Feeling frustrated...

[PiotrW]

Okay, so Beastgrave is out. I checked the description on GW's website and it seems that they updated the rules for the game *again*. And to get these rules, I'd have to buy the whole Beastgrave core set. Which I have no money for and I have no interest in, frankly...

Also, I currently have four warbands: two from the Nightvault core set, as well as Godsworn Hunt and Steelheart's Champions. The Champions are a Season 1 (Shadespire) warband - which means a lot of cards in their set aren't allowed in the game anymore. Which means, I have to get the new cards in some way... That could mean that - I may be panicking here, I know - I'll have to buy the Champions again, if / when GW re-released this warband with the currently-legal cards.

Aaaaaand... the whole thing might happen again next year. Because GW will probably released a Season 4 edition then. And they will change the rules *again*. Meaning, there will be necessity to buy another core set *again*. Along with new versions of all of my three Nightvault warbands...

I honestly didn't expect this game to be a money sink like this. And I certainly didn't expect Nightvault to become obsolete even before I played a single game...

I don't know, I might be misreading the whole situation, but I feel quite frustrated right now...

[Kugane]

I think the way they design these set releases to play competitively you need to buy almost every set for 1 ot 2 cards each. There is always some sort of staple in a box for a warband. I think this would hold true even if they didnt update the rules. So competitive players would have to buy these regardless.

I am not happy with it, but it seems GW wants to put an expiration date on their products more and more.

That said: nothing to do about it. Its their company and I hope the changes at least fixes some of the previous issues.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Kugane

[PiotrW]

Well, yes, it's their company... It doesn't mean doing stuff like this is fair to the customers. Honestly, I feel scammed right now and I think of dropping Underworlds altogether. Heck, I'm kind of wondering whether I should be playing AoS, either... I had my first AoS game last week, it was fun - but now, I'm really angry. Like GW kicked me right between legs. Maybe I should just drop all of their stuff

Any advice on what to do? How to make my Nightvault set and my Champions playable again?

[Pickle The Hutt]

If you bought the standalone Steelheart box (the Nightvault one), then those cards are still allowed. Only Universals from Shadespire boxes have rotated out and that box was a Nightvault season re-release.

If you're playing casually (probably so if you only have 4 factions), then you can use whatever you like with whatever season rules you like. If you want to play competetively, then you'll need to buy the new stuff anyway.

Note that only season 1 Universals (not faction cards) are rotating out, but only those that were not reprinted in season 2 or 3. Cards like Hold objective x, Great Strength, etc are still fine from Underworlds.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Pickle The Hutt
Changed an instance of Underworlds to Shadespire

[michu]

To be honest I think that's how all such games work...maybe just buy new rulebook from someone who wants only miniatures?

[Overread]

Ebay will likely have loads of split up sets, many on preorder already and others when the kits go on sale next week. You can also likely read someone elses rules at the club to get a general idea of them. 

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

Well, yes, it's their company... It doesn't mean doing stuff like this is fair to the customers. Honestly, I feel scammed right now and I think of dropping Underworlds altogether. Heck, I'm kind of wondering whether I should be playing AoS, either... I had my first AoS game last week, it was fun - but now, I'm really angry. Like GW kicked me right between legs. Maybe I should just drop all of their stuff

Any advice on what to do? How to make my Nightvault set and my Champions playable again?

I think just do what I and my wife are doing and just keep using the old rules to play each other and friends.  As a standalone product the game is still playable. You can discuss with your local game group if they want to just keep using all the cards as well.

And yeah, I know the scammed feeling. I invested significant ammounts in armies that got scrapped. GW stuff simply has an expiration date =P.

What we could perhaps do is ask GW if they can make an extended format where all ole cards are available and ask if tules are able to be uploaded digitally for people that do not have the funds for the new boxed set.

But cheer up! You can always snag the rulebook off a bitz site for a cheap price =).

Edited September 21, 2019 by Kugane

[PiotrW]

2 hours ago, Pickle The Hutt said:

If you bought the standalone Steelheart box (the Nightvault one), then those cards are still allowed. Only Universals from Underworlds boxes have rotated out and that box was a Nightvault season re-release.

