AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion

[Batch]

4 hours ago, Garamond said:

At first, I planned on a Hag list, seeing how she's the only troggoth wizard. But I'm wondering how capable this list would be. It depends on getting -1 to hit on several enemy units, and doing mortal wounds all around, while just pummeling in melee combat, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC.

 

Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Pulverising Grip 
- Artefact : Rageblade 
Mollog (170)
UNITS
3 x Dankhold Troggoths (660)
6 x Fellwater Troggoths (320)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
BATTALIONS
Troggherd (180)

1950 ... Could potentially take the extra CP.

 

Swap Mollog out for a Fungoid and Madcap Sharman. Same points.

If youre running a troop of Dankhold you need to Hand of Gork them in, it would be absolutely devastating.

[Garamond]

1 minute ago, Batch said:

Swap Mollog out for a Fungoid and Madcap Sharman. Same points.

If youre running a troop of Dankhold you need to Hand of Gork them in, it would be absolutely devastating.

Good point! I love the fungoid model, so it works for me.

[Batch]

2 hours ago, Garamond said:

Good point! I love the fungoid model, so it works for me.

Oh and if you really like Mollogs model Im pretty sure he is the same sized base as a Dankhold if you still want to use the model, I think most would accept that.

[meet.the.doctor]

Could anyone check if Fellwater heads fit Dankhold? I am not sure if I like the new trolls' heads. If it could be swapped would fit my 15 Fellwaters + Hag army

[Garamond]

11 hours ago, Batch said:

Oh and if you really like Mollogs model Im pretty sure he is the same sized base as a Dankhold if you still want to use the model, I think most would accept that.

Haha! Yeah, to be honest, I'm basically only trying to play him for his model.  Since his stats are not optimized for large battles. But that is a good compromise.

 

I was thinking of swapping him for the fungoid and 20 grots. I know it's not a lot, but they can tag objectives, and provide look-out sir for the 2 heroes. Also netters add another -1 to hit, which is what I'd be losing for not taking Mollog.

[Malakree]

I'm really not sure about mollog. I almost want to say at 170 he's better than a standard dankhold at 220.

On the otherhand I'm not sure he competes with rockguts.

One thing I would say. He's the absolute best choice to fit the +1 bravery aura into a none trogg army. Great utility, the aura and super cheap.

[dirkdragonslayer]

How tall is the Dankhold Troggboss? I have a Throgg that I know isn't big enough, so I want to do a big decorative base to make up the height and width.

[kenshin620]

Anyone who plays with 3rd party models use Hordes Trolls? A certain site is having a massive Warmahordes sale and I've always liked the look of their trolls. Maybe wanted to use Mulg as a count as Mollog. Are they about the same size? I know Mulg is fairly chunky but not too tall.

[Hannibal]

14 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Anyone who plays with 3rd party models use Hordes Trolls? A certain site is having a massive Warmahordes sale and I've always liked the look of their trolls. Maybe wanted to use Mulg as a count as Mollog. Are they about the same size? I know Mulg is fairly chunky but not too tall.

Mulg should be too tall to represent Mollog, though he might fit for a Trogboss. Best Hordes Trolls might be the light Trolls like Slug Troll, Winter Troll and the like.

Reaper´s Bones Series is full of really cheap yet characterful trolls of the right size to represent troggoth units in AoS. I can highly recommend these.

[Clanan]

15 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Anyone who plays with 3rd party models use Hordes Trolls? A certain site is having a massive Warmahordes sale and I've always liked the look of their trolls. Maybe wanted to use Mulg as a count as Mollog. Are they about the same size? I know Mulg is fairly chunky but not too tall.

I'm doing something similar with the Trollbloods Mountain King for a Troggoth Hag. I might stick a shaman on his shoulder, an idea mentioned a few pages back. I dislike the FW model and love the Mountain King, who is on a 120mm base whereas hers is 120x92mm so close enough.

