AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

So "Cracks Call". What is this supposed to invoke? Obviously the ground is splitting open. What should that mean on the table top? Harder to charge maybe? Cutting movement in half? I really want this to be a anti-pile-in effect but doesn't seem right for the imagery. Also that ability is toxic as all get out. 

One thing is for sure, if its a debuff spell, it needs at least 18" range. If its a damage spell, I could see it being close range. The tertiary angle to consider is what Skaven need from this utility centerpeice model. Most cases you don't want it fighting and is behind a huge wall of chaff. We could either try to protect the chaff or volley damage over the top of them. Depends on what skaven are lacking right now.  

Or we could just improve the bad design, add a d6 to the dice roll? Thats too much. Ah! I have it. I'm brilliant. Ok hear me out. What if we cut down on dice rolling while at the same time up the average of the damage and more importantly increase the likely hood that it actually does any damage? 

Cracks Call (new and improved): Cracks Call is a spell that has a casting value of 6 and a range of 13". If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy unit within range and visible to the caster. If the (modified) casting roll is greater than that unit’s Move characteristic, that unit suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the difference between its Move characteristic and the roll (rounding up). This spell has no effect on units that can fly.

Minimal change to intent and mechanics while increasing probability of doing something AND adding more control over the dice being rolled by tying it to the cast. That +2 Avalanche of Energy, Arcane scenery, Master of Magic all now add to the value of the spell. Boom. Done and dusted. 

 

[Skreech Verminking]

8 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

So "Cracks Call". What is this supposed to invoke? Obviously the ground is splitting open. What should that mean on the table top? Harder to charge maybe? Cutting movement in half? I really want this to be a anti-pile-in effect but doesn't seem right for the imagery. Also that ability is toxic as all get out. 

One thing is for sure, if its a debuff spell, it needs at least 18" range. If its a damage spell, I could see it being close range. The tertiary angle to consider is what Skaven need from this utility centerpeice model. Most cases you don't want it fighting and is behind a huge wall of chaff. We could either try to protect the chaff or volley damage over the top of them. Depends on what skaven are lacking right now.  

Or we could just improve the bad design, add a d6 to the dice roll? Thats too much. Ah! I have it. I'm brilliant. Ok hear me out. What if we cut down on dice rolling while at the same time up the average of the damage and more importantly increase the likely hood that it actually does any damage? 

Cracks Call (new and improved): Cracks Call is a spell that has a casting value of 6 and a range of 13". If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy unit within range and visible to the caster. If the (modified) casting roll is greater than that unit’s Move characteristic, that unit suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the difference between its Move characteristic and the roll (rounding up). This spell has no effect on units that can fly.

Minimal change to intent and mechanics while increasing probability of doing something AND adding more control over the dice being rolled by tying it to the cast. That +2 Avalanche of Energy, Arcane scenery, Master of Magic all now add to the value of the spell. Boom. Done and dusted. 

 

I might actually have an idea.

it is a bit taken from the old warhammer fantasy one, so I’ll ve having a read before writing the idea down on paper.

so might add it to this chat tomorrow or so

[Lord Krungharr]

Thinking some bio-warfare to accompany the mad zap-tech of Clan Skryre might be fun.  What does anyone think of this?  Should I be switching out a few Acolytes for CenserBearers at all?  Not sure I like the Plague Furnace as it needs so many rats around it to even move it.  

Hoping the next 'season' will let all the feeble foot heroes survive longer to do their thing...

Arch-Warlock (general, deranged inventor, vial of the fulminator)

2 Warlock Engineers

3 Plague Priests (which I think will let those Great Plagues go off much more easily if they can get into range).

3x5 Acolytes

4x10 Acolytes

2 Doomwheels

1 Lightning Cannon

 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Lord Krungharr I don't think you'll ever get value out of those priests. Without access to a skitterleap, I've always had problems getting mileage out of offensive prayers in general. At best, you can use your bonuses for the Guidance or Bless prayer. I would just go ham and spam Engineers/Bombardiers  instead, go for double warlord battalion for more toys.  I forget that they have -2 rend shooting. Running them in mass would be fun. That or just add another lightning cannon to truly deter anything big from rushing you.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Riff_Raff_Rascal

[W1tchhunter]

Quick rules check, what is the point in the hordemaster command Trait? How is it different to the ability on the master moulders scroll.

