AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

If we're being honest though, this Bonesplitta rule is actually incredibly important as a mediator of the game, particularly in tournaments, because it gives armies like death and daughters of khaine pause for thought. We'll see more cautious army builds I'm sure, and hopefully this might reduce the focus on damage prevention saves that many favor. At least it will make Fyreslayers and Daughters players play more conservatively and shake up the list building when in a tournament.

[Pitloze]

Drakkfoot will be very strong. It counters Ethereal amulet and makes Nurgle and Nighthaunt fights a lot easier. Not sure if even BS can handle Slaanesh but we'll see.

Edit: It doesn't counter amulet. I thought it granted the Ethereal keyword.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Pitloze

[Requizen]

2 hours ago, Pitloze said:

Drakkfoot will be very strong. It counters Ethereal amulet and makes Nurgle and Nighthaunt fights a lot easier. Not sure if even BS can handle Slaanesh but we'll see.

Edit: It doesn't counter amulet. I thought it granted the Ethereal keyword.

It's worth noting that there's not much Rend in Bonesplitterz (currently) other than Big Stabbas. The things that Drakkfoot will keep in check is currently Fyreslayers and Skaven Verminlords. Nurgle is scared of them, but they aren't huge in the meta currently, and this only lessens their presence... if Drakkfoot Bonesplitterz become a serious thing. 

It also has a bit of a sobering effect on Death, though they still have plenty of return options. It definitely gives AGKoTGs pause since they can't use Unholy Vitality, and Splitterz are already good at killing monsters, as well.

[JackStreicher]

I am interested how strong orcs (especially bonesplitterz will be). Compared to the cities of Sigmar of which I thought the rules are nice, I had to constantly surpress myself from shouting „broooooken“ in a low voice while reading the Warclan preview. XD 🤣

Edited September 24, 2019 by JackStreicher

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

If we're being honest though, this Bonesplitta rule is actually incredibly important as a mediator of the game, particularly in tournaments, because it gives armies like death and daughters of khaine pause for thought. We'll see more cautious army builds I'm sure, and hopefully this might reduce the focus on damage prevention saves that many favor. At least it will make Fyreslayers and Daughters players play more conservatively and shake up the list building when in a tournament.

This begs the Question: can Drakkfoot units kill morathi within one turn? (As the Rules stand they could, which is absurd).

orks might be at 40k absurdity after this update 🤣

Edited September 24, 2019 by JackStreicher

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

This begs the Question: can Drakkfoot units kill morathi within one turn? (As the Rules stand they could, which is absurd).

Absolutely.  The Iron Heart is an Ability that negates wounds...or at least, it used to 

Good spot on Ethereal Amulet not actually giving you the Ethereal rule though, @Pitloze

Gork giveth, Gork taketh away!

[JackStreicher]

18 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Absolutely.  The Iron Heart is an Ability that negates wounds...or at least, it used to 

Well, that rule kind of ruins the orruk release for me. (It‘s utterly lore-unfriendly and honestly very unfair against mentioned armies/models and very costly models like morathi which specifically cannot be healed). 

Gotrek for example statistically dies against 20 shootas. Which makes neither sense nor fun. It‘s an allround bad rule that leaves a bad taste imo.

Edited September 24, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I really wish they hadn’t doubled down on the monster killing thing for Bonesplitterz. There are some big ones about (looking at you AGKoT) but still, I don’t think it’s something worth building an army around. 

Now you don't need to. Ironjawz with a hunter section in your list. Seems allright to me now. 

[Sleboda]

7 hours ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

If we're being honest though, this Bonesplitta rule is actually incredibly important as a mediator of the game, particularly in tournaments, because it gives armies like death and daughters of khaine pause for thought. We'll see more cautious army builds I'm sure, and hopefully this might reduce the focus on damage prevention saves that many favor. At least it will make Fyreslayers and Daughters players play more conservatively and shake up the list building when in a tournament.

I applaud you, sir or madam, for sharing your thoughts without resorting to the horrible misuse of the misappropriated prefix "meta."

