AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[DocKeule]

These articles are really poorly written. Half of them, reference old versions of rules and abilities that have been updated months ago. Unless they do a massive rollback their "experts" don't seem to have been to active playing lately. 

[umpac]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

These articles are really poorly written. Half of them, reference old versions of rules and abilities that have been updated months ago. Unless they do a massive rollback their "experts" don't seem to have been to active playing lately. 

Yeah its obvious that these articles aren't written for competitive players, or even casual veterans. They're made for new players to hype up each faction, introduce their lore and general concepts, and give a short introduction to how some units are affected by the new rules (which is falsely labeled "big winners"). Just look at the seraphon article, the "big winners" were Knights and Bastiladon and both were severely nerfed by 3.0. I like them for their lore summary but the tactic aspect of them are only good for a laugh.

[DocKeule]

Even then they could at the very least be up to date.

Well GW's publications are mediocre at best. The German translations often are almost unreadable.

[Coyote]

I’m pleased with how the Stormvermin are now in points, and with All Out Attack, or All Out Defense having <20 Models or < 10 Models doesn’t matter as much.

I had a 4 drop list yesterday, All Bells, Clanrats and Stormvermin in the list. I lost by 2 points at bottom of 3 and would have won if another turn as I’d pretty much shut down his generating more points with my turn.

Going second is Huge.

[Skreech Verminking]

So the article is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/28/for-the-skaven-the-new-edition-is-a-numbers-game-and-they-have-the-advantage/

 

it is nothing special, at least not something we already know.

 

[Cosmicsheep]

7 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So the article is out:

Stormfiends = Biggest Winners. 

I'm sure we've all been thinking that... Secretly 😂😂

[Skreech Verminking]

27 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Stormfiends = Biggest Winners. 

I'm sure we've all been thinking that... Secretly 😂😂

Nah,

I’d say, that the biggest winners, would be clanrats and the plague priest on foot.

these guys literally became winners.

Stormfiends just always were.

Sure they did become better, but when they already were pretty good, they aren’t really gaining too much in addition, unlike clanrats who are now one of the ultimate meatshields units in their new big size of 60.

or the plague priest who became, from never being seen, the ultimate foot support hero

if that isn’t a big winner then I don’t know what is

Edited June 28, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Orchid89]

While the Broken Realms box is still available do you guys think I should buy another one to have x12 Stormfiends? Or are the x9 I have enough?

I haven't really played yet but I plan to play mono Skryre when I do.

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

While the Broken Realms box is still available do you guys think I should buy another one to have x12 Stormfiends? Or are the x9 I have enough?

I haven't really played yet but I plan to play mono Skryre when I do.

9 are probably enough.

Yet if you really enjoy painting these guys or just want to play 12 stormfiends at some point, I’d just go for it, maybe it'll be exactly the list that will dominate the meta.

I actually just came up with one.

It includes:

Heroes:175p

1Arch warlock:175p spells:mmmwp, general: deranged inventor, Artefacts: Talisman of destiny.

battleline:1705p

9Stormfiends:945p

6stormfiends:630p

5skryre acolytes:65p

5skryre acolytes:65p

others:75p

Warpgrinder weapon team:75p

Total points:1955p

yeah, this list has a ton of fire power.

And 15 stormfiends😋😜

Edited June 28, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Orchid89]

13 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

9 are probably enough.

Yet if you really enjoy painting these guys or just want to play 12 stormfiends at some point, I’d just go for it, maybe it'll be exactly the list that will dominate the meta.

I actually just came up with one.

It includes:

Heroes:175p

1Arch warlock:175p spells:mmmwp, general: deranged inventor, Artefacts: Talisman of destiny.

battleline:1705p

9Stormfiends:945p

6stormfiends:630p

5skryre acolytes:65p

5skryre acolytes:65p

others:75p

Warpgrinder weapon team:75p

Total points:1955p

yeah, this list has a ton of fire power.

And 15 stormfiends😋😜

15!
haha, that would be a sight to see.

I think Ill get the extra x3, I think they will be a lot better this edition.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 minute ago, Orchid89 said:

15!
haha, that would be a sight to see.

I think Ill get the extra x3, I think they will be a lot better this edition.

Yeah, considering that I only have 12 and 15 is the max. Number that is currently possible, I really have to get myself another 3 more fiends as well.

can’t have it that there’s a list out there, that i can’t play, b’cause of lack of models

[Shirtripper]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah, considering that I only have 12 and 15 is the max. Number that is currently possible, I really have to get myself another 3 more fiends as well.

can’t have it that there’s a list out there, that i can’t play, b’cause of lack of models

 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Ugh, this community article hurts. Giving away all of our tricks! Also, they never should have given us 9 stormfiends, its TOO good and is going to get the points bat. Yeah, yeah, I know its like half an army list and its "self-balancing", but fiends got a target on their back mark my words.

