The Rumour Thread

[Nezzhil]

28 minutes ago, Doko said:

in specif these units.

yes ironbreaker can have 3/4 but you need pay the heroe tax and isnt something on the scroll,that ward 4 is costed paying for the hero and not paying for the unit.

also it is only for melle and only in enemy turn and also attack last,is imposible compare to a phoenyx guard that dont need hero,work against shooting or magic and also every combat phase, really is imposible compare it,dwarf ward is a 3/10 against all time wards.

oh also when we count the points of a unit,the damage matters also,ironbreakers are useless with 6'6 no rend damage  when phoenyx guard have 8'8 rend 1 damage.

in fact inside of this book we have two tanks units and is easy to see how bad and overcosted are the ironbreakers:

ironbreaker 130 points 10w save3(ward4 only for enemy combat turns and paying the tax of a hero) move4 and 6'6 no rend damage

black guard 140 points 10 w save4 and ward4 in every phase for no extra cost,move 6 and 8'8 rend 1 damage.

so inside same book for only 10 points black guard have 50% more move,50% more damage and with rend,also ward every moment and not only in enemy combat phase.can you tell me that ironbreakers dont need a reduction in cost seeing this?

shieldwall order must be changed to only a ward5 with no restrictions,rigth now is pretty useless

now speaking about irondrakes and because they have been deleted and are overcosted by 40 points. they changed his skill and now you cant use special setups as bridges or deep strike to count as dont move.

oh also lost +1 save vs shooting,also lost the +1 wound from longbeards and the +1 rend of runelords.

so yes a unit that in old book could enter with living city and do full damage now only makes 4'4 rend1 damage for 160 when blisbarbs archers for same cost make 8'8 rend 1

oh and before with the bridge+longbeards+runelord they could have 20 attack 2hit2wound2rend damage1 and teleport and do full damage.

now read  better his scroll and tell me again that irondrakes onky lost 1" range lol

irondrakes have been deleted and they are the worst unit in entire book and need a new scroll with two shoots baseline and delete the stupid rule that cant move

You are using the same argument that some squig players claims when other Gitz players said that the book was too cheap. 

The points must be adjusted to avoid multiple big combos on the same list like the Skragrott + two big blobs of squigs + double sneaky snufflers + double Squig hero that were very common when the Gitz book was released

[Doko]

10 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I'm curious about this. Btw, using the same formula, can you do the numbers for Grundstock Thunderers?

the median are blisbarb archers and idoneths reavers that make 8'8 rend 1 damage for 160/170

the fussilers make only 5 rend 1 damage,so if we compare to thosw units the cost of fussilers must be 30% less than those.

i havent read thunderers but if you really want know and isnt only irony i can do the math for his real cost

[Ejecutor]

10 minutes ago, Doko said:

the median are blisbarb archers and idoneths reavers that make 8'8 rend 1 damage for 160/170

the fussilers make only 5 rend 1 damage,so if we compare to thosw units the cost of fussilers must be 30% less than those.

i havent read thunderers but if you really want know and isnt only irony i can do the math for his real cost

You are forgetting the whole point of the book, heroes shouting command orders to them and that kind of stuff.

[Grunbag]

On 8/13/2023 at 9:41 AM, Elarin said:

I received a very similar information from another source so I can confirm some things:

Cities of Sigmar army set and Seraphon Vanguard release date: September 2nd

Later in September for Orruks:

Tuskboss on Maw-Grunta - centrepiece kit for this release

Zoggrok Anvilsmasha - Megaboss or Megaboss-sized model on foot

New Ardboyz

Ardboy Big Boss

Weirdbrute Wrekkaz

Gloomspite Gitz:

Rabble-Rowza separate release

Trugg's Great Troggherd - similar box to the recent Dawnbringers boxes with a mix of new and old models

How do you know zoggrok is a megaboss on foot ? You’ve seen him ?