 

Well stated.

 

🙂

[broche]

This new Drakfoot ability is really really good. There nothing I hate more than those stupide stacked rerollable ward save. Feel no pain , DoK, Fyreslayer , Wreckship, and the list goes on.

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Well, that rule kind of ruins the orruk release for me. (It‘s utterly lore-unfriendly and honestly very unfair against mentioned armies/models and very costly models like morathi which specifically cannot be healed). 

Gotrek for example statistically dies against 20 shootas. Which makes neither sense nor fun. It‘s an allround bad rule that leaves a bad taste imo.

I like the rule AS LONG AS it's the only time the rule ever appears. I know people hate the term "Meta" but it's mandatory when discussing this. Notably it's a rule which cripples save after save armies and has 0 impact against armies which don't use it. As an example, slaanesh doesn't give a toss about and they are currently dominating the scene. While this is true the drakfoot ability is worthless.

If DoK becomes god teir running around with endless saves then drakfoot becomes mental. 

At that point I then build a list which dumpsters drakfoot, try to win my first 2 games and rely on the fact that the drakfoot armies will gatekeep the DoK armies away from me so that I can farm wins against them.

We now have a situation where DoK loses to drakfoot but hoses me, Drakfoot loses to me but hoses DoK and I lose to DoK but hose drakfoot.

It's a reactionary choice which specifically stops one type of army from ever becoming way to good. So honestly I don't mind it.

[PlasticCraic]

It's a good thing imo, I think it's healthy for everything to have a natural predator.

If you want to talk "unfair" (or feel-bad for that matter), that damage mitigation stuff is the prime culprit.  Ironjawz spend plenty of points on rend and multiple damage that gets ignored by those units for one.

If a niche within a niche within a niche now has an answer to that, then they can suck it up as far as I'm concerned.  

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's a good thing imo, I think it's healthy for everything to have a natural predator.

If you want to talk "unfair" (or feel-bad for that matter), that damage mitigation stuff is the prime culprit.  Ironjawz spend plenty of points on rend and multiple damage that gets ignored by those units for one.

If a niche within a niche within a niche now has an answer to that, then they can suck it up as far as I'm concerned.  

The point is that 20 shootas for 240 points would kill Gotrek which costs 520 pts. That is what I call unfair, same goes for Morathi.

the Drakfoot ability would be fine if it ignored „wounds negated on a roll of 4, 5 and 6“. But this way it literally is a cheesy cheat to kill off hard-to-play costly Charakters which is a testament to how badly written that rule is.

If I field Nagash I demand that he is not easily killed by 200 pts of Stormcast because of some cheesy ability that negates all his saves.

but if this is possible then the game as a whole is bad, since the relevance of points suddenly is worthless. This rule makes point costs meaningless as long as it affects super-expensive Charakters the way it does.

Edited September 25, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Kasper]

15 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I really wish they hadn’t doubled down on the monster killing thing for Bonesplitterz. There are some big ones about (looking at you AGKoT) but still, I don’t think it’s something worth building an army around. 

But loads of armies have monsters. Slaanesh usually uses 1-3 Keepers, Skaven often got Verminlords etc. All in all, Bonesplitterz look great, they offer a lot to combat the current top dogs like damage ignoring "negating abilities" like Gortrek, potentially Morathi and Hearthguard Berzerkers etc.

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Well, that rule kind of ruins the orruk release for me. (It‘s utterly lore-unfriendly and honestly very unfair against mentioned armies/models and very costly models like morathi which specifically cannot be healed). 

Gotrek for example statistically dies against 20 shootas. Which makes neither sense nor fun. It‘s an allround bad rule that leaves a bad taste imo.

This is why you shouldnt put all your eggs into 1 basket. People are already coming up with absurd lists where Gotrek got his normal save, 3++, 6++, 6++, 6++ and loads of heals. This isn't fun to play against either when you have no way of countering it. "Just dont engage him" isn't a viable strategy in every single game, and in your average casual games (which is the vast majority of warhammer play, lets be fair) people don't play like pros at tournaments.