 

Cheers!

[Rangeltoft]

1 hour ago, W1tchhunter said:

Quick rules check, what is the point in the hordemaster command Trait? How is it different to the ability on the master moulders scroll.

 

Cheers!

No command point and you can use it on the same unit if the command ability fails to bring them back

[W1tchhunter]

Got a picture of my practice game new years day for a 2k tournament this month. Gone full moulder! 

This is the list when the new GHB drops it will be over 100 points cheaper haha.

 - Army Faction: Skaven
     - Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
LEADERS
Grey Seer (125)
     - Spells: Death Frenzy
Master Moulder (90)*
     - General
     - Command Traits: Moulder Supreme
     - Things-catcher
     - Artefacts of Power: Foulhide
Master Moulder (90)*
     - Warpstone-tipped Lash
     - Artefacts of Power: Rabid Crown
Master Moulder (90)*
     - Warpstone-tipped Lash
BATTLELINE
Rat Ogors (280)**
Rat Ogors (280)**
Giant Rats (180)**
BEHEMOTH
Hell Pit Abomination (245)
     - Prized Creations:  Accelerated Regeneration
Hell Pit Abomination (245)
     - Prized Creations:  Toughened Sinews
Hell Pit Abomination (245)
     - Prized Creations:  Lumbering Behemoth
OTHER
Rat Swarms (55)
Rat Swarms (55)*
CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord
**Bounty Hunters
TOTAL POINTS: 1980/2000
 

[Scythian]

Going with a heavy rat ogre Clan Moulder army. Just finished Thanquol today.

[Scythian]

1960 with Thanquol’s new points increase.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I took a look a the new season rules and I'm trying to see the cheese.

- Deathmasters popping up a turn earlier can set up favorable hero phase combat using the Strike at the Opening. Then you can normal move away out of danger without worrying about the strike-last. 

-No retreat, No surrender command ability prevents pile-ins but gives +1 attack. Pile-ins are not that big of a problem since we get extra reach. A classic clanrat screen to take a charge with stormvermin behind them seems great. This ironically would make a nearby clawlord redundant. 

-Our sniper teams cannot be sharpshooters (Artillery), booooo

-A skryre hero with 'Leadership of the Alpha' unique enchancement to triple All-out attack 3 Rattling Gun Teams seems like mayhem. With a "Nightflyer cloak" aspect of a champion on top of that, you get the guaranteed teleport to the spot where your Russian doll clanrat -weapons team combo will pop up. Nice.

-The Masterclan battle trait gives you essentially 3 bites at the apple to make the Tuskhelm Relic get maximum potential (Charge with something else, re-roll if necessary, if all else fails, roll the actual Galletion Champion's charge). Ironically might make a Deathmaster punch above his weight finally. 

-Doomflayers. They be infantry yo. With some fancy maneuvering could help them foot heroes out with No retreat No surrender. With our normal death frenzy shenanigans, that strike last don't matter. Just sayin'. 

-Sending a 90 pt. Master Moulder counting as 10 models with 'Stubborn as s Rhinox' onto an objective with Skitterleap is a cheeky way to steal an objective. Potentially a point surge depending on the scenario. 

-Tunnel master Aspect can let you send a Deathmaster with our 'Gnawbomb' artifact with skitterleap, drop it, then teleport to safety in the following movement phase. Meanwhile you can triple teleport cool stuff to the new gnawhole with clever set-up. 

[Cosmicsheep]

17 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

- Deathmasters popping up a turn earlier can set up favorable hero phase combat using the Strike at the Opening. Then you can normal move away out of danger without worrying about the strike-last. 

