AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[AronQ]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

DoK is almost exclusively why I take Wheels of Excruciaton  - it is such a potent spell against DoK and especially their support heroes. 

What is your tactic vs DoK and your army build?

[SwampHeart]

50 minutes ago, AronQ said:

What is your tactic vs DoK and your army build?

I don't have a specific list for DoK (almost always practicing with some iteration of a take all comers list). That said my current list I've been using for the past 10 or so games is:

 

Spoiler

Slaanesh - Godseekers - Chamon
-Keeper of Secrets - General [Thrill Seeker], Shining Aegis, Hydroxskin Cloak, Progeny of Damnation
-The Contorted Epitome - Rune Blade, Pavane of Slaanesh
-The Contorted Epitome - Argent Armor, Hysterical Frenzy
-The Masque
-Great Bray Shaman
-30x Bestigors
-10x Ungors
-10x Ungors
-10x Ungors
-5 Seekers
Depraved Drove
Supreme Sybarites
-Mesmerizing Mirror
-Wheels of Excrucation

Against DoK I generally try to play a little cagey, both armies are fast and like to hit very hard. I usually make sure I keep the Bestigors firmly inside one of the Eptiome's bubbles unless I'm going for a hard early swing. Wyches, even with all their extra saves don't enjoy being hit first by full strength HoS Bestigors. My end goal is usually to trade Bestigors for a wych unit while I use the Keeper and the masque to work on bullying another and then using as much of my spell casting as I can to keep pressure on their heroes. 

[AronQ]

2 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

HoS Bestigors

Do beastmen have bonuses from Hedonites rules?

[CB42]

1 hour ago, AronQ said:

Do beastmen have bonuses from Hedonites rules?

Yes and no. If you take them in a Depraved Drove battalion, they get the exploding 6s and generate depravity and you can summon from them or have them sacrifice to the Fane, but they don’t get the fight last locus or any spell lores, and can’t be selected to fight twice.

[SwampHeart]

3 hours ago, AronQ said:

Do beastmen have bonuses from Hedonites rules?

They get any bonuses for <Chaos Slaanesh> but not from <Hedonite> dependent buffs. The key being Euphoric Killers (exploding 6s) applies to all <Chaos Slaanesh> models which the beastmen are (assuming you take the depraved drove). 

[Magnus The Blue]

With a few games with pure hedonites under my belt I've come to the conclusions that unless your running Beasts, invaders are simply the best host: Glory hog and Rod of misrule means your can spam Excess of Violence to your heart's content and still have command points for re-rolling charges and battleshock.  Combined with a decent bonus depravity mechanic, I can't me taking Godseekers or Pretenders again in competitive games.

On a related note, here's my current list:

Keeper, General (Glory Hog), Thermarider Cloak, S.Hand and Song of Secretes 

Keeper, S.Hand and Progeny of Damnation

Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot, Rod of Misrule and Hysterical Frenzy

Infernal Enrapress

Seeker Cavalcade with

3* 5 Helstriders with Claw-spears

2* 10 Seekers

Soo fast and deadly, but it's major strength is it's so hard to charge with all the 6" pile in and buffs that work in both player's turns. 

I've not lost a game with it yet, although yet to face FEC or DoK, so we will see.

Any thoughts for improvement?

[Luke1705]

4 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

With a few games with pure hedonites under my belt I've come to the conclusions that unless your running Beasts, invaders are simply the best host: Glory hog and Rod of misrule means your can spam Excess of Violence to your heart's content and still have command points for re-rolling charges and battleshock.  Combined with a decent bonus depravity mechanic, I can't me taking Godseekers or Pretenders again in competitive games.

On a related note, here's my current list:

Keeper, General (Glory Hog), Thermarider Cloak, S.Hand and Song of Secretes 

Keeper, S.Hand and Progeny of Damnation

Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot, Rod of Misrule and Hysterical Frenzy

Infernal Enrapress

Seeker Cavalcade with

3* 5 Helstriders with Claw-spears

2* 10 Seekers

Soo fast and deadly, but it's major strength is it's so hard to charge with all the 6" pile in and buffs that work in both player's turns. 

