Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 33 minutes ago, Hoseman said: Whith all the Chaos Dwarfs lore and things said I always think on fyreslayers... - Chaos Dwarfs greed. Fyreslayers only work searching for the ur-gold or the pieces of their god - Chaos Dwarfs fire, cannons, forge, fire elementals... everything on fyreslayers - Bulls, Ogors, slaves.... well, magma dragons are a bit cooler. For sure maybe I'm wrong, I dont know well the Chaos Dwarfs lore and only a bit of fyreslayers but I see Fyreslayers on a point similar when Sylvaneth only had driads, revenants and kurnoth and needed more units to improve the army, now they are very well only adding a few heroes and units. Same as other 1st edition armys (ironjawz for example). Someone said that maybe Fyreslayers should go to other faction as they are like mercenarys, and I saw the rumour of them dissapearing but I dont think so... Just give them mini magma mounts, a huge cannon and maybe a unit of fire elementals or dogs like the warcry band, paint them on black carbon skin and there you have chaos dwarfs Is it really cannons a FS thing? I never visualised them with cannons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 9 minutes ago, Snarff said: It's not that I expect them to look too similar, it's that I'm scared if they keep Chuardin as they originally were that they will limit each other in design space. I can't imagine both armies getting Fire Elementals for example. I have complete faith that they can make 2 distinct duardin factions, there already are 3 in AoS. I'm just a little worried that them being too close in theme might limit design opportunities for both. Mostly curious to see what they'll do with both when they'll get expanded/released. I'm personally hoping for a fresh take on Chaos Duardin with more of a focus on the non-fire aspects. You don't need to worry, the Chaos elementals are machines powered by daemon essence. You Will think something more steam-persian/parthian army. Hobgrots and Horns of Hashut have that style of armour and weapond. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 19 minutes ago, Sarouan said: I think there's no worry to have about that. Chaos Duardins are all about destructive industry, Fyreslayers are more like mercenary (animist) barbarians. Just having the first wearing armors is a big difference in itself. They're actually nothing alike, background or design. The only things in common they have is that they're dwarves, they have blacksmiths and they like fire. Also the mohawk. That is also a very distinctive element. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 1 minute ago, Sarouan said: Chaos Duardins were always more about shooting and using slaves / horrible war machines than charging in close combat like the Fyreslayers do. IF they both use fire elemental-like beings, they have a very fundamental difference in how they handle them. Chaos Duardins enslave them, Fyreslayers tend to be more respective to the elemental nature - like how their relation is with the magmadroths, some clans actually worshipping them. Chaos Duardins will never do that, they think they're at the top of everything and see other species as slaves - mere ressources to spend as fit, without any care for what they will become or how long they'll last. I know about the lore differences and agree that they're nothing alike in lore. But GW has been quite careful that AoS armies have distinct themes. Stuff like the Unforged was among the first Dispossessed kits to be removed. I think two armies with fire-focused, blacksmith duardin might be too close in theme. Even if one is more 'good' and one is 'evil'. Especially now that they have a whole opportunity to redo Chuardin. They are not stuck to kits that survived the end times (like with Dispossessed, and most of the CoS outside of steelhelms, but also Skaven, Seraphon, FeC, Chaos Gods, StD, Gitz) or have to take some surviving WFB kits and expand them into their own distinct thing (Sylvaneth, Ossiarch, Nighthaunt, SOB, Ironjawz, etc.). They can go wild with them, like with Kharadron, Idoneth, Kruleboyz, Stormcast. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 17 minutes ago, Snarff said: It's not that I expect them to look too similar, it's that I'm scared if they keep Chuardin as they originally were that they will limit each other in design space. I can't imagine both armies getting Fire Elementals for example. I have complete faith that they can make 2 distinct duardin factions, there already are 3 in AoS. I'm just a little worried that them being too close in theme might limit design opportunities for both. Mostly curious to see what they'll do with both when they'll get expanded/released. I'm personally hoping for a fresh take on Chaos Duardin with more of a focus on the non-fire aspects. What about the metal limbs that got Bael Grimnir turned into some sort of disease spread across all the FS and they get that also as their distinctive element from now on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 16 minutes ago, Sarouan said: Chaos Duardins were always more about shooting and using slaves / horrible war machines than charging in close combat like the Fyreslayers do. IF they both use fire elemental-like beings, they have a very fundamental difference in how they handle them. Chaos Duardins enslave them, Fyreslayers tend to be more respectfull to the elemental nature - like how their relation is with the magmadroths, some clans actually worshipping them. Chaos Duardins will never do that, they think they're at the top of everything and see other species as slaves - mere ressources to spend as fit, without any care for what they will become or how long they'll last. All this info is great, but it is from WHFB, right? Our Chorfs are not the WHFB Chorfs. Ours are Chorfs that turned into Chaos during the Age of Chaos, in the same way that Darkoaths started to worship Chaos, isn't it? So they could be 100% different (unlikely, I know. We have bits of AoS lore pointing to slavery and all that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaRegis Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 5 minutes ago, Nezzhil said: You don't need to worry, the Chaos elementals are machines powered by daemon essence. You Will think something more steam-persian/parthian army. Hobgrots and Horns of Hashut have that style of armour and weapond. If the Horns of Hashut are the direction the AOS Chaos Dwarfs will be going in, then I thier design will be leaning into a more industrial/ West Asian style rather then the fire, Babylonian and corrupted dwarf style from the Old world. Having a load of fire motifs would mean they class to much and almost visually become a dark version of the Fyreslayers, which unless thats the direction GW want to take them, from a marketing and "casual entry player" perspective they clash too much. Hopefully they keep the old theme, where you take a smaller force of Chaos dwarfs and loads of worthless hobgrots chaff. That would allow to play a small elite army of just dwarfs, a mix of dwarfs and hobgrot servants or a massive swarm of chaff whos job it is to die whilst the elite artillery and weapons tae out the big threats. Imo if its the like the first Lumineth release, they will get 4 heroes, a battleline dwarfs unit, hobgrot chaff, an arty peice, some elite heavy infantry and a centrepeice unit. The rest would come out a year or two later. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 10 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: Is it really cannons a FS thing? I never visualised them with cannons. Not really. As far as I know, the only ranged weapons they've been described with are Magmapikes (Auric Hearthguard weapons) and Grimnir/Vulcatrix Prayers/Magic. 1 minute ago, Ejecutor said: What about the metal limbs that got Bael Grimnir turned into some sort of disease spread across all the FS and they get that also as their distinctive element from now on? That would be a very weird direction to take their lore in, one I would not be very enthusiastic about. I don't see why it would suddenly be a disease, and Fyreslayers already have a very distinct and recently refined aesthetic (Vulkyn Flameseekers, Store Anniversary Runesmiter). On the Subject of Bael-Grimnir, we also don't really know if Bael got metal limbs or if he's even alive, his fate is quite ambiguous. It was only described as pools of quicksilver cooling beneath the places where his limbs used to be: 'There was a thump as he hit the ground, followed by a muffled crash as his enemy’s body landed beside him. The duardin could feel a searing heat in his arms and legs – and then nothing, as if the limbs themselves had drained away. He tried to stand. There was nothing to stand on. Gold magic burned at the stumps where his limbs used to be. In their place, pools of quicksilver were rapidly cooling beneath him. As unconsciousness finally washed over him, he let his eyes drift shut. He was alive, and the beast was dead. That would have to be enough.' But later, when Trugg wakes up: 'In the cool under Ulgu’s darkness, a verdant glow flickered to life. The monolith trapped below the bloodied troggoth grew brighter and brighter, illuminating the half-burned bodies of troglodytes and duardin alike – yet there were no living souls to notice.' We also have no idea what happened to Flamespitter (Bael's Magmadroth) either. What we do know however, is that Bael's daughter is his heir and that she will most likely be the one taking over the Vostarg lodge. This would be a huge and properly built up shift in the Fyreslayer lore and politics. So maybe Bael's Daughter on Flamespitter. Or finally a Bael-Grimnir model with some sort of prosthetics. They're also expanding on Vulcatrix, her connection to Grimnir and Ur-Gold, and fragments of her fire being used to empower Magmadroths. Then we finally recently got our first female Duardin, Scalebreakers. There's a ton of still unused female Fyreslayer archetypes and characters in lore. Magmaqueens for example. Also, something elemental is stirring beneath the adamantite chain. Possibly the offspring of Vulcatrix that appeared in Realmslayer in the Unbak's magmahold. There's no need to rework Fyreslayers, just continue with the vast amounts of setup they've been doing and pay off on it in both models and lore. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 1 minute ago, AquaRegis said: If the Horns of Hashut are the direction the AOS Chaos Dwarfs will be going in, then I thier design will be leaning into a more industrial/ West Asian style rather then the fire, Babylonian and corrupted dwarf style from the Old world. Having a load of fire motifs would mean they class to much and almost visually become a dark version of the Fyreslayers, which unless thats the direction GW want to take them, from a marketing and "casual entry player" perspective they clash too much. Hopefully they keep the old theme, where you take a smaller force of Chaos dwarfs and loads of worthless hobgrots chaff. That would allow to play a small elite army of just dwarfs, a mix of dwarfs and hobgrot servants or a massive swarm of chaff whos job it is to die whilst the elite artillery and weapons tae out the big threats. Imo if its the like the first Lumineth release, they will get 4 heroes, a battleline dwarfs unit, hobgrot chaff, an arty peice, some elite heavy infantry and a centrepeice unit. The rest would come out a year or two later. The WD Chaos Dwarf Lore describe their society as a mix of industrial-middle west asían religious culture but the first models were not that related, and It was very confuse. With Tamurkhan they fixed that and warmachines were industrial but the crew mantain the babylonian style. If you go deep in their Lore they are way different to Fyreslayers. They hate everything and everyone, even the other Chaos Gods. They only work with people like Archaon because he provided fuel to the Chaos dwarfs. They don't care about gold or money like dwarfs, they care only about power to submiss they others, they are crazy because they don't have a real objetive as common dwarf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Kim Woof-Woof Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Anyone taking bets on how long it'll be before Hashut joins the Genuine Full-Blown Chaos Gods Club? Because apparently they let just anyone in nowadays.... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 24 minutes ago, Nezzhil said: You don't need to worry, the Chaos elementals are machines powered by daemon essence. You Will think something more steam-persian/parthian army. Hobgrots and Horns of Hashut have that style of armour and weapond. That's what I've been expecting. Chuardin turning daemons into weapons and industry as the focus rather than fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan's Cynic Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: Is it really cannons a FS thing? I never visualised them with cannons. Auric Hearthguard have their Magmapikes, so a bigger version of that isn't a stretch in my opinion - even if it looked more 'primitive' than a fancy Kharadron steampunk or ye olde Dispossessed cannon. In the lore, Fyreslayers are said to be just as good at engineering as the other Duardin, they just go about it differently. Edited April 13 by Clan's Cynic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 1 minute ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said: Anyone taking bets on how long it'll be before Hashut joins the Genuine Full-Blown Chaos Gods Club? Because apparently they let just anyone in nowadays.... I think it'll take a while. The Great Horned Rat had 3 editions of buildup before his ascension. Morathi took 2 editions for her plans to ascend to godhood finally came to fruition. Grungi only recently returned from his exile. Malerion is still scheming. Grimnir is (FOR NOW) still shattered. I really like that the pantheons of every Grand Alliance can change though. It keeps things fresh, allows for new stories and interesting dynamics and most importantly gives fans of every faction something to root for. The status qua can change, and that's so cool. For example, Grimnir being a shattered god is 10 times more interesting because he can actually return in a later edition. The impact that will have on the Pantheon of Order and the Fyreslayers are interesting. Also how Grungi will react. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 3 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said: Auric Hearthguard have their Magmapikes, so a bigger version of that isn't a stretch in my opinion - even if it looked more 'primitive' than a fancy Kharadron steampunk or ye olde Dispossessed cannon. In the lore, Fyreslayers are said to be just as good at engineering as the other Duardin, they just go about it differently. I do think gigantic cannons don't really fit their fighting style though. Even the Magmapikes are designed to also be used as a melee weapon and its main shooting gimmick is slowing enemies. I also don't really see fluff wise how invoked Ur-Gold runes help you with shooting a cannon better compared to empowering prayers or speed/resistance/melee capabilities. I also think it's healthy for both identity and balance that FS lack proper ranged options, just like how KO is weaker on the melee side. There are more interesting directions to go than artillery IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 35 minutes ago, Snarff said: I know about the lore differences and agree that they're nothing alike in lore. But GW has been quite careful that AoS armies have distinct themes. Stuff like the Unforged was among the first Dispossessed kits to be removed. I think two armies with fire-focused, blacksmith duardin might be too close in theme. Even if one is more 'good' and one is 'evil'. Especially now that they have a whole opportunity to redo Chuardin. They are not stuck to kits that survived the end times (like with Dispossessed, and most of the CoS outside of steelhelms, but also Skaven, Seraphon, FeC, Chaos Gods, StD, Gitz) or have to take some surviving WFB kits and expand them into their own distinct thing (Sylvaneth, Ossiarch, Nighthaunt, SOB, Ironjawz, etc.). They can go wild with them, like with Kharadron, Idoneth, Kruleboyz, Stormcast. What had expanded OBR from Fantasy? I think I missed that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 28 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: All this info is great, but it is from WHFB, right? Our Chorfs are not the WHFB Chorfs. Ours are Chorfs that turned into Chaos during the Age of Chaos, in the same way that Darkoaths started to worship Chaos, isn't it? So they could be 100% different (unlikely, I know. We have bits of AoS lore pointing to slavery and all that). Horns of Hashut's Warcry background already give enough info to be practically sure that Chaos Duardins in AoS are very similar to what they were in the Old World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 25 minutes ago, AquaRegis said: If the Horns of Hashut are the direction the AOS Chaos Dwarfs will be going in, then I thier design will be leaning into a more industrial/ West Asian style rather then the fire, Babylonian and corrupted dwarf style from the Old world. Having a load of fire motifs would mean they class to much and almost visually become a dark version of the Fyreslayers, which unless thats the direction GW want to take them, from a marketing and "casual entry player" perspective they clash too much. Hopefully they keep the old theme, where you take a smaller force of Chaos dwarfs and loads of worthless hobgrots chaff. That would allow to play a small elite army of just dwarfs, a mix of dwarfs and hobgrot servants or a massive swarm of chaff whos job it is to die whilst the elite artillery and weapons tae out the big threats. Imo if its the like the first Lumineth release, they will get 4 heroes, a battleline dwarfs unit, hobgrot chaff, an arty peice, some elite heavy infantry and a centrepeice unit. The rest would come out a year or two later. Maybe they substitute the Hobgrots with humans this time? Based on Horns of Hashut? Would be weird releasing Hobgrots for KB and the next edition doing the same for Chorfs. Is like Chorfs theoretically stepping into the FS but rather than being the main army the ones doing it would be their slaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 2 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: What had expanded OBR from Fantasy? I think I missed that one. Morghasts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Snarff said: Not really. As far as I know, the only ranged weapons they've been described with are Magmapikes (Auric Hearthguard weapons) and Grimnir/Vulcatrix Prayers/Magic. It was just a random idea when I was thinking on how to "force" them to be even more different. Edited April 13 by Ejecutor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: It was just a random idea when I was thinking on how to "force" them to be even more different. Oh yeah I don't mind, I just love discussing FS lore and speculating on where the lore could go. I didn't mean it as an attack in any way. I mostly wanted to highlight that people really leaped to the conclusion of Bael-Grimnir still being alive and now having metal limbs, even though it's