[JackStreicher]

1 minute ago, Kasper said:

This is why you shouldnt put all your eggs into 1 basket. People are already coming up with absurd lists where Gotrek got his normal save, 3++, 6++, 6++, 6++ and loads of heals. This isn't fun to play against either when you have no way of countering it. "Just dont engage him" isn't a viable strategy in every single game, and in your average casual games (which is the vast majority of warhammer play, lets be fair) people don't play like pros at tournaments.

1) Don‘t play against such min-max abusers.

2) Again GW failed to restrict Gotrek from receiving any buffs.

And then they counter by adding a FREE rule that ignores vital gamemechanics.

[Kasper]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

1) Don‘t play against such min-max abusers.

2) Again GW failed to restrict Gotrek from receiving any buffs.

And then they counter by adding a FREE rule that ignores vital gamemechanics.

Honestly those Gotrek armies aren't much different than people using the old Khorne dragon costing like 70% of your army. Anyways it is just 1 army at the moment that got this ability, there is currently loads of rock-paper-scissor in the game.

[umpac]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

The point is that 20 shootas for 240 points would kill Gotrek which costs 520 pts. That is what I call unfair, same goes for Morathi.

Completely disagree. Having natural counters is healthy for the game, at least from a broader perspective. Warhammer has always been rock/scissor/paper balanced where certain units are designed to take out specific units and the point efficiency is going to be different depending on what you are facing. Gotrek can kill well over 520pts worth of units if he gets the right match up but he will die to 240 pts of his "counter" unit. From a tournament / gaming club perspective that is a very healthy format. Of course it less ideal if you only play 1 opponent who only plays Drakkfoot and you really want to field Gotrek.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Honestly those Gotrek armies aren't much different than people using the old Khorne dragon costing like 70% of your army. Anyways it is just 1 army at the moment that got this ability, there is currently loads of rock-paper-scissor in the game.

That‘s still no valid argument as to WHY GW adds such a rule that robs the fun of 3 factions? (Nurgle Demons, Nurgle mortale, Nighthaunt)

 

@umpac that is nonsense, this is also no counter unit but a COUNTER FACTION that No-brainer massacres entire factions. It‘s hilarious how you are even trying to defend the biggest design fault in AoS 2.0 apart from the always strikes first shenanigans.

“very healthy“: I want to play Nighthaunt, oops, I am dead. Same goes for Nurgle. - VERY healthy indeed.

this is my last word on this since power-Fan  arguments are beginning to rise in defense of GW, as usual.

Edited September 25, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Kasper]

5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

That‘s still no valid argument as to WHY GW adds such a rule that robs the fun of 3 factions? (Nurgle Demons, Nurgle mortale, Nighthaunt)

 

@umpac that is nonsense, this is also no counter unit but a COUNTER FACTION that No-brainer massacres entire factions. It‘s hilarious how you are even trying to defend the biggest design fault in AoS 2.0 apart from the always strikes first shenanigans.

this is my last word on this since power-Fan  arguments are beginning to rise in defense of GW, as usual.

I think you might be overestimating the power. We haven't even seen the full release yet, but you are going bunkers at 1 ability. Bonesplitterz have never been good, yet they get a facelift and people ****** their pants. Wait and see exactly how good they will be. Factions are (assumed) balanced around  having these abilities, so what happens when Bonesplitterz fight an army without those to counter? Maybe Bonesplitterz rely on these abilities to even kill enemy units.

Personally I think units having feel-no-paint saves is a big design fail in AoS, especially when you can add additional layers or rerolls. It is just no fun to see your 20 wounds turn into 2 damage.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Drakkfoot, in my opinion, was a great move by GW, because they saw the prevalence of and near total reliance on damage prevention saves, almost to the point where units were being checked off as bad if they didn't have one. The chances of you going up against Drakkfoot in a tournament while you're running 90 witch elves and Gotrek is going to be slim, at least after the smoke has settled. We're seeing less and less Gristlegore as it is. The reason why this rule is so important, is not because of what it does, but what it threatens to do. If you're flipping the table over a single rule and calling it the end to some armies, you need to either reassess the situation, or adapt to your enemy; the thing generals are supposed to do. This is not even mentioning the fact that Bonesplittas are a very low rend army atm, and I doubt they will gain some if any in the new book.