I've not lost a game with it yet, although yet to face FEC or DoK, so we will see.

Any thoughts for improvement?

I’d want the supreme sybarites battalion to lower the drop count. @Rhellion posted a similar list a few pages back. I tried to improve his list but I couldn’t 😅

Also generally speaking I like the masque and to summon in an enraptress because it can’t go the other way around

[Isotop]

1 hour ago, Luke1705 said:

I’d want the supreme sybarites battalion to lower the drop count. @Rhellion posted a similar list a few pages back. I tried to improve his list but I couldn’t 😅

Also generally speaking I like the masque and to summon in an enraptress because it can’t go the other way around

New Slaanesh player here. I am going for a first 2000 points list similar to @Magnus The Blue´s one. I am really liking the Seeker Calvacade 6" pile-in. I am also tending towards Pretenders to try out first - reason being the monster called Keeper of Secrets-Sliverslash Impaling Claws-Strongest Alone-Strenght of Godhood™. I know this might sound a bit shallow and maybe I will "evolve" into a Sybarite guy - but for everyone interested in some numbers, here is the average damage some of our pieces are doing (in one combat activation vs 4+ safe):

 

Naked Keeper of Secrets (Sinistrous Hand): ~8,4

Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (being within 1" of 1 enemy unit): ~8,1 (+2,2 when charging)

KoSSICSASoG™: ~16,5 (+2 once per combat phase)

 

I hope this is interesting for some of you. I always like to have a rough number in my head when planning a turn. Additionally, I think there are a lot of wrong expectations floating around in people´s heads. I just crunched those numbers because somebody in another thread stated that a naked KoS is doing more damage than every naked Bloodthirster (which is wrong). I think it is easy to get a wrong impression about the KoS because the Impaling Claws can be very swingy. Everyone remembers the game they rolled two sixes to hit and wounded with all of the hits. But we forget the much more numerous times the KoS did more around the 8,5 stated above (allthough this can get up with Acquiescence or the Fane buff).

I would be super happy to get some more discussion about our damge output and tactics in general. If you need the average damge for any unit, feel free to ask.

[Luke1705]

I think putting all your eggs into one basket isn’t a great idea when our heroes are generally fragile. The strength of Slaanesh is that they come back but they don’t come back with their artifacts/command traits etc

[Magnus The Blue]

 

13 hours ago, Isotop said:

New Slaanesh player here. I am going for a first 2000 points list similar to @Magnus The Blue´s one. I am really liking the Seeker Calvacade 6" pile-in. I am also tending towards Pretenders to try out first - reason being the monster called Keeper of Secrets-Sliverslash Impaling Claws-Strongest Alone-Strenght of Godhood™. I know this might sound a bit shallow and maybe I will "evolve" into a Sybarite guy - but for everyone interested in some numbers, here is the average damage some of our pieces are doing (in one combat activation vs 4+ safe):

 

Naked Keeper of Secrets (Sinistrous Hand): ~8,4

Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (being within 1" of 1 enemy unit): ~8,1 (+2,2 when charging)

KoSSICSASoG™: ~16,5 (+2 once per combat phase)

 

I hope this is interesting for some of you. I always like to have a rough number in my head when planning a turn. Additionally, I think there are a lot of wrong expectations floating around in people´s heads. I just crunched those numbers because somebody in another thread stated that a naked KoS is doing more damage than every naked Bloodthirster (which is wrong). I think it is easy to get a wrong impression about the KoS because the Impaling Claws can be very swingy. Everyone remembers the game they rolled two sixes to hit and wounded with all of the hits. But we forget the much more numerous times the KoS did more around the 8,5 stated above (allthough this can get up with Acquiescence or the Fane buff).