I've been thinking about having a deathmaster in a Galletian Command batallion with 30 stormvermin. Give him the shadow magnet trinket and since this triggers at the start of the combat phase, the same time as he is revealed, you can let your stormvermin be charged into and still get to attack with the deathmaster and all 30 stormvermin before the enemy strikes. Use the No Retreat, No Surrender (also at the start of the combat phase) to give them the extra attack. Cast a death frenzy on them if you have chance just to maximise the mayhem

Edited January 6, 2023 by Cosmicsheep

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Cosmicsheep You made my day. I have a reason to field a block of stormvermin again! The best part is that they can just pop up wherever and be independent operators with this strat. I will say though, Strikes first units will need an FAQ because, the bodyguard doesn't have it and 12.5 of the core rules are open ended saying that "units with strike first effects attack" and then "units without..." can attack. Nothing says you can't do your idea, but I can clearly envision some debates at the table, especially if they watch 30 stormvermin counter-slap with 90 attacks off-turn. 

[Cosmicsheep]

@Riff_Raff_Rascal happy-glad to be of service. Just reading the core rules on strike-first and i think we're covered by 1.6.3 (effect of an ability taking precedence over a core rule) Not sure if a batallion rule is an ability or not but i'm confident my local TO would allow this

The thing to remember with this ploy is to ensure that your deathmaster can be deployed within range of the enemy and keep the stormvermin wholly within 6. Maybe leave a little hole in the middle of the unit?

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Cosmicsheep That would suffice I think. Almost all of these new Galletian Champion related abilities are going to be real finicky anyways. Theres a lot of 'if' statements scattered around the season's rules. New players will have a struggle, experienced players will be rewarded for smart play but one thing's for sure, acute positioning will slow the game down a bit. 

If I'm being honest, this season just reminded me we're still missing a generic set of scenarios, not dealing with any season. I miss just rolling up to the table. Don't get me wrong. I love the concept of seasons and feel mentally spry enough to enjoy them, just wish there was a basic option too. 

 

[Skreech Verminking]

29 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

@Riff_Raff_Rascal happy-glad to be of service. Just reading the core rules on strike-first and i think we're covered by 1.6.3 (effect of an ability taking precedence over a core rule) Not sure if a batallion rule is an ability or not but i'm confident my local TO would allow this

The thing to remember with this ploy is to ensure that your deathmaster can be deployed within range of the enemy and keep the stormvermin wholly within 6. Maybe leave a little hole in the middle of the unit?

I haven’t really had the chance to look at the new rules as they are a bit difficult to read with the potato cams we have seen so far in the internet.

So this is pretty much new for me

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

With the advent of bounty hunters leaving. This will be my first chaff spam list. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (360)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Master Moulder (90)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (100)
20 x Clanrats (100)
20 x Clanrats (100)
20 x Clanrats (100)
20 x Clanrats (100)
20 x Clanrats (100)
20 x Clanrats (100)
20 x Clanrats (100)
18 x Giant Rats (180)
- Reinforced x 2
18 x Giant Rats (180)
- Reinforced x 2
2 x Rat Swarms (55)
2 x Rat Swarms (55)
2 x Rat Swarms (55)
2 x Rat Swarms (55)
1 x Warp-Grinder (65)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Bell of Doom (60)

Total: 1955 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 248
Drops: 17
 

I'm playing against some new players and thought I could have fun being the punching bag. Never really pushed he limit on clanrats coming back too, and rat swarms...and giant rats. Oof. Also thought to dust off the bell of doom so they can get a sense of endless spells on the table. 

[W1tchhunter]

Is there a lore reason why moulder don't have a verminlord?

Played my PTG games last night. First was a major victory against ogors.

 

Second was a loss against ossiarch, as I thought high save armies are a big issue for moulder due to no mortals and no rend. The mortek guard had 3 up saves rerolling haha was disgusting. Was a close game though I got 7 points he got 8. 

The Skaven masterplan ability for PTG is great as you do not need to roll on the injury rolls as long as you complete your masterplan. Which for moulder is bringing at least 3 units back.

This did mean that 485 points of ossiarch destroyed 1000 points of moulder which did feel bad

My general Trikix the Taxidermist survived both games though!