[Doko]

3 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

You are forgetting the whole point of the book, heroes shouting command orders to them and that kind of stuff.

im not forgetting it,but that orders are in place of other passives that this book have 0.

it is as if i add the ward5 to blisbarbs that they gonna get with his passive.

or the buffs,its true that fussilers can get mortals on 6 and make the unit so much better,but that must be balanced around the cost of the hero that give this buff and not the unit

[Ganigumo]

19 minutes ago, Doko said:

in specif these units.

yes ironbreaker can have 3/4 but you need pay the heroe tax and isnt something on the scroll,that ward 4 is costed paying for the hero and not paying for the unit.

also it is only for melle and only in enemy turn and also attack last,is imposible compare to a phoenyx guard that dont need hero,work against shooting or magic and also every combat phase, really is imposible compare it,dwarf ward is a 3/10 against all time wards.

now speaking about irondrakes and because they have been deleted and are overcosted by 40 points. they changed his skill and now you cant use special setups as bridges or deep strike to count as dont move.

oh also lost +1 save vs shooting,also lost the +1 wound from longbeards and the +1 rend of runelords.

so yes a unit that in old book could enter with living city and do full damage now only makes 4'4 rend1 damage for 160 when blisbarbs archers for same cost make 8'8 rend 1

oh and before with the bridge+longbeards+runelord they could have 20 attack 2hit2wound2rend damage1 and teleport and do full damage.

now read  better his scroll and tell me again that irondrakes onky lost 1" range lol

irondrakes have been deleted and they are the worst unit in entire book and need a new scroll with two shoots baseline and delete the stupid rule that cant move

130 points for 10 1 wound models on a 3+ is fine, and the potential for the 4+ ward is really good at those points. 100 points for 10 dudes on a 4+ is pretty standard for dudes who get in the way and stand on objectives, and you pay a little extra for the higher save and potential ward. Sure you need a hero to stand near them, but thats how the army works, and you don't need to give orders to your ranged dwarves since they are both melee focused. Its only during the enemies turn, but during your turn you control combat priority, and the army has a bunch of fights first/last, and you can just retreat if you need to, so you don't really need it on your turn.
Irondrakes are still on 3+/3+/-1/1. The runelord still has a +1 rend prayer, it just chants on a 4 now instead of a 2 for some reason, and there are tons of ways for dwarves to get +1 to hit.
The loss of the teleport shenanigans sucks, but they seem to be making an effort to kill that game-wide with the changes to bridge and lauchon, so while they're worse if you play them the way you used to, the book pushes dwarves into a playstyle where you support durable dwarf units with irondrakes and blast anything that comes near you, and if they don't you advance slowly, and I think the warscroll works for that.
They're pretty comparable to 6 boltboyz actually. 6 boltboyz using hasty shot do roughly the same damage as 10 irondrakes with 2 attacks, the boltboyz do a little more but cost 80 more points. 1 shot irondrakes do about half the damage of those 6 boltboyz using aimed shot. 20 Irondrakes cost the same as 9 boltboyz and do more damage with the 2 attacks, and only slightly less with the 1 attack.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Doko said:

the median are blisbarb archers and idoneths reavers that make 8'8 rend 1 damage for 160/170

the fussilers make only 5 rend 1 damage,so if we compare to thosw units the cost of fussilers must be 30% less than those.

i havent read thunderers but if you really want know and isnt only irony i can do the math for his real cost

Fusiliers are on 4+/4+ vs reavers and blissbarbs on 3+/3+.
But with the command trait your all out attack also gives +1 to wound, so if you're building into fusiliers they'll be on 3+/3+, which is slightly worse than blissbarbs and reavers who can get AoA to be on 2+/3+. That said fusiliers have a much better threat range, 24", with an order to get +3 move and still be fortified, giving a threat range of 32", which is further than blissbarbs running 6", and there are 2 ways to increase the shooting range on top of that, and they can shoot back in the enemy shooting phase if something gets shot, or apply strikes last (maybe). Also if you really want the damage you can take the dirt cheap alchemite warforger who you'll be bringing in multiples anyway to hand out orders and +1 save auras and try to cast his spell for mortals on 6's, which pumps a unit of 10 fusiliers up to 10 damage, or 30 up to like 30 damage.
So they do slightly less damage, with better range for less points than blissbarbs, plus they actually have a frontline to protect them.
Thats not to say blissbarbs aren't too powerful either, which they are, in large part due to the allegiance abilities letting them spam CA, the bonus mortals from temptations, and the blissbarb seekers shredding armor for them.
So fusiliers are like Reavers+ in an army that better supports a gunline strategy. 

[Doko]

4 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Irondrakes are still on 3+/3+/-1/1. The runelord still has a +1 rend prayer

again you havent read well the book,excuse me for saying you that but is the true.

runelord as every dwarf on this book got nerfed,lost the +2 to dispell,lost the ward prayer,the rend was nerfed from +2 to 4+ and worse now its only for melle and not work with shootings

[Beliman]

25 minutes ago, Doko said:

i havent read thunderers but if you really want know and isnt only irony i can do the math for his real cos

No irony or sarcasm. Kharadrons are a heavy shooting army with crazy polarized opinions. Knowing what people think about thunderers is a first step in the right direction.