I would be super happy to get some more discussion about our damge output and tactics in general. If you need the average damge for any unit, feel free to ask.

Yeah, I tried out the pure offence pretenders build Keeper you mentioned and it does deal a lot of damage, but the problem is that it's investing too much in a single model and is of most benefit in games which your going to win anyway.   If an opponent doesn't have the units/skill to screen, kill or otherwise deal with one keeper of Secrets, your going to win anyway.  If they can deal with it, you're given up a lot to increase the damage output on a model that's not going to play a big part in the game.  While the Keeper doesn't cost any more points you lose out of a lot by going pretenders instead of Invaders:

1) Glory Hog: I am convinced that this is hands down the best general trait in the game. 1-2 command points a round (works in both player's combat phases) is game changing in an army with access to an 'attack again' command trait.

2) Rod of Misrule: more command points and this time on one of the most efficient CP artefacts in the game. 

3) 1-6 Depravity points a turn: the pretenders bonus depravity almost never produces anything, especially considering your general will wipe out most units on contact, invaders, on the other hand produce points almost every turn except the first.  Over a 5 turn game, this really adds up.

4) Syll'Esske: Really only worth it if they are the general (for the command trait).

5) Defensive/Mobility Artefacts on your Keeper: Thermal Rider Cloak, Ignax Scales, and Aetherial Amulet all make your Keeper much harder to handle.

6) Supreme Sybarites: basically useless in pretenders meaning miss out on a good value battalion and you can't easily do a 2 drop army (except with Beasts).

Sure you get the reroll 1s on big units, but re-rolling 1 to hit is easy to get in Slaanesh anyway so really not a big loss.

Once you've burned 6 command points to attack twice with half your army, you never go back

Edited August 15, 2019 by Magnus The Blue

[Sobakaa]

42 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

re-rolling 1 to hit is easy to get in Slaanesh anyway

What exactly are those easy ways to re-roll 1's on, say, daemonettes or seekers? Outside of vice-leader's ability or chaos sorcerer lord's spell i can't come up with any.

[Magnus The Blue]

5 minutes ago, Sobakaa said:

What exactly are those easy ways to re-roll 1's on, say, daemonettes or seekers? Outside of vice-leader's ability or chaos sorcerer lord's spell i can't come up with any.

Herald spell (available on 4 different scrolls), Epitome spell, Syll (in a massive bubble) and the new generic command trait (if your Invaders you have more command points than you need most of the time).

Edited August 15, 2019 by Magnus The Blue

[Floody]

44 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Herald spell (available on 4 different scrolls), 

And spamable, which is massive.

And a number of MS weapons/relics, a couple of command traits too.

[whispersofblood]

Invaders is pretty clearly the winner, followed by godseekers and Pretenders last.

Has anyone else been funding their lists drift towards 3 KoS? I find I'm just taking different things for list diversity rather than actual best choices. 

[Magnus The Blue]

28 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Has anyone else been funding their lists drift towards 3 KoS? I find I'm just taking different things for list diversity rather than actual best choices. 

Personally I've found 2 is plenty and leaves room for more toys. With three you end up light on models (and wounds) and more at risk of getting your heros getting wiped out during a double turn.  Even if you have more heros, less screens etc makes them vulnerable.  We also have some great utility heroes like Enraptures and Epitome which I struggle to include with 3 Keepers. Also, I've found hordes to be the hardest armies to face and more keepers doesn't really help with that.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Magnus The Blue

[whispersofblood]

Tbh I find the Epitome pretty meh, since I don't use blocks where horrible fascination has value. And, the majority of my damage over the course of the game comes from my KoS anyway. 

I think I would be more interested in the epitome if it had access to generally more dmging spells. 

Its biggest draw to me is overwhelming acquiescence. I'll see if I can buy/build/paint one in time for an event.