[Skreech Verminking]

41 minutes ago, W1tchhunter said:

1)Is there a lore reason why moulder don't have a verminlord?

2)Played my PTG games last night. First was a major victory against ogors.

 

3)Second was a loss against ossiarch, as I thought high save armies are a big issue for moulder due to no mortals and no rend. The mortek guard had 3 up saves rerolling haha was disgusting. Was a close game though I got 7 points he got 8. 

The Skaven masterplan ability for PTG is great as you do not need to roll on the injury rolls as long as you complete your masterplan. Which for moulder is bringing at least 3 units back.

This did mean that 485 points of ossiarch destroyed 1000 points of moulder which did feel bad

My general Trikix the Taxidermist survived both games though!

1) no there isn’t really a reason why a verminlord for clan moulder doesn’t quite exist.

Before the end times there was actually just the verminlord.

a kind of verminlord a daemon of the horned rat.

they didn’t really have anything that specifically screamed out a certain clan.

with the end times so did the different aspects of the horned rat incarnate as the different verminlord we today know and love.

froma fluff perspective there are more kinds of verminlord then we even know.

there was apparently even a small shortstory in the end time thanqoul book where the shadow council met (a council representing the council of 13 just with only members of higher verminlords including skreech verminking who leads them)

there it was a small mention of verminlord guards, so the possibi of there being verminlords that have the aspects of techno magic (clan skryre) and fleshcrafting could in theory exist.

especially when we can remember that some of these verminlords once were no more then mortal skaven, that did apparently something the horned rat was amused about. 
 

also the verminlord deceiver that was assigned to clan mors was extremely fond of Queek head taker. Which was pretty interesting.

And  at some point we even learn that skarsnik has in fact killed one of these daemons before,

of which the skull still hangs on his private chambers 

[Lord Krungharr]

As awesome as a Clan Skryre Verminlord would be spewing Warpfire or Warpbolts all over the place, I consider Thanquol to be a close enough proxy.  But it could be amazing if they just constructed a mech-version of a Verminlord.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Lord Krungharr ...or a mecha version of a Mega Gargant. How 'bout them apples? Give the ol' mercenary a try. 

[Lord Krungharr]

18 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@Lord Krungharr ...or a mecha version of a Mega Gargant. How 'bout them apples? Give the ol' mercenary a try. 

I'm bitter about that....I made a Skryre MegaGargant, not realizing a couple years ago that I couldn't even use it with my army, lest the battleline options not work.  So I ended up selling it.  And now of course....oh well.  I could make another, I have 2 Plague Furnace kits.

[W1tchhunter]

Anyone here a big brained pro player? I'm at a 2 dayer this weekend and just got my pairing. 

I'm against a Mega Gargant Breaker list. I've never played gargants but on face value the list looks perfectly geared to smash my army back to there original pieces

This is his list

Army Faction: Sons of Behemat

- Army Type: Breaker Tribe

- Triumphs: Inspired

LEADER

1 x Gatebreaker (520)*

- Artefacts: Amberbone Totem

1 x Gatebreaker (520)*

- General

- Command Traits: Monstrously Tough

- Artefacts: Vial of Manticore Venom

1 x Warstomper (450)**

1 x Warstomper (450)**

- Artefacts: Glowy Shield of Protectiness

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Bosses of the Stomp

- Magnificent

**Bosses of the Stomp

- Magnificent

TOTAL POINTS: (1940/2000)

And mine 

- Army Faction: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
- Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Master Moulder (90)*
- General
- Command Traits: Moulder Supreme
- Things-catcher
- Artefacts of Power: Foulhide
Master Moulder (90)*
- Warpstone-tipped Lash
- Artefacts of Power: Rabid Crown
Master Moulder (90)*
- Warpstone-tipped Lash
Grey Seer (125)*
- Spells: Death Frenzy
BATTLELINE
Rat Ogors (280)**
Rat Ogors (280)**
Giant Rats (180)**
BEHEMOTH
Hell Pit Abomination (245)
- Prized Creations: Accelerated Regeneration
Hell Pit Abomination (245)
- Prized Creations: Toughened Sinews
Hell Pit Abomination (245)
- Prized Creations: Lumbering Behemoth
OTHER
Rat Swarms (55)*
Rat Swarms (55)*
TERRAIN
1 x Gnawhole (0)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord
**Bounty Hunters
TOTAL POINTS: 1980/2000

 

[Sigmarusvult]

I play Gargant so here are my two cents:

Warstomper are good against horde, you have none, still they have a lot of attacks. Gatebreakers deal the most damage but they hit on 4+.