If anything, GW got themselves into a hole with all these save after saves, and this was a natural answer with the most streamlined of processes, as it changes relatively little while threatening a lot, and said threat is very rarely going to genuinely manifest. If it makes top tier armies pause for thought and reassess their dominance, how can it be a bad thing? And if it all goes wrong, why shouldn't Bonesplittas be king for a bit? The game changes all the time with every new book, so why is adapting to them so much different? We all complained about how nuts Warp lightning cannons were, until they weren't.

In conclusion, if we can deal with Daughters, Skaven and FeC, we can deal with this too. It's just a matter of good generalship on the field, and if you can't fight your way around this rule, then that's your problem, not the game's. There are far more rules and armies that smother any hope of victory from other armies, just by being superior to them.

Also, I really do not like Orruks in AoS so I'm no fan of them.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

31 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

That‘s still no valid argument as to WHY GW adds such a rule that robs the fun of 3 factions? (Nurgle Demons, Nurgle mortale, Nighthaunt)

 

@umpac that is nonsense, this is also no counter unit but a COUNTER FACTION that No-brainer massacres entire factions. It‘s hilarious how you are even trying to defend the biggest design fault in AoS 2.0 apart from the always strikes first shenanigans.

“very healthy“: I want to play Nighthaunt, oops, I am dead. Same goes for Nurgle. - VERY healthy indeed.

this is my last word on this since power-Fan  arguments are beginning to rise in defense of GW, as usual.

Also, don't call people power fans because they have a different opinion and view point to you. That's no way to win an argument and dropping the mic sure does nothing for your position on it.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

@umpac that is nonsense, this is also no counter unit but a COUNTER FACTION that No-brainer massacres entire factions. It‘s hilarious how you are even trying to defend the biggest design fault in AoS 2.0 apart from the always strikes first shenanigans.

“very healthy“: I want to play Nighthaunt, oops, I am dead. Same goes for Nurgle. - VERY healthy indeed.

this is my last word on this since power-Fan  arguments are beginning to rise in defense of GW, as usual

Technically it's a counter subfaction the same way that in the same way as hagnar. 

It's also specific to bonesplitterz so you won't be seeing IJ or great WAAAGH! Armies with it. On the scale of 1 to ****** it's not anywhere near HoS and is a niche ability.

Yes it's going to suck for some armies at tournaments, that's nothing new. In relation to the tournament scene it's a good thing to have IF it remains very rare and niche. 

In relation to a none tournament setting, just don't play nagash against someone whose running it. It's why I don't consider things from a casual perspective. In a casual game if my opponent shows up with a broken ass HoS list I can tell him to ****** off.

So from a casual perspective yes it sucks. From a tournament perspective it's an interesting niche to be floating round in the meta.

[Smooth criminal]

Oh boy, will that anti-ethereal/negate rule require a bunch of faq'ing for every single instance of differently named ethereal/negate in the game. Aos needs to have keywords for abilities at this point.

Also note how we switched "tome trumps basic rules" paradigm for "tome trumps other tome" free for all hellscape of gamedesign .

Edited September 25, 2019 by Smooth criminal

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

Oh boy, will that anti-ethereal/negate rule require a bunch of faq'ing for evey single instance of differently named ethereal/negate in the game. Aos needs to have keywords for abilities at this point.

If I'm honest I only expect it to hit 2 things.

1) units with the ethereal ability.

2) the ethereal amulet.

As both of these have the word "ethereal" it also then functions as a counter to the ethereal amulet without hitting other random instances of it like the goretide artefact. The amulet itself is a problem because of things like VLoZD