Wait wait wait. So the Steelheart box with the Nightvault logo has a different contents than the Steelheart set from Shadespire? Is it the same with other warbands, i.e. is the Nightvault Skaven box different than the Shadespire Skaven box?

1 hour ago, michu said:

To be honest I think that's how all such games work...maybe just buy new rulebook from someone who wants only miniatures?

Good idea! I'll have to ask around if somebody has a spare

1 hour ago, Overread said:

Ebay will likely have loads of split up sets, many on preorder already and others when the kits go on sale next week. You can also likely read someone elses rules at the club to get a general idea of them. 

And, when updating a warband, I can buy a Beastgrave warband box, snatch the cards and sell the minis... Good, there's a plan here

43 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I think just do what I and my wife are doing and just keep using the old rules to play each other and friends.  As a standalone product the game is still playable. You can discuss with your local game group if they want to just keep using all the cards as well.

And yeah, I know the scammed feeling. I invested significant ammounts in armies that got scrapped. GW stuff simply has an expiration date =P.

What we could perhaps do is ask GW if they can make an extended format where all ole cards are available and ask if tules are able to be uploaded digitally for people that do not have the funds for the new boxed set.

But cheer up! You can always snag the rulebook off a bitz site for a cheap price =).

I don't have friends I have one friend who doesn't like complicated boardgames... So, my main venue of playing would be at the LCS - and people there will most probably all switch to Beastgrave rules...

Anyway, I'm currently pestering the GW / WHU people on FB to get some confirmation re: old warbands. I'd really like to have solid statement of whether they are planning on re-releasing all the Season 1 warbands...

[Kugane]

57 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

Wait wait wait. So the Steelheart box with the Nightvault logo has a different contents than the Steelheart set from Shadespire? Is it the same with other warbands, i.e. is the Nightvault Skaven box different than the Shadespire Skaven box?

Good idea! I'll have to ask around if somebody has a spare

And, when updating a warband, I can buy a Beastgrave warband box, snatch the cards and sell the minis... Good, there's a plan here

I don't have friends I have one friend who doesn't like complicated boardgames... So, my main venue of playing would be at the LCS - and people there will most probably all switch to Beastgrave rules...

Anyway, I'm currently pestering the GW / WHU people on FB to get some confirmation re: old warbands. I'd really like to have solid statement of whether they are planning on re-releasing all the Season 1 warbands...

Your season 1 warbands will be useable (even if not 100% competitive). All universal cards reprinted  in the latest 2 seasons are legal for play. All your warband specific cards are legal for play.

Since your game store will play beastgrave, why not see if you can read through their rules? Or simply go like "I would love to play, but I only know nightvault rules. Care to share what changed?"

Just take note and use those rules :). I dont think the game changed too much.

Either way I am sure you will have enough stuff to toy around with.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Kugane

[ReynakZhen]

The game is only getting better and better IMO. Much needed stream lining of the rules. For competitive play, the universal card rotation was necessary.

 

[Pickle The Hutt]

The only Shadespire factions that were re-released in Nightvault were the 2 Shadespire core set factions, Steelheart and Reavers. The Nightvault boxes for those have different universals than in the core set and those cards (as they are Nightvault cards) are not rotating out in Beastgrave.

As others have said, faction cards will never rotate out. You can use any of the Shadespire factions, you just can't use Shadespire specific universals with them. You can use any Nightvault universals as well as any Shadespire universal that also exists in Nightvault or Beastgrave (like Hold Objective X, Great Strength, etc.). This means you can always make a legal deck for any warband by taking the faction cards and adding in some of the universals that aren't rotating out.

[Satyrical Sophist]

I'm happy about rotations. It means that old mistakes can be removed. Sure, if some warband only card is too powerful then it sticks around, but will only matter for one warband. You don't have to deal with some particular card being a requirement for competitive play forever.

