Damian Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Are there any armies without summoning abilities? and how do they compete against armies like LoN what can summon up whole units onto the Battlefield? (My friends death armies are stupidly powerful, so much so that several people refuse to play against them. Since the new Meta is all about the Summons, just looking for the armies to avoid that have no summoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizrah Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 " Meta is all about the Summons " LOL The only army relying purely on summoning are Seraphon... And they didint have to. I agree thats LoN CA to summon entire unit again is fairly stupid and overpowered but they didint rely on it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, Damian said: Are there any armies without summoning abilities? and how do they compete against armies like LoN what can summon up whole units onto the Battlefield? (My friends death armies are stupidly powerful, so much so that several people refuse to play against them. Since the new Meta is all about the Summons, just looking for the armies to avoid that have no summoning. How long have you got? *Non-Hammers SCE *Kharadron Overlords *FyreSlayers *Beastclaw Raiders *Ironjaws (bar one specific battalion) *Daughters of Khaine *Idoneth? That's just ones with a Tome off the top of my head. I think it'd be a lot easier to list the Allegiances that do have summoning. From the GHB *Dispossessed *Slaves to Darkness *Wanderers *Darkling Covens *Freeguild Not near my books at the moment, so that's just from memory. Probably others too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronWilson Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Out of the current tier one armies, DoK are in a league of there own as S++ tier and don't summon at all. LoN, Sylvaneth & stormcast can and / or bring units back, Idoneth can't summon at all but are tier one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Depends on your meta. Summoning is certainly powerful, especially the armies that can bring almost 1000 extra points in a game. From a competitive standpoint its just another tool in the box since all of our armies are built to be as powerful as possible and can deal with it, but if you're casual or playing an army that does not have a powerful build then yeah I can see how it would be frustrating to play against. In that case as much as it may annoy to say it, you have to either accept that you're going to get beaten most of the time, or buy an army that has the tools to stay competitive with the other powerful lists. The question you need to ask yourself is what makes the armies that are tournament tier that don't summon able to handle the armies that summon and then go from there to netlist or emulate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Just now, Dead Scribe said: In that case as much as it may annoy to say it, you have to either accept that you're going to get beaten most of the time, or buy an army that has the tools to stay competitive with the other powerful lists. Absolutely not true. The fact that people in his hobby group don't want to play with LON player indicates that they are able to play nice non-competitive games. That aside, I recommend playing skaven - with new battletome we will be good enough and two warpfire throwers (with a bit of luck) can eradicate entire unit of Skeleton Warriors. And we don't have summoning, just Gnawholes for teleporting our units form one place to another on the battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Thats just it though, you have to exclude players because they can't figure out how to have competitive games against that person, either willfully by fielding weaker armies, or non-willfully by just not being able to figure out how to get around summoning (and against LON thats typically about keeping units near the graveyards so they can't use them). The recommendation to play skaven is exactly my point. Play a list that has the tools to be as powerful as the legion of nagash player's list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Remember its not just the army its how its used. The Legion player might just be better than the other players at the club and the army power difference only highlights it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 Well, we are all relatively new players and still learning, just seems LoN (abilities and spells) outclass the rest of our armies making playing against them unfun. In the group we have Stormcast, Kharadon Overloads, Skaven (who's very excited for the new battletome), Beastmen, Ironjaws and i'm on the lookout for a new army (as I was into Space marines for a time). I was thinking of DoK, as I just love the Snake women models (best in the game imho) but also been told by my local game store manager that the Melusai snake women are not competitive and that you need to use only Wych aeves to be competitive (which i'm not bothered about) and that the whole army will get nerfed into oblivion soon, so avoid at all costs, which sounded crazy when I see how powerful LoN are . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I wiill say Kharadon Overlords, and Iron jaws are definitely going to be outclassed nearly every time. Beastmen are middle of the road so likely will also be frustrated against the Legion of Nagash if that player is playing to its potential. Essentially I'm still of the opinion to not pick those weaker factions but if you're new you don't know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedraxis Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Damian said: Well, we are all relatively new players and still learning, just seems LoN (abilities and spells) outclass the rest of our armies making playing against them unfun. In the group we have Stormcast, Kharadon Overloads, Skaven (who's very excited for the new battletome), Beastmen, Ironjaws and i'm on the lookout for a new army (as I was into Space marines for a time). I was thinking of DoK, as I just love the Snake women models (best in the game imho) but also been told by my local game store manager that the Melusai snake women are not competitive and that you need to use only Wych aeves to be competitive (which i'm not bothered about) and that the whole army will get nerfed into oblivion soon, so avoid at all costs, which sounded crazy when I see how powerful LoN are . Sounds like you shouldn't listen to your store manager too much and play what you like. Most models and armies in AoS have wat it takes to compete with everything, albeit at a slight disadvantage. How well you play the missions and how your dice work out will determine the result of the game, using good units can make it easier but there are very few units that are straight up better then others. Nothing to worry about, especially for new players. Definitely play Snake ladies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Damian said: Since the new Meta is all about the Summons Yes agree with you,in top 15 we have as 10 or more armys that sumons. It was easy to see that free sumon was going to umbalance all,and it have done it. Best example this last lvo won by fec with dragon spam sumoning as 700 free points of units. Every dwarf army havent sumon and due to thos they are useless this edition. Dispossesed have 30% win rate,fyreslayers are botton also but have some as 45% win rate,kharadron are botton also with 35% or so Dark elfs and high elfs havent sumon also,but order draconis and phoenyx temple are pretty good and can put a figth vs sumons amys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedraxis Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Also, a common misconception is that summoning is this OP extra bonus armies get over others. All it is is a way to get extra value out of your pieces/army, just like rerolls, +stat bonuses, teleports, scenery and other bonuses. They are all calculated in the cost of units, just like all other abilities. It just appears more powerful because it directly adds points, its very visual and sometimes can have a big impact at once. There are 2 examples I would change because they feel a little off in their design: Branchwraith (summoning 100 pts of dryads every turn with a 80 point wizard) and Grimghast Reapers (or Nighthaunt in general) making use of gravesites that are designed around weak/expensive troops like skeletons & zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutter Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, Damian said: but also been told by my local game store manager that the Melusai snake women are not competitive and that you need to use only Wych aeves to be competitive Haha, that guy either wants to sell you (seriously overpriced) witches or he's a right tool. Melusai are very powerful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 52 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said: Thats just it though, you have to exclude players because they can't figure out how to have competitive games against that person, either willfully by fielding weaker armies, or non-willfully by just not being able to figure out how to get around summoning (and against LON thats typically about keeping units near the graveyards so they can't use them). The recommendation to play skaven is exactly my point. Play a list that has the tools to be as powerful as the legion of nagash player's list. That’s not it. You exclude matchups that you don’t have fun playing. It’s nothing personal in that example. It’s just the match up isn’t fun. Nobody forces you to play, if one or both players don’t enjoy it don’t play. The other way around also true. If you solely enjoy the competitive elements of the hobby and one opponent doesn’t really offer any resistance nor does he intent to improve to that level. It’s more than fair to not play each other anymore. Even if didn’t mind getting his ass kicked. You play this hobby for fun, in the way that’s fun for you. And there is nothing wrong with refusing an invitation to play if that’s not going to be fun for you. No matter the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronWilson Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Yeah Melusai are fantastic, they can still receive all the buffs that witch elves (even witchbrew) hit like a freight train and have some really nice innate speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Sedraxis said: Also, a common misconception is that summoning is this OP extra bonus armies get over others. All it is is a way to get extra value out of your pieces/army, just like rerolls, +stat bonuses, teleports, scenery and other bonuses. They are all calculated in the cost of units, just like all other abilities. It just appears more powerful because it directly adds points, its very visual and sometimes can have a big impact at once. There are 2 examples I would change because they feel a little off in their design: Branchwraith (summoning 100 pts of dryads every turn with a 80 point wizard) and Grimghast Reapers (or Nighthaunt in general) making use of gravesites that are designed around weak/expensive troops like skeletons & zombies. I would say that getting potentially an extra 1000 points in a game is more than just a little bit of an advantage. I don't think that the units in legion of nagash are costed more than they should be to compensate either. If anything there are units that are undercost still. However I don't see them as that big a deal because to shut them down you put models near their summoning points so they can't summon with them. If you let them