[CDM]

@mods any chance we could get the mathhammer to another thread? Been going on a while now and is getting moderatly heated! 🤣

[Ejecutor]

11 minutes ago, CDM said:

@mods any chance we could get the mathhammer to another thread? Been going on a while now and is getting moderatly heated! 🤣

[DinoJon]

I've been out of the rumor loop lately and glad to see the news coming back! 

New Ironjawz stuff sounds amazing. The Weird Brutes have me the most intrigued and I really hope that they just have magic artifacts strapped to their hands. 

I'm curious about the upcoming Gitz box with probably the new Troggoth hero and/or monster in it. I think if it's in one of those boxes it won't be nearly as big as I was expecting? I was hoping it would be on at least a 100mm base and be a couple heads higher than the current dankhold. Those boxes they generally try to keep around the same price so if it's a couple units of rockguts and then the new guy I would expect something around the size of the current dankhold. 

[Doko]

36 minutes ago, Beliman said:

No irony or sarcasm. Kharadrons are a heavy shooting army with crazy polarized opinions. Knowing what people think about thunderers is a first step in the right direction.

i dont have the kharadrons book,if the scroll that i found on wahapedia is actual and only with aethershot rifle(because it is a chaos the others weapons haha).

have 10w save3 and 6'6 rend1 damage, the cost must be around 150 but his skill of supressive fire for a -1 hit is pretty cool but its his special skill as reavers +1 hit or blisbarbs run and shoot

Edited August 15, 2023 by Doko

[Ganigumo]

23 minutes ago, Doko said:

again you havent read well the book,excuse me for saying you that but is the true.

runelord as every dwarf on this book got nerfed,lost the +2 to dispell,lost the ward prayer,the rend was nerfed from +2 to 4+ and worse now its only for melle and not work with shootings

I guess it is only melee I missed that part, they still hit and wound on 3s and I did the math for them with no buffs so it doesn't really change anything. They bench pretty similarly to boltboyz, and have nearly the same offensive profile as blissbarbs and reavers for around the same points. They still have a role in dwarf builds, but don't have the same kind of buff stacking the fusiliers have access to. The problem with the dwarf stuff in the book (and elf stuff to a lesser extent) isn't so much the points as the lack of support. I'm not saying some of the stuff didn't get worse, just that the points don't feel off for most of the units. You can't fix bad allegiance abilities or incentives through points, and we have examples of this in stuff like kruleboyz and old BoC, spiderfang come to mind as well. 
These changes really do solidify irondrakes as the dwarf shooting unit, since it matches their playstyle. The old buff and teleport strat was just something you threw irondrakes into any cities list to do. The armies around units have a big effect on their usefulness, and you really feel it sometimes. Marshcrawla sloggoth is a perfect example, absolutely useless in warclans, but tons of armies would kill for a big aura of +1 to hit, and dropping the points down to 90 or whatever to try to get kruleboyz to take it is bad for the game.
You can't just point irondrakes at 120 because the dwarves can't buff as well as the humans, because then you just end up spamming them because of the raw warscroll efficiency, and they start warping the entire army around them. There have been a few times in the games' history when this has happened and it is always a disaster.

[Feii]

2 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

😲 You mean a new expensive model coming out may have overly powerful abilities and is undercosted!!!??

🤔 Hmmm. This may help sales. Someone should contact Geedubs and let them know as obviously that's not what was intended. 

I don't think GW does that so frequently. 

Whole* second wave Slaanesh release was super weak. Kragnos was Failnos until he got erratad. 

Idk honestly, I prefer stronger new models than unplayable mess because the bean counters at GW will see lower sales for an army and don't equate it with bad rules. 

[Doko]

6 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

have nearly the same offensive profile as blissbarbs and reavers for around the same points

sorry but i disagree.

irondrakes 4'4 damage at 15" for 160 or if dont move 8'8 

blisbarbs 8'8 damage allways for 160 and can run an charge.

 

so it isnt even close to same profile,blisbarbs have the double shooting for same cost.