[Magnus The Blue]

For me, Horrible fascination is just an added extra (as is the 2+ moral wound save).  The speed, offensive output and most importantly two spells/disspells with rerolls are what makes it good.

Hysterical frenzy is probably our best anti horde tool and Epitome is the best caster we have for it (unless your allying in Fateweaver).  Similarly if your using any big bang Endless spells (Cogs anyone), Epitome is the best model to try and cast it.  Also, the combination of Epitome and Enraptress is the single most effective way to shutdown wizards.  Them rerolling successful casts and you rerolling unbinds means they have 4 chances to fail casting any given spell, even Nagash struggles.

Also great monster/hero hunter with Sword of Judgement (on claws) and the Fane (2+ save Vs the mortal wound to boot): 9 attacks and rerolling what you want gives you 18 chances to roll 6s.

[whispersofblood]

33 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

For me, Horrible fascination is just an added extra (as is the 2+ moral wound save).  The speed, offensive output and most importantly two spells/disspells with rerolls are what makes it good.

Hysterical frenzy is probably our best anti horde tool and Epitome is the best caster we have for it (unless your allying in Fateweaver).  Similarly if your using any big bang Endless spells (Cogs anyone), Epitome is the best model to try and cast it.  Also, the combination of Epitome and Enraptress is the single most effective way to shutdown wizards.  Them rerolling successful casts and you rerolling unbinds means they have 4 chances to fail casting any given spell, even Nagash struggles.

Also great monster/hero hunter with Sword of Judgement (on claws) and the Fane (2+ save Vs the mortal wound to boot): 9 attacks and rerolling what you want gives you 18 chances to roll 6s.

I don't think I've ever not had thermalrider cloak in my list so that precludes sword of judgement right of the bat. But even I went hydrox my next item is rod of misrule.

Perhaps I'm playing my epitome wrong. Typically I let my KoS dispel the low value cast rolls and let the epitome reach for the big casts. I've not found it to be particularly good at that role, and I don't need rrs to beat a 5 typically. Usually it's the bonuses to cast that give me the issues not the actual dice roll. Changing an 8 to a 6 when you add +2 or more is still outside my reach reliably. 

I find hysterical frenzy to not really be all that good an astute opponent just has to pre-measure and keep one model out of range and the unit is immune to the spell. It's also extremely variable in actual output making it probably the most unreliable horde spell, in average you you'll kill a third of a 1 wound unit. For the same points you can ally a Gaunt Summoner on balewind, and roll a die for each model within 24", increasing the number of viable targets and the eventual dmg is to that unit( half vs 1/3)

I do have the Enrapturess in my list and a second has been my first summon almost every game. 

It might just be a playstyle thing since my entire game plan is built around basically not fighting combats that I don't wipe in one round, and trading KoS for a new KoS when I've spent the first one.

[Magnus The Blue]

2 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I don't think I've ever not had thermalrider cloak in my list so that precludes sword of judgement right of the bat. But even I went hydrox my next item is rod of misrule.

Perhaps I'm playing my epitome wrong. Typically I let my KoS dispel the low value cast rolls and let the epitome reach for the big casts. I've not found it to be particularly good at that role, and I don't need rrs to beat a 5 typically. Usually it's the bonuses to cast that give me the issues not the actual dice roll. Changing an 8 to a 6 when you add +2 or more is still outside my reach reliably. 

I find hysterical frenzy to not really be all that good an astute opponent just has to pre-measure and keep one model out of range and the unit is immune to the spell. It's also extremely variable in actual output making it probably the most unreliable horde spell, in average you you'll kill a third of a 1 wound unit. For the same points you can ally a Gaunt Summoner on balewind, and roll a die for each model within 24", increasing the number of viable targets and the eventual dmg is to that unit( half vs 1/3)

I do have the Enrapturess in my list and a second has been my first summon almost every game. 