Also, I want to play the 12 I have, so yeah. 

[shalvan]

12 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

9 are probably enough.

Yet if you really enjoy painting these guys or just want to play 12 stormfiends at some point, I’d just go for it, maybe it'll be exactly the list that will dominate the meta.

I actually just came up with one.

It includes:

Heroes:175p

1Arch warlock:175p spells:mmmwp, general: deranged inventor, Artefacts: Talisman of destiny.

battleline:1705p

9Stormfiends:945p

6stormfiends:630p

5skryre acolytes:65p

5skryre acolytes:65p

others:75p

Warpgrinder weapon team:75p

Total points:1955p

yeah, this list has a ton of fire power.

And 15 stormfiends😋😜

It actually even has about 110 wounds. 95 on the Stormfiends, 6 on a warlock, 10 on the schools acolytes and 3 on the grinder. What would you use the grinder for? Is deranged inventor used in shooting?

[Nikobot]

Stormfiends should have a decent place but I think people are expecting too much.

A few key things to remember :
They are amazingly ****** at shooting without buffs       e.g. no buffs = 3x SFs ave 3.8 damage (at 315pts... wow)
They are really good fully buffed                                   e.g. MMWP, spark = 3x SFs ave 14.4 damage
Their main damage output is their ratlings and they are only 12" range and -1 rend in an edition with a lot more armour
They have gone up 55pts for 3
They dont have a champion to access CAs, they need a foot hero for all buffs
Unleash hell means the only buff they can have up is MMWP or vigordust still in effect from your previous hero phase. No sparks, no deranged inventor, no all-out-attack

Not to be a downer, but these guys are really polar opposites when buffed and unbuffed, and waaaay overcosted when not buffed. 
There's too many things out there that can squish our heroes for this to be a no-brainer, even an archwarlock with 5+ ward is only an effective 9w with a 3+ save without further buffs. You probably have to really invest into an extra warlock and protection if you are going 6+ fiends which adds further to their effective cost.

Just something to keep in mind.

[Laststand]

58 minutes ago, Nikobot said:

Stormfiends should have a decent place but I think people are expecting too much.

A few key things to remember :
They are amazingly ****** at shooting without buffs       e.g. no buffs = 3x SFs ave 3.8 damage (at 315pts... wow)
They are really good fully buffed                                   e.g. MMWP, spark = 3x SFs ave 14.4 damage
Their main damage output is their ratlings and they are only 12" range and -1 rend in an edition with a lot more armour
They have gone up 55pts for 3
They dont have a champion to access CAs, they need a foot hero for all buffs
Unleash hell means the only buff they can have up is MMWP or vigordust still in effect from your previous hero phase. No sparks, no deranged inventor, no all-out-attack

Not to be a downer, but these guys are really polar opposites when buffed and unbuffed, and waaaay overcosted when not buffed. 
There's too many things out there that can squish our heroes for this to be a no-brainer, even an archwarlock with 5+ ward is only an effective 9w with a 3+ save without further buffs. You probably have to really invest into an extra warlock and protection if you are going 6+ fiends which adds further to their effective cost.

Just something to keep in mind.

I agree. The 20% points increase just makes this a larger disparity. Short ranges on ratlings and coherancy with such big bases is going to limit shooting. 

[umpac]

1 hour ago, Nikobot said:

A few key things to remember :
They are amazingly ****** at shooting without buffs       e.g. no buffs = 3x SFs ave 3.8 damage (at 315pts... wow)
They are really good fully buffed                                   e.g. MMWP, spark = 3x SFs ave 14.4 damage
Their main damage output is their ratlings and they are only 12" range and -1 rend in an edition with a lot more armour
They have gone up 55pts for 3
They dont have a champion to access CAs, they need a foot hero for all buffs
Unleash hell means the only buff they can have up is MMWP or vigordust still in effect from your previous hero phase. No sparks, no deranged inventor, no all-out-attack

Good points but this was always the case. The need for a babysitting character for CA's isnt really an issue since you need one for sparks and MMMWP anyway. The lack of sparks when firing during UH is great point and a big downside but Vigordust is a good way to work around the -1 to hit from UH and with MMMWP up a unit of 6 still puts 16 wounds into 4+ which is bonkers for a single CP. Without MMMWP their damage drops to 7.67 which is always something I guess and with no buffs at all it goes down to 5,11 which is pretty tragic for a 630pts unit, but again that's how they always were.

Saves being better in 3.0 just increases the value of the -3 rend from Windlaunchers.