 

in practice:

irondrakes 8'8 damage at 15" treathrange or 4'4 at 19" threathrange

for same cost

blisbarbs 8'8 damage with treathrange of 30"+ 

it is really imposible than someone see these stats and think both units cost the same.

and this is if we ignore as dwarfs get almost 0 buffs while blisbarbs get many easy buffs as ward5,+1 rend etc

 

i really think irondrakes for 160 need have 2 shoots baseline and delete the cant move skill to be balanced to blisbarbs/reavers,with this chance dwarfs get less range and move for same damage but better save,its a good balance.

rigth now for same cost dwarfs do half damage with half range and isnumbalanced

[The Lost Sigmarite]

I wonder if FEC will be getting new Crypt Ghouls with the refresh. When they got their WHU band and it featured a female ghoul, I always thought it was a sign they were gonna implement that in AoS proper. I'd like new Crypt Ghouls. 

[JackStreicher]

I had another two games today. One with 2x10 Fusiliers, one with only 10.

I didn’t have a MW Mage yet. My general has the +1 to wound CT.

They do VERY little. They are fast with a long range but their output has plainly been bad in all of the 4 games I‘ve played with them.

20 dealt 12 wounds across 5x shooting (one unit shot 3x) against 4+ armour saves (skaven) that usually used all out defense. For 300 points + 90 ots for a hero and + 50 pts for needing a CP that’s bad.

They‘re completely useless without all out attack, they do nothing with unleash hell and firing back at someone who shot them does NOTHING again.

Their reroll is irrelevant since it’s locked to turn 3 (the game‘s often over at that point).

In my experience the unit is overcosted and overhyped . It might be an issue if you put the MortalWoundForger Spell on a unit of 20+, but that’s it.

The Base 4+, 4+ really kills the unit.

Edited August 15, 2023 by JackStreicher

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

I had another two games today. One with 2x10 Fusiliers, one with only 10.

I didn’t have a MW Mage yet. My general has the +1 to wound CT.

They do VERY little. They are fast with a ling range but their output gas plainly been bad in all of the 4 games I‘ve played with them.

They‘re completely useless without all out attack, they do nothing with unleash hell and firing back at someone who shot them does NOTHING again.

Their reroll is irrelevant since it’s locked to turn 3 (the game‘s often over at that point).

In my experience the unit is overcosted and overhyped . It might be an issue if you put the MortalWoundForger Spell on a unit of 20+, but that’s it.

The Base 4+, 4+ really kills the unit.

You should tell us about this in the 2023 BT discussion - your returns would be really appreciated as most of us haven't tried to BT yet !

[JackStreicher]

3 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

You should tell us about this in the 2023 BT discussion - your returns would be really appreciated as most of us haven't tried to BT yet !

I‘ll copy it over! ^^

[Doko]

24 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

the unit is overcosted and overhyped

yup mathammer says the same,this unit cost is 130. its overhyped because with +1hit+1wound and mortals with 6 his damage is good,but even with these buffs they are inferior to other shootings units buffed as dok snakes shooting twice etc

the time gonna shows us that all this overhype for humans units is false and in competitive the elfs gonna be the good option,but even then we need bring the humans to can do battle tactics and orders even if they are overcosted

[JackStreicher]

Another issue I see will be the price for an army.

imo playing 10 fusiliers is useless, you need at least one reinforcement. Which means 2x50€ (2x60$) for one functional unit, ouch.

 

[KingBrodd]

+++MOD HAT ON+++

OK Mortals time to create your own Math-Hammer thread and move it out of the Rumour Thread. We have actual rumours for once!!

[Twisted Firaun]

57 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

+++MOD HAT ON+++

OK Mortals time to create your own Math-Hammer thread and move it out of the Rumour Thread. We have actual rumours for once!!

Anyone know when GW is finally gonna capitulate to the leaks and preview the two future Bretonnia units we saw last week? 

[RyantheFett]

11 minutes ago, Twisted Firaun said:

Anyone know when GW is finally gonna capitulate to the leaks and preview the two future Bretonnia units we saw last week? 

Two? I only saw the pegasus knight, what was the other one??!!?!

Also makes me wonder how large that starter set will be as well as why some new units are resin while others are plastic?

[Ejecutor]

4 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Two? I only saw the pegasus knight, what was the other one??!!?!

Also makes me wonder how large that starter set will be as well as why some new units are resin while others are plastic?

I understood future Bretonnia as a funny way of saying FEC, but still I am not sure what is the second one 😁

And don't forget metal. They said metal too, which is super odd.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Ejecutor