[flemingmma]

If its anything like the arrival of nightvault there might be a new set of universal cards to bring the old warbands up to snuff. Might not though. 

[PiotrW]

Okay, so my question now is:

1. Can a warband be played using *only* warband-specific cards?

2. If not, then where do I get the universal cards from?

The problem I see here is that, even though each warband box has some universals, they aren't the same universals as the two packs of universals in the core set. So, are these universals from warband boxes as useful as a set as the cards from the core box - or are they just add-ons? If it's the latter case, then... I'd still have to buy the new core box. And then, next year, another one. And so on.

There's also the question of new tokens, like the player-placed lethal hexes - or the double-sided objective / lethal hexes. They are something only available in the new core box. So, again - to keep the game usable under new rules, I need to go hunting for these tokens - or buy a new core box...

Nope, this isn't right. I know a company needs to make profit, but it also needs to be fair to customers. What GW did with Beastgrave just... isn't fair. When I was buying Nightvault these few months ago, there was no mention that I'd need to keep putting more and more money to be able to keep the game fully entertaining...

But of course, GW won't give me my money back - nor will the hobby shop I bought this game at... And I can't even sell it, because I can't sell an outdated product to someone else...

*proceeds to bang head into the wall*

[Fairbanks]

21 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

Okay, so my question now is:

1. Can a warband be played using *only* warband-specific cards?

2. If not, then where do I get the universal cards from?

The problem I see here is that, even though each warband box has some universals, they aren't the same universals as the two packs of universals in the core set. So, are these universals from warband boxes as useful as a set as the cards from the core box - or are they just add-ons? If it's the latter case, then... I'd still have to buy the new core box. And then, next year, another one. And so on.

There's also the question of new tokens, like the player-placed lethal hexes - or the double-sided objective / lethal hexes. They are something only available in the new core box. So, again - to keep the game usable under new rules, I need to go hunting for these tokens - or buy a new core box...

Nope, this isn't right. I know a company needs to make profit, but it also needs to be fair to customers. What GW did with Beastgrave just... isn't fair. When I was buying Nightvault these few months ago, there was no mention that I'd need to keep putting more and more money to be able to keep the game fully entertaining...

But of course, GW won't give me my money back - nor will the hobby shop I bought this game at... And I can't even sell it, because I can't sell an outdated product to someone else...

*proceeds to bang head into the wall*

Yes and Good Question. I don’t believe we’ve gotten the cards separate before either (we did get the models separate)

[Pickle The Hutt]

This is the 3rd time I've posted this answer in this thread.

ALL 3 core sets share some universal cards (i.e. Hold Objective 1-5 cards, Annihilation, Conquest, etc Objective Cards as well as Confusion, Great Strength, Great Fortitude, etc power cards. 

Since these cards appear in all sets, they WILL NOT cycle out and can be used with any warband.

With those and the faction cards, you can make a legal deck for any faction you want for the life of the game without EVER buying another pack.

Many people hope/think that GW will re-release packs for old factions that include updated abilities and a full 12 card faction objective deck (they originally only have 9 faction objectives) to match those in Beastgrave (all warbands going forward will have full faction playable power and objective decks).

Edited September 21, 2019 by Pickle The Hutt

[PiotrW]

So, I guess the question is: how many of the universal cards are going to be kept? If most of them, then it's not going to be that big of a problem. But if you lose half of your universal cards each year, then it's another thing...

In any case, I still say this kind of rotation is wrong, because the game just wasn't advertised as featuring this kind of rule. If you sell a game as a boxed board game, then the customers (or, at least, some customers - like me) are going to assume that this is a complete product that won't be evolving rapidly. Sure, they will be expansions (which, by definition, *expand* the core set, not make parts of the core set illegal for organized play), maybe some updated version in the future - but that's it. Meanwhile, with the rotation system and the yearly rules updates, WHU seems to have become something akin to a covert CCG, where you have to keep buying stuff on regular basis. There is a place for such games, sure - but the potential buyers should've been informed about it. It's as if you bought a PC game - and then, after a few months, the developers revealed you'll need to pay monthly fee to keep the game running. Wouldn't you feel cheated?