It might just be a playstyle thing since my entire game plan is built around basically not fighting combats that I don't wipe in one round, and trading KoS for a new KoS when I've spent the first one.

Yeah, typically I'll only use the Sword of Judgement as a 3rd artefact in 2 battalion list , on top of a Miasmic Blade on a Keeper and Rod of Misrule.

Hysterial frenzy is often more of a deterrent than a offensive weapon. If keeping your epitome close to your keeper means it doesn't get bogged down in hordes, super.

But generally I agree with what your saying, it's far from an auto-take but does give you a whole new bag of tricks. Not using one at the moment for many of the reasons you mention.

[SwampHeart]

I run 2 Contorted Epitomes - hands down the best choice I've made since I started with the book. But I'm also a diehard Depraved Drove player where having access to a 2nd net for HF is clutch. 

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

I run 2 Contorted Epitomes - hands down the best choice I've made since I started with the book. But I'm also a diehard Depraved Drove player where having access to a 2nd net for HF is clutch. 

Yeah that follows, your combat elements don't generate their own locus. 

[Luke1705]

Personally in a non beastmen Slaanesh list I do still think a single epitome is close to auto include, but a second one doesn’t have as much value for me over say an exalted chariot. But when you’re taking only 2 keepers, you get to say “why not both?” to those two guys.

What the third keeper does in my lists is axes the exalted chariot, and I don’t think it’s as good to have triple redundancy on keepers when you can summon one if you really need another one. I’d rather be more versatile before my summoning kicks in.

[whispersofblood]

6 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Personally in a non beastmen Slaanesh list I do still think a single epitome is close to auto include, but a second one doesn’t have as much value for me over say an exalted chariot. But when you’re taking only 2 keepers, you get to say “why not both?” to those two guys.

What the third keeper does in my lists is axes the exalted chariot, and I don’t think it’s as good to have triple redundancy on keepers when you can summon one if you really need another one. I’d rather be more versatile before my summoning kicks in.

How is a bladebringer more versatile than a KoS?

[Luke1705]

For starters, it’s not literally the same thing as a keeper. What it brings to the table is the best sword of judgment caddy outside of a contorted epitome (but you would need to run  two epitomes because you don’t really want your only one running forwards and dying, and let’s be honest we’re taking the thermalrider cloak anyhow). It also has an actual bucket of attacks and puts out consistent mortal wounds. The keeper has very low volume of attacks, so the bladebringer is better at consistent damage because there is less dice variance.

If you’re not running Syll’Esske, the bladebringer is a good source of re-rolls (and even if you are it can spread out your buff to multiple areas)

[whispersofblood]

Once you take Thermalrider cloak you can't take Sword of Judgement so that is a non-issue.

It doesn't put out consistent mw outside of charging, a KoS will generally put out as many MW as a charging Exalted Chariot, and more in the second round, or second pile-in.

If you are talking about model diversity sure, but there is no ability based assessment to say it is more versatile, unless you meant different. In which case sure I agree its different. 

Also its much easier to summon a contorted Epitome or any version of Bladebringer than a KoS. 

Ignoring any abilties the Exalted Chariot does 5 wounds to a 4+ save unit, a KoS does about 7.4 wounds to a 4+ save unit.  The both average less than one additional wound against a 5+ save unit. Each 6 to hit is worth .33 of an additional dmg on a Bladebringer at best, where on a KoS that is the worst, followed by .87 and 2.87. So even in the singular horde unit task the KoS puts out more dmg.

The Bladebringer fills the same base role, single model dmg dealer, its has one ability the KoS does not, and that is acquiescence which is obviously useful.  So not only do you get more dmg, you get a better locus, an extra cast, a GD spell, more depravity, more speed, and you are always in range of Excess of Violence. 

I think this would be more of a discussion if fiends or something generated depravity or if you don't have a enrapturess in your list already otherwise I'm struggling to find a reason why 3 KoS isn't just always going to be better than 2 and some other combat model.