far from confirmed. I'm really wondering what they'll do with him and I'm really hoping for leaks on what would be the first non-underworlds named Fyreslayer model. Either we get continuation on this lore and a model out of it, or it's yet another unfinished lore thread that goes nowhere for 5 years (I'm still waiting for any continuation on Bael-Grimnir's daughter 😢 ). Edited April 13 by Snarff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 24 minutes ago, Snarff said: I think it'll take a while. The Great Horned Rat had 3 editions of buildup before his ascension. Morathi took 2 editions for her plans to ascend to godhood finally came to fruition. Grungi only recently returned from his exile. Malerion is still scheming. Grimnir is (FOR NOW) still shattered. I really like that the pantheons of every Grand Alliance can change though. It keeps things fresh, allows for new stories and interesting dynamics and most importantly gives fans of every faction something to root for. The status qua can change, and that's so cool. For example, Grimnir being a shattered god is 10 times more interesting because he can actually return in a later edition. The impact that will have on the Pantheon of Order and the Fyreslayers are interesting. Also how Grungi will react. But then we have the other side of the balance. If heroes can ascend into goodness or gods can revive, at some point in the lore you gotta kill a god, similar to what happened to Nagash. The thing is that, IMO, Nagash doesn't count as an example, as he is kind of a meme taking into consideration how many times he died. Do we expect to have another god, like Grugni or Morathi, to be killed in some plot? I have the feeling GW won't be brave enough to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 9 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: If heroes can ascend into goodness or gods can revive, at some point in the lore you gotta kill a god, similar to what happened to Nagash Yes! That's what I'm waiting for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarff Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 1 minute ago, Ejecutor said: But then we have the other side of the balance. If heroes can ascend into goodness or gods can revive, at some point in the lore you gotta kill a god, similar to what happened to Nagash. The thing is that, IMO, Nagash doesn't count as an example, as he is kind of a meme taking into consideration how many times he died. Do we expect to have another god, like Grugni or Morathi, to be killed in some plot? I have the feeling GW won't be brave enough to do that. I think the neat part with gods is that they can be killed without being fully gone forever. Grimnir, Khaine and Nagash are great examples. There are also other ways that gods can take a backseat in the story. Sigmar not going into direct combat, Teclis getting some sort of illness from Nagash, etc. I don't think we'll see gods or key characters which have models leading factions outright die. Being shattered, incapacitated, put to sleep etc. I see happening, but killing the god which is a focal point of the faction would break the lore most people made for their armies, and not in a fun way. I do think we're going to see (and we already are seeing this) every army get wins and losses. CoS lost one of their major cities (Anvilgard), but has founded at least 2 new major ones as of the current Dawnbringer plots. SCE are on the back foot and forced to use the Ruination chamber now, leading to some permadeaths. The Runefather of the biggest FS lodge is currently MIA. Nagash started the soul wars and freed the ossiarch, but also got killed. Skaven have indirectly caused the necroquake and blown up part of the Great Parch now that their god has ascended further. Alarielle invoked the rite of life and caused a lot of things to grow crazy. I love that the story can go either way. It's not a hopeless setting like WFB or 40K where everyone hates each other and chaos will win in the end. It's also not a stagnated setting where you know major cities will always be fine because the scope of the setting is too small to allow for such a city to fall. The status quo can change at any time, and that's very hype. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Sarouan said: Horns of Hashut's Warcry background already give enough info to be practically sure that Chaos Duardins in AoS are very similar to what they were in the Old World. Well, as it is something "minor", wouldn't surprise me if GW just say "This? Nah, it was not real. Let's start again". Edited April 13 by Ejecutor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 28 minutes ago, Snarff said: Morghasts I had no clue. Wow. GW did a really good job with OBR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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