recycle their models, its not just a little bit of an advantage or appearing more powerful. It *is* more powerful and will often swing a game, and thats on a player for letting them get to do it. It would be broken if there was no way to counter it, but there is a straight forward way to counter it, which is why it doesn't really get used a ton at the professional levels of play. At the casual levels of play though it will straight up dominate people until they learn how to play properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Only a fast glance at thehonestwargamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/5pluswins.png Free sumon armys: have 13 armys in top 15 and only 3 out of this top(seraphon,death due to nobody play as death due to lon and skavens that with new tome gonna enter to the top) Non free sumon armys: have 2 armys in top 15( dok and destruction) and 24 out of this top Btw idoneths have free sumons reviving tralls,also stormcast revive models too even if it is low So nobody can argue that free sumons isnt umbalanced when the 90% of the armys with free sumom are top 15 and the 90% of non sumon armys are out of top 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, Mutter said: Haha, that guy either wants to sell you (seriously overpriced) witches or he's a right tool. Melusai are very powerful! Funny thing is that an army of Witches costs about the same as an army of Melusai - so either way the store owner wins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecktron Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, prochuvi said: Only a fast glance at thehonestwargamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/5pluswins.png Free sumon armys: have 13 armys in top 15 and only 3 out of this top(seraphon,death due to nobody play as death due to lon and skavens that with new tome gonna enter to the top) Non free sumon armys: have 2 armys in top 15( dok and destruction) and 24 out of this top Btw idoneths have free sumons reviving tralls,also stormcast revive models too even if it is low So nobody can argue that free sumons isnt umbalanced when the 90% of the armys with free sumom are top 15 and the 90% of non sumon armys are out of top 15 Id argue pretty hard against counting bringing back models as "summoning". Thats healing. You can bring back only what you paid for and when the unit is destroyed they are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedraxis Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, prochuvi said: Only a fast glance at thehonestwargamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/5pluswins.png Free sumon armys: have 13 armys in top 15 and only 3 out of this top(seraphon,death due to nobody play as death due to lon and skavens that with new tome gonna enter to the top) Non free sumon armys: have 2 armys in top 15( dok and destruction) and 24 out of this top Btw idoneths have free sumons reviving tralls,also stormcast revive models too even if it is low So nobody can argue that free sumons isnt umbalanced when the 90% of the armys with free sumom are top 15 and the 90% of non sumon armys are out of top 15 Those stats have nothing to do with summoning, just overall army performance. It means literally nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Healing only heal wounds,bring back a model is sumon. And you havent paid for that model so it is free. Lork relyktor heal wound and isnt sumon, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbok Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Summoning is whate broke AoS 2.0. An otherwise brilliant core book. Armies I played close matches against before, I now almost auto lose to. (I play casual). 20 plaguebearers at the end of a tight game= you lose. 500 points ghosts coming back= you lose. 500 point free seraphon= you lose. I still have close games against non-summoning armies though... Grimbok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecktron Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 minute ago, prochuvi said: Healing only heal wounds,bring back a model is sumon. And you havent paid for that model so it is free. Lork relyktor heal wound and isnt sumon, You have paid for the model. The unit can never have more models at the end of the battle than you had at the start, you dont add power to a unit you only return it to its starting strength. Models are just a abstract way to display power. Bringing back a model in a unit is functionally the same as healing a monster and bringing it back into a higher wound bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I can see that. You definitely have to have something to compensate or else you really have no chance. But the designers have given armies other tools like mortal wounds and ambushing / teleporting to compensate for this. Some armies just simply don't have those tools right now and should be avoided unless you are ok with losing. I hope that the game gets more lists that all have the ability to hang in there. I used to not really want that but I can see how its a bad thing in its current state because we have had a few new people ourselves buy armies that just cant hang with us because they didn't know how to listbuild properly and its discouraging for them to lose a game based on what models they like or don't like who don't share my opinion of play whats powerful, sell off whats not. Really in my opinion whenever a new player shows interest in the game, they should be taught how to properly listbuild before they spend any money so they don't buy dud units that fail. Listbuilding is too important to not consider in the beginning of someone's gaming career and wastes money and time if they don't know how to do it proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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