The other thing is that, even with the amount of cards being rotated out wouldn't invalidate the older version's playability immediately, it will still keep eroding the options of players who won't be buying new stuff. Let's say that, next year, the core set drops two power cards from the Nightvault box... Yes, it'd might not be a big problem, but it's still two less cards a player can use. Not to mention, we're talking about the cards from the core set here - we don't know how many of the universal cards from the Nightvault warband boxes are going to be reprinted somewhere else in Season 4.

And then, there's the issue of game elements from the core box that just aren't available outside of it, but are needed for play...

[TatterdemalionM]

Seems like a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation in this thread.

First: You don't need to get the tokens if you aren't buying new warbands. Only the new warbands use them.

Second: None of your cards are rotating this year, and your warband specific cards never will.

Third: There is an official way to use your old cards after they rotate next year. Just play Relic format. I imagine small match-ups at your local game store are probably going to be using this format generally speaking.

As for the rules changes, they're minor and from the looks of it for the better. It would be nice (and honestly, they should have been doing this from the beginning) if they would release a PDF, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Still, it shouldn't be hard to get a handle on the updates.

Honestly though, how many people do you expect to keep playing the game on a regular basis on the tournament level if they're not buying new stuff? If you want to play it casually, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. This game has been modeled after the LCG format from the very beginning, and that involves a certain amount of content turnover to keep it fresh for dedicated players. There has never been a successful card game that didn't feature rotation of some kind, it just wouldn't work. If new players have to buy all the old cards to compete, eventually the barrier to entry will get too high and the game will die.

I feel like they've solved this issue in the best way possible. You can always use your old warbands, and there's an official format in which you can always use your old cards. If you want to play it like a boxed game, there's nothing stopping you. 

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

It's as if you bought a PC game - and then, after a few months, the developers revealed you'll need to pay monthly fee to keep the game running. Wouldn't you feel cheated?

The other thing is that, even with the amount of cards being rotated out wouldn't invalidate the older version's playability immediately, it will still keep eroding the options of players who won't be buying new stuff. Let's say that, next year, the core set drops two power cards from the Nightvault box... Yes, it'd might not be a big problem, 

Your PC game example is not a valid one. The game is multiplayer. People usually move on to the next game when it comes out. Some people might stick around but the default is that people move on. You might have trouble getting opponents to play gears of war 2 these days. 

That said, yeah, sure you can still do it. If you want to play shadespire, you can play shadespire. If you want to play night vault you can do that. Whether or not people want to do that is another matter. 

If your opponents are all wanting to play beast grave then I'm assuming THEY will have the beast grave set, so you don't need it.

Frankly it sounds a little unfortunate that you bought nightvault just before beastgrave came out, the hobby shop guy should probably have mentioned something, since GW have been pretty regular when it comes to WHU releases (new set end of September, beginning of October, 6 expansions thought-out year). That said, this really isn't the problem you make it out to be.

The other ways they could have done it seem so much worse for people. I'm going to list a couple of them. 

They could allow all cards ever printed. Sounds good right? Well if they keep doing it the way they are right now then that would mean having to buy a huge amount of Underworlds expansions. Oh, you like the new beast men? Well Grimnir's axes have a nice objective, and Ironskull's boys have some useful ploys. Don't forget to pick up Mollog's mob as well. I'm sure you'd be complaining about being that as well.

Ok, slight modification, they regularly print an expansions complete card set. This fixes some of the cost issues (though I'm guessing you'd rather have a free solution), but doesn't fix a major problem. By constantly adding cards you are making the decks more and more powerful. That's fine up to a certain point, but has major limitations for them designing new cards. You mentioned CCGs, and this problem is super pronounced there. Games often have cut off points and decks get more powerful the more choices you have. To take magic as an example, a deck made from recent cards (the last two years) will have basically no chance Vs a deck made from every option in the last 15 years. 