 Be particularly careful about the gatebreakers with the totem (he can run and charge) also his sub faction means that he can make one of his gate breakers  charge 3d6 for one cp so take this into consideration when you deploy your army, also all megas move ten inches.

You have many units, take advantage of this, make sure he can’t reach them all in one spot, force him to split his gargant and focus your helpit on one gargant  at a time. Be watchful of his duplex monstrous action though.

(it is a monstrous action specific to mega gargant, it works only against monster: on a 3+ he get to reposition  your monster at half a inch from the mega performing the monstrous action, it also deal d3 mw, the negative part for him is that if he either successfully roll a 3+ or fail,  his mega suffer -1 to hit, which is a big debuf for megas)

Anything  that debuff his  hit or wound rolls is a must for you because that change their stats drastically.

Mega gargants  might look scary but they are super swingy and are terrible on battle tactics, especially with the new season.

I would also use the Gnawhole to teleport  units in his backyard, remember that even if he smashed a gnawhole, you can still teleport to it but not from it ( smashing a terrain only remove the warscroll abilities, not the battle trait)  and force him to waste one of his gargant to keep his home objectives 

Megas have big base, take advantage of it to block him with terrains ( smash to rubble doesn’t remove terrains) but remember that megas can move over your non monster units when  they do a normal move, a run and retreat as long as they  can finish their move more than 3” away from your units.

[DocKeule]

The main issue against SoB is usually scoring points. In my experience an tournaments SoB players tend to park their giants on the objectives and in many scenarios is is hard to kill them off fast enough. 

[W1tchhunter]

34 minutes ago, Sigmarusvult said:

I play Gargant so here are my two cents:

Warstomper are good against horde, you have none, still they have a lot of attacks. Gatebreakers deal the most damage but they hit on 4+.

 Be particularly careful about the gatebreakers with the totem (he can run and charge) also his sub faction means that he can make one of his gate breakers  charge 3d6 for one cp so take this into consideration when you deploy your army, also all megas move ten inches.

You have many units, take advantage of this, make sure he can’t reach them all in one spot, force him to split his gargant and focus your helpit on one gargant  at a time. Be watchful of his duplex monstrous action though.

(it is a monstrous action specific to mega gargant, it works only against monster: on a 3+ he get to reposition  your monster at half a inch from the mega performing the monstrous action, it also deal d3 mw, the negative part for him is that if he either successfully roll a 3+ or fail,  his mega suffer -1 to hit, which is a big debuf for megas)

Anything  that debuff his  hit or wound rolls is a must for you because that change their stats drastically.

Mega gargants  might look scary but they are super swingy and are terrible on battle tactics, especially with the new season.

I would also use the Gnawhole to teleport  units in his backyard, remember that even if he smashed a gnawhole, you can still teleport to it but not from it ( smashing a terrain only remove the warscroll abilities, not the battle trait)  and force him to waste one of his gargant to keep his home objectives 

Megas have big base, take advantage of it to block him with terrains ( smash to rubble doesn’t remove terrains) but remember that megas can move over your non monster units when  they do a normal move, a run and retreat as long as they  can finish their move more than 3” away from your units.

It's the Roar Monstrous action I'm most worried about, I thought initially the giant rats would be great and pinning one down for a turn due to death Frenzy. But there Bravery is a 3 so I'll likely lose more than half of them before combat even starts. 

How would I best use the hellpits then, send one with a master Moulder to each gargant or try and gang up on one gargant at a time?

 

Also a question regarding that artefact, it says on the page that weapons with a -1 rend become 0. Does that mean -2 and more doesn't get worsened.