Speaking of, what are people's thoughts/experiences with the Hag? I question whether she's worth the points vs. ~6 rockguts + 1 shaman for 400. I do love big models though. Below is a compilation of her full HP profile & degraded profile vs. 6 rockguts (because I like them more than fellwaters). All against save of 4 rerolling 1s:

Happy hag:

Sad hag:

Two units of 3 Rockguts:

Their profile includes the boulder throw (2x 50% chance for d3). Seems like their lack of degradation plus higher damage, along with a shaman for magic, might make it an even trade.

[5kaven5lave]

31 minutes ago, Clanan said:

I'm doing something similar with the Trollbloods Mountain King for a Troggoth Hag. I might stick a shaman on his shoulder, an idea mentioned a few pages back. I dislike the FW model and love the Mountain King, who is on a 120mm base whereas hers is 120x92mm so close enough.

Speaking of, what are people's thoughts/experiences with the Hag? I question whether she's worth the points vs. ~6 rockguts + 1 shaman for 400. I do love big models though. Below is a compilation of her full HP profile & degraded profile vs. 6 rockguts (because I like them more than fellwaters). All against save of 4 rerolling 1s:

Happy hag:

Sad hag:

Two units of 3 Rockguts:

Their profile includes the boulder throw (2x 50% chance for d3). Seems like their lack of degradation plus higher damage, along with a shaman for magic, might make it an even trade.

Great numbers, thanks man. I feel the Hag outperforms all alternatives in terms of pure sex appeal though, so keeping her in 😉 

Been thinking about painting mine in the pale white colour scheme the Troggboss comes in on the box, think it’ll be cool to have them matching. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by 5kaven5lave
Can’t spell.

[NemoVonUtopia]

28 minutes ago, Clanan said:

I'm doing something similar with the Trollbloods Mountain King for a Troggoth Hag. I might stick a shaman on his shoulder, an idea mentioned a few pages back. I dislike the FW model and love the Mountain King, who is on a 120mm base whereas hers is 120x92mm so close enough.

Speaking of, what are people's thoughts/experiences with the Hag? I question whether she's worth the points vs. ~6 rockguts + 1 shaman for 400. I do love big models though. Below is a compilation of her full HP profile & degraded profile vs. 6 rockguts (because I like them more than fellwaters). All against save of 4 rerolling 1s:

Happy hag:

Sad hag:

Two units of 3 Rockguts:

Their profile includes the boulder throw (2x 50% chance for d3). Seems like their lack of degradation plus higher damage, along with a shaman for magic, might make it an even trade.

My personal experience with the hag is that she does a lot of damage with her vomit but not much in melee, I tend to be unlucky with hitting and my opponent makes most saves against her. She is very survivable, one game she dueled a frost lord on stone horn most of the game and hasn't died very often. Her spell is amazing but the rockguts are probably better damage wise and better for objectives.

[5kaven5lave]

15 minutes ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

My personal experience with the hag is that she does a lot of damage with her vomit but not much in melee, I tend to be unlucky with hitting and my opponent makes most saves against her. She is very survivable, one game she dueled a frost lord on stone horn most of the game and hasn't died very often. Her spell is amazing but the rockguts are probably better damage wise and better for objectives.

Yeah, your experience mirrors mine pretty closely. That vomit is lethal but melee is swingy. She’s a great tarpit with spellcasting ability. Have been using the Cauldron, would like to find some points for Cogs so she can cast another spell with it and rerolling her saves would make her even more unkillable (probably overkill but useful nonetheless).

Anyone else got any thoughts on the Batallion? Still undecided if it’s worth it. 

[Malakree]

@Clanan The primary purpose for the Hag is to have a very hard to kill wizard who can sit on objectives which require Artefacts or Wizards. She's an amazing tarpit with a great personal spell that brings a nastier than usual unbind.

As a raw damage output model she's bad, but that's not her role.

EDIT: 

26 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Anyone else got any thoughts on the Batallion? Still undecided if it’s worth it. 

Depends on your exact list and what you can do with that artefact. If you're running a lot of fellwaters it's good (I did the math a few pages back and I think it's at 18 the battalion is better than another 3) with less value for the Rockguts/Dankhold.

