

10 x Phoenix Guard (160)

10 x Phoenix Guard (160)

10 x Darkshards (100)

20 x Irondrakes (300)

2 x Fulminators (240)

BEHEMOTHS

Celestial Hurricanum (220)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS

Extra Command Point (50)

Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

 

The idea is that you start with 2 CP and have Durthu + Fulminators come in and hit 1 side, then use the Hurricanum + Irondrakes to hit another side (if they leave themselves wide open, then you could try to have Durthu/Fulminators in range of the hurricanum for additional hit buffs, but that is hard to position).  Then the rest of the army just marches up to whatever objective and tries to be as hard as possible to kill (especially the phoenix between Ironoak skin, lifesurge and the swarm).

 

Personally I think that Irondrakes aren't a great call for Living City. Check up thread where I do an extensive review of ranged units for my logic. I'm sure they are fine if it's not competitive though.

[swarmofseals]

17 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Whats the general opinion  on Eternal Guard?

I am not sure if I should get 20 more or 20 Phonex Guard instead or both 😵

Against low rend attacks EG are just as good as PG, but PG are better against high rend/mortals. 

The main reasons to use EG over PG are if you are running a wanderer general and need them to be battleline or if they fit into your list pointswise but PG don't.