2 hours ago, Nikobot said:

There's too many things out there that can squish our heroes for this to be a no-brainer, even an archwarlock with 5+ ward is only an effective 9w with a 3+ save without further buffs. You probably have to really invest into an extra warlock and protection if you are going 6+ fiends which adds further to their effective cost.

All woods/forests are going to make it easier to hide the warlocks early and we always have Gnawholes and skitterleap which allows us to deploy in a safe manner without being out of position early. Obviously no plan is bullet proof (that does double for skaven), and you might have to rely on getting spells off, but at least we have the tools to work around those issues, unlike many other factions.

I agree that 2 warlocks are going to be essential in some match ups if you want your stormfiends to the heavy lifting, especially since you probably don't have an artifect slot open for the ward save. It might add further to your investment into stormfiends but if you take other synergistic pieces like ratling guns or WLCs then you still get a lot out of them. Much like you I think that Stormfiends aren't going to skyrocket the Skaven into top tier contention or even take them out of mid tier, but Stormfiends were arguably the strongest list in 2.0 and held up well in 3.0, unlike a lot of other stuff in skaven.

[MathV]

Why no one is considering a warpfire spam list? I think that 4 warpfire would kill most units apart of monster, but we have Jezzails for that and the new priest can bless our clanrats to protect them and make them stay alive. Also we could take multiple priests since we could bless multiple times, since prayers are not the same as spell.

 

[Cosmicsheep]

25 minutes ago, MathV said:

Why no one is considering a warpfire spam list?

@MathV we briefly touched on this subject a few pages back (210 - 213) It's definitely something that is going to see alot more table time than previously, but as discussed, the move towards smaller units and monsters means this isn't going to be an auto-include.

Also, chanting the same prayer multiple times is prohibited by rule 20.1

Edited June 29, 2021 by Cosmicsheep

[MathV]

Oh yes my bad sorry 

And Thank You

So I guess it will be grey seer + plague priest for protection. If the meta goes ultra msu, monster no warpfire. Otherwise... 

[Cosmicsheep]

I think WFT will still be used against armies such as BoneReapers, Lumineth etc.. even Fyreslayers & Cities where units of 10 or 20 are common. Not so good against Sons of Behemat or Sigmarines 

I will be taking a couple in most of my games to start with

One tactic would be to warp-grinder a unit of clanrats to within 9" of an enemy and pop out the WTF. You could then attempt a charge with the clanrats to protect the WFT for another turn, or else use Unleash Hell if the enemy charge you.

Another tactic would be to pop out the WFT just behind your unit of clanrats (hopefully sitting on the objective) for the Unleash Hell

Just remember, Unleash Hell needs a hero within range to issue the CP.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Cosmicsheep

[Coyote]

20 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So the article is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/28/for-the-skaven-the-new-edition-is-a-numbers-game-and-they-have-the-advantage/

 

it is nothing special, at least not something we already know.

 

I’m holding on to the last hope the casting value of WLV might drop below 8.

[MathV]

Do you 

50 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

One tactic would be to warp-grinder a unit of clanrats to within 9" of an enemy and pop out the WTF. You could then attempt a charge with the clanrats to protect the WFT for another turn, or else use Unleash Hell if the enemy charge you.

Do you think the warp grinder is needed? If you take 3 blobs of 40 + the priest/grey seer wouldn't that be enough to assure that they will get to the objective alive to fire off. I'm saying that cause you could take one more warpfire that way, and that could be a lot more damage

[Cosmicsheep]

1 minute ago, MathV said:

Do you think the warp grinder is needed?

Not 100% necessary, but there has been a change in the way objectives are captured in AoS 3. You no longer need to capture the objectives that are in your territory in turn 1. This might mean that enemy units advance more quickly and leave space at the back. Having the grinder gives you an extra bonus of being able to capture these objectives with a screen of clanrats.

And if your opponent is smart and expects this, then they have to think about leaving one or more units behind to cover these objectives. With some smartly placed gnawholes you have your opponent stretched out across the board trying to cover all the bases.

Skaven have to be cunning and devious

[MathV]

 

1 hour ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Not 100% necessary, but there has been a change in the way objectives are captured in AoS 3. You no longer need to capture the objectives that are in your territory in turn 1. This might mean that enemy units advance more quickly and leave space at the back. Having the grinder gives you an extra bonus of being able to capture these objectives with a screen of clanrats.

And if your opponent is smart and expects this, then they have to think about leaving one or more units behind to cover these objectives. With some smartly placed gnawholes you have your opponent stretched out across the board trying to cover all the bases.

Skaven have to be cunning and devious

Since you seem knowledgeable, now you have made me really curious. What would be your list. Would you share it?