The list I'm building towards is this.

Quote

Heroes - 690
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General: Mighty Blow
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Skragrott (220)
Fungoid Cave Shaman (90)
Madcap shaman (80)
(If Troggherd- Artefact: Moonface Mommet)

Battleline - 1000
60 Stabbas (360)
6 Fellwater Troggoths (320)
3 Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 Rockgut Troggoths (160)

Units - 130
20 Shootas (130)

Extras - 180
20 Shootas (130)
Scrapskuttle's Aracnocauldron (50)
OR
Troggherd (180)

The big thing for me here would be the Moonface Mommet essentially giving me a free rend on something. It also puts me at 6 drops with a CP vs 10 with no CP. It also requires me to paint 20 less Shootas which is a big plus! 🤣

From here I would experiment and play around with different builds but this is my starting point.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Malakree

[5kaven5lave]

@Malakree

Aaaaah, completely forgot about the artefact. It’s almost an autoinclude for the list I’m running then, that answers that one, cheers!!

Think the list looks great, let us know how it plays out!!

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, 5kaven5lave said:

@Malakree

Aaaaah, completely forgot about the artefact. It’s almost an autoinclude for the list I’m running then, that answers that one, cheers!!

Think the list looks great, let us know how it plays out!!

I'm just sad that you can't include a second Troggboss in the battalion. As that would be the ideal.

Quote

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Artefact: Blade of Hammerhal Ghyra 
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Mollog (170)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Spell: Hand of Gork

Battleline
12 x Fellwater Troggoths (740)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)

Battalions
Troggherd (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

One Troggboss with the +1 hit/wound on his Club attack, the other with the RageGrip combo. Sure you're low wounds but it's a 2 drop list which lets you dump 12 Fellwaters into your opponents face turn 1!

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, Clanan said:

I'm doing something similar with the Trollbloods Mountain King for a Troggoth Hag. I might stick a shaman on his shoulder, an idea mentioned a few pages back. I dislike the FW model and love the Mountain King, who is on a 120mm base whereas hers is 120x92mm so close enough.

I was the one that mentioned that and I am pretty much doing the same thing.  I have a Mountain King model sitting in a box that will likely never be used for anything and it is a great model.  Mine was only half-built so I have no problems with converting him up.  I will probably be turning mine into a Rockgut version of a Troll Hag.  I have also noticed that some of the stores in my area are heavily discounting Hordes models as they are just trying to clear inventory.  There is both a Sea King and a Glacier King model that are only about $60 each (so over 50% off).  I will probably buy those as well as I think they are cool models.  The Sea King I can use for an alternate Dankhold Troggoth Hag with a bit of added fungus bits.  Or, I could make a Dankhold/Fellwater version of a Bonegrinder Gargant. 

I had been entertaining the idea for a while now of turning a Glacier King model into a Troll/Orruk version of a Bonegrinder Gargant.  Now that the models are so cheap I will probably go ahead and do it.

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Depends on your exact list and what you can do with that artefact. If you're running a lot of fellwaters it's good (I did the math a few pages back and I think it's at 18 the battalion is better than another 3) with less value for the Rockguts/Dankhold.

Something interesting to consider is that the Battalion includes Giants, and they get the bonus ability.  While the number of attacks from a giant is pretty variable, it tends to be fairly high and so it gives them more opportunity than most to get the benefit from the battalion.  Giants already hit fairly hard with a number of quality attacks and extra damage is never a bad thing.

People have various opinions of the Giant, but I think he is worth considering in the context of this battalion.  Playing Trolls we don't have a ton of options and Giants are still quite cheap for what you get.  They cost the same as a min unit of Trolls.  They are cheap enough to use as big distracting shock units and their base size is small enough that you can easily fit them into battlelines as pile-in support or second-line units.

Granted they are Giants and not Trolls, but some simple conversions and you could easily make them visually fit with the rest of the army.  I was thinking of converting up a giant specifically for use with my trolls as a giant lanky mushroom-man.

[Eevika]

Just finished my first game on the Troggoths I played scorched earth against