Ok, how about they reprint all the cards, but ban some? Some cards are already banned, or restricted. That's a possibility. The thing is though, that list is going to get longer and longer, and people don't like their stuff being banned. Particularly if they had to hunt down a box set to get it. A natural rotation basically let's them not reprint the mistakes. The relic build basically killed WHU in my local shop.

They could have gone for a much harsher option, and cut the shadespire sets completely. They went for an option where you get to keep playing all the war bands.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Satyrical Sophist
TatterdemalionM posted while I was typing. Agree with his points.

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, PiotrW said:

 

Nope, this isn't right. I know a company needs to make profit, but it also needs to be fair to customers. What GW did with Beastgrave just... isn't fair. When I was buying Nightvault these few months ago, there was no mention that I'd need to keep putting more and more money to be able to keep the game fully entertaining 

I’m still a bit confused on what you think is unfair.  (Well of course I do a bit) but isn’t it all about perspective? One way to look at it is as you do now. Bought a game that is being phased out. Basically it’s a stand alone board game with expansions.

The other is GW was very clear on underworlds being a competitive game. To keep such a game interesting and as tight as possible updates need to be made.  But with more and more cards, the interactions become uncontrollable and therefore some things will be dropped and/or changed. So phasing out the older cards is the only way GW can maintain its competitive game goals.  

So what is unfair to you? Is it that shadespire is unplayable. No it isn’t, it’s just not tournament prove anymore. Is it that the warbands aren’t usable? As I understand it they are.  

(Just to be clear I’m genuinely interested in what feels unfair to you, this is not me trying to convince you just explaining my vision on the whole thing)

To me it sadly seems you and GW have a different expectation for the game. On a personal note: I’m in the same boat as you. I did not even start on nightvault as the expansion rate is too high for me. As underworlds is a side game to me. 

Lastly I will note that we don’t know how GW will handle the details. Will the recycled cards from season 1 be available separately? Or will they just be a reprint of a selection of season 1 cards. That would mean you don’t need it anyway. So personally I’m trying not to judge until that time. 

[Battlefury]

I am not really into the game, but for the purpose of getting the new cards, I would like to show you a way:

Even if you play on tournaments, the most TOs accept your personal safety copies of the originals cards that you have ( wich you have not to prove ).
I'd suggest you just find someone who ahs the cards in your local community or via google. Most likely there will be a source to hand you the cards for your personal purpose, if you understand what I mean.

To generally wrap the cards into those plastic seals should be a good way to go...even for your copies.

[PiotrW]

10 hours ago, TatterdemalionM said:

Seems like a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation in this thread.

First: You don't need to get the tokens if you aren't buying new warbands. Only the new warbands use them.

Second: None of your cards are rotating this year, and your warband specific cards never will.

Third: There is an official way to use your old cards after they rotate next year. Just play Relic format. I imagine small match-ups at your local game store are probably going to be using this format generally speaking.

As for the rules changes, they're minor and from the looks of it for the better. It would be nice (and honestly, they should have been doing this from the beginning) if they would release a PDF, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Still, it shouldn't be hard to get a handle on the updates.

Honestly though, how many people do you expect to keep playing the game on a regular basis on the tournament level if they're not buying new stuff? If you want to play it casually, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. This game has been modeled after the LCG format from the very beginning, and that involves a certain amount of content turnover to keep it fresh for dedicated players. There has never been a successful card game that didn't feature rotation of some kind, it just wouldn't work. If new players have to buy all the old cards to compete, eventually the barrier to entry will get too high and the game will die.

Well...

1. Yes, only the new warbands use the new tokens. So, in theory, if I don't want to play the two bands from Beastgrave, I don't need them... But, obviously, there are going to be futher warbands released this year. And they will, most probably, need these new tokens, too. What if I like one of these new warbands, then? How do I get the tokens needed to play it? I can imagine they aren't going to be included in the warband's box. So, I might need to buy the  expensive Beastgrave core set to get them.

2. Yes, none of my current cards are being rotated this year... but they will get rotated next year (if GW continues with this approach and the game in general). I just checked the official deck builder - when it comes to Shadespire, about 50% percent of core set's universal cards got scrapped. When it comes to Shadespire expansions, *all* of the universal cards got scrapped. Now... let's say I want to play Godsworn Hunt. Right now, this warbands has 50 universal cards to choose from (aside from the faction cards). Next year, it will have, quite probably, around *10* universal cards available. This doesn't render the warband unplayable, but... I does limit the options significantly.

3. Yes, there is the Relic format. That's a good thing. The problem is, we don't know how many people will want to organize tournaments build around it? It might end up being an option no organizer ever chooses...

4. Honestly, I don't agree with the notion that either you play purely casual games with friends, or you need to be ready to buy tons of new stuff for tournaments. There are some people (like me) who can't spare tons of money, but still would like to have an option to play in a tournament some day. It's not an either-or situation.

BTW. There's nothing in WHU's description in GW's shop or in the rules booklet that says the game will be run like a CCG... You know, not everyone follows GW's press releases etc. The game is classified as a boxed game in GW's shop. A boxed game is not something that loses a significant amount of contents each year...

9 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Your PC game example is not a valid one. The game is multiplayer. People usually move on to the next game when it comes out. Some people might stick around but the default is that people move on. You might have trouble getting opponents to play gears of war 2 these days. 

That said, yeah, sure you can still do it. If you want to play shadespire, you can play shadespire. If you want to play night vault you can do that. Whether or not people want to do that is another matter. 

If your opponents are all wanting to play beast grave then I'm assuming THEY will have the beast grave set, so you don't need it.

Frankly it sounds a little unfortunate that you bought nightvault just before beastgrave came out, the hobby shop guy should probably have mentioned something, since GW have been pretty regular when it comes to WHU releases (new set end of September, beginning of October, 6 expansions thought-out year). That said, this really isn't the problem you make it out to be.

The other ways they could have done it seem so much worse for people. I'm going to list a couple of them. 

They could allow all cards ever printed. Sounds good right? Well if they keep doing it the way they are right now then that would mean having to buy a huge amount of Underworlds expansions. Oh, you like the new beast men? Well Grimnir's axes have a nice objective, and Ironskull's boys have some useful ploys. Don't forget to pick up Mollog's mob as well. I'm sure you'd be complaining about being that as well.

Ok, slight modification, they regularly print an expansions complete card set. This fixes some of the cost issues (though I'm guessing you'd rather have a free solution), but doesn't fix a major problem. By constantly adding cards you are making the decks more and more powerful. That's fine up to a certain point, but has major limitations for them designing new cards. You mentioned CCGs, and this problem is super pronounced there. Games often have cut off points and decks get more powerful the more choices you have. To take magic as an example, a deck made from recent cards (the last two years) will have basically no chance Vs a deck made from every option in the last 15 years. 

Ok, how about they reprint all the cards, but ban some? Some cards are already banned, or restricted. That's a possibility. The thing is though, that list is going to get longer and longer, and people don't like their stuff being banned. Particularly if they had to hunt down a box set to get it. A natural rotation basically let's them not reprint the mistakes. The relic build basically killed WHU in my local shop.

They could have gone for a much harsher option, and cut the shadespire sets completely. They went for an option where you get to keep playing all the war bands.

Good points and I agree that, if a game was supposed to be run this way, something like that would need to be done. It's just... it wasn't made clear that it will be run this way.

5 hours ago, Kramer said:

I’m still a bit confused on what you think is unfair.  (Well of course I do a bit) but isn’t it all about perspective? One way to look at it is as you do now. Bought a game that is being phased out. Basically it’s a stand alone board game with expansions.

The other is GW was very clear on underworlds being a competitive game. To keep such a game interesting and as tight as possible updates need to be made.  But with more and more cards, the interactions become uncontrollable and therefore some things will be dropped and/or changed. So phasing out the older cards is the only way GW can maintain its competitive game goals.  

So what is unfair to you? Is it that shadespire is unplayable. No it isn’t, it’s just not tournament prove anymore. Is it that the warbands aren’t usable? As I understand it they are.  

(Just to be clear I’m genuinely interested in what feels unfair to you, this is not me trying to convince you just explaining my vision on the whole thing)

To me it sadly seems you and GW have a different expectation for the game. On a personal note: I’m in the same boat as you. I did not even start on nightvault as the expansion rate is too high for me. As underworlds is a side game to me. 

Lastly I will note that we don’t know how GW will handle the details. Will the recycled cards from season 1 be available separately? Or will they just be a reprint of a selection of season 1 cards. That would mean you don’t need it anyway. So personally I’m trying not to judge until that time. 

The things I feel are unfair are:

1. There was no mention that game is basically a boardgame / CCG hybrid and it will involve such a hasty turnover of contents. And no, press releases or articles on Warhammer Community don't count - a customer should not be required to scour for press releases to learn what the game is about and how it's going to function. When I buy a RPG sourcebook, responsible game publishers note right in the book description if such a book is a standalone product and, if not, what is needed to play. If I buy a boardgame that would absolutely require further purchases, I'd expect it to be mentioned in the description, too - or, at least, in the rulebook inside.

2. You might say I'm idealistic, but I honestly do feel a responsible game developer should try to be mindful of their customers when it comes to costs etc. Okay, so GW decided they will be releasing yearly WHU updates, with changed rules - and that there will be card rotation. Alright, so I'd expect them to offer some low-cost solutions for returning players: a separate booklet with new rules, separate sets of updated tokens, a cheap way of keeping the old warband's card decks viable. Instead, they just declare that there are new rules, new tokens etc. - and you need to buy another big box to get all of this. And of course, you can just ignore all of this and play the earlier version with friends... but being able to play in tournaments is a fun thing, right? And now it seems GW expects you to pay a lot of money to keep that option available for yourself.

I don't know, maybe I *am* making this into a bigger thing that it is... but you know, this situation really restarted my paranoia regarding GW's dishonest business practices from the past (like designing the Citadel paint pots the way that makes the paints go bad rather quickly). I thought they have changed and that's why I decided to come back to their games and try AoS and WHU... but know, I feel like just dropping them again. Maybe I am misjudging them, but... other companion don't pull stunts like this. How come Corvus Belli can publish the whole big honking Infinity rulebook on their website for free, along with free tokens to print out etc. - and GW can't publish a PDF with updated WHU rules?

3 hours ago, Battlefury said:

I am not really into the game, but for the purpose of getting the new cards, I would like to show you a way:

Even if you play on tournaments, the most TOs accept your personal safety copies of the originals cards that you have ( wich you have not to prove ).
I'd suggest you just find someone who ahs the cards in your local community or via google. Most likely there will be a source to hand you the cards for your personal purpose, if you understand what I mean.

To generally wrap the cards into those plastic seals should be a good way to go...even for your copies.

Hmmm. That's one solution...

[Kramer]

38 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

1. Yes, only the new warbands use the new tokens. So, in theory, if I don't want to play the two bands from Beastgrave, I don't need them... But, obviously, there are going to be futher warbands released this year. And they will, most probably, need these new tokens, too. What if I like one of these new warbands, then? How do I get the tokens needed to play it? I can imagine they aren't going to be included in the warband's box. So, I might need to buy the  expensive Beastgrave core set to get them.

 

Fair but so far a: what if. You might, you might not have to. And playing against somebody with the core set should prevent it being a problem. 

39 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

2. You might say I'm idealistic, but I honestly do feel a responsible game developer should try to be mindful of their customers when it comes to costs etc. Okay, so GW decided they will be releasing yearly WHU updates, with changed rules - and that there will be card rotation. Alright, so I'd expect them to offer some low-cost solutions for returning players: a separate booklet with new rules, separate sets of updated tokens, a cheap way of keeping the old warband's card decks viable. Instead, they just declare that there are new rules, new tokens etc. - and you need to buy another big box to get all of this. And of course, you can just ignore all of this and play the earlier version with friends... but being able to play in tournaments is a fun thing, right? And now it seems GW expects you to pay a lot of money to keep that option available for yourself.

 

This I'm fully with*. And it's wider than underworlds. To the point people just shrug and call it part of the game. But even then the alternative is to either keep the game in stasis (which I for one wouldnt want) or sell the solution low cost like you say. I don't think that's financially viable for them but... GW did do that for Warcry. Everything from the basic box available separately. So let's hope that the switching point for them. 

The Tournament argument doesn't really hold sway for me. If they marketed it as a ktichen table beer and friends game yes. But if it's meant to be a competitive game you (and I) might just not be their target audience. 

48 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

1. There was no mention that game is basically a boardgame / CCG hybrid and it will involve such a hasty turnover of contents. And no, press releases or articles on Warhammer Community don't count - a customer should not be required to scour for press releases to learn what the game is about and how it's going to function. When I buy a RPG sourcebook, responsible game publishers note right in the book description if such a book is a standalone product and, if not, what is needed to play. If I buy a boardgame that would absolutely require further purchases, I'd expect it to be mentioned in the description, too - or, at least, in the rulebook inside.

the official communication channels do count. If a customer buys into something that's their own responsibility. The suggestion that it should be in the rulebook feels true, but honestly if they did write it in there. They wouldn't leave themselves enough room. What if it wasn't picked up in a tournament way? Now they're stuck with whatever they wrote in there. And at the end it's you view against mine which is fair btw. I don't see it as 'absolutely requiring further puchases'. Only if you decide to play in a competitive setting do you need to be up to date. But again this a difference in perspective. 

54 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

don't know, maybe I *am* making this into a bigger thing that it is... but you know, this situation really restarted my paranoia regarding GW's dishonest business practices from the past (like designing the Citadel paint pots the way that makes the paints go bad rather quickly). I thought they have changed and that's why I decided to come back to their games and try AoS and WHU... but know, I feel like just dropping them again. Maybe I am misjudging them, but... other companion don't pull stunts like this. How come Corvus Belli can publish the whole big honking Infinity rulebook on their website for free, along with free tokens to print out etc. - and GW can't publish a PDF with updated WHU rules?

Yeah this I don't know. I always felt hose dishonest business complaints were not really based on anything. GW just wasn't any good at a lot of stuff. From bad paintbrushes, to paint pots to new armies always being overpowered... I always thought them f'ing up always ended up as paranoia conspiracies. At least in my time in the hobby. Started half way through the 90'. Btw AoS started with everything you needed to play free ruleswise. The core rules were free, alle warscrolls are still free. Wheb they expanded everything, that's when it became more and more of a money sink in my perspective .

But thank you for answering my question  

 

*That's why i'm kind of dropping off AoS because the rate of expensions is so high I stopped being up te date and as a result feel like i'm missing out and not investing at all anymore. 

[kenshin620]

Underworlds is a card game first, minis game second, or at least from my understanding?

 

Nearly every card game in existence has a "recent sets" format. I don't see anyone complaining that WotC isn't fair... (ok maybe there are, and then when you try to play Modern you get nuked by a $900 modern deck 😛)

[Moldek]

I feel like if you’re mostly reading about it online, it’s easy to feel like the only way to play is full competitive...

But that’s just not true. I only have the nighvault core set and I play like 1-2 games a month. The game works really well as a self-contained boardgame, no expansions, no rotations, nothing.

you don’t have to buy anything more to have fun. You can even bring your core set deck to a tournament and play! Probably won’t win every game, but could win some. If you’re invested in it you’ll easily find info about the rules change from beastgrave.

I think the main problem is the fear of missing out. When I see all these cool warbands released that i really would like to have, or think of all the possible strategies I could access with every card, It can feel frustrating. But 90% of players are like us, they have a couple of warbands and play with friends, without worrying about the meta etc.

How many games have you played? How much will your games be affected by beastgrave? Not hypothetical games but actual ones?

I’m sure you can work together with other players to have interesting matchups. Just play a bit and get your money’s worth on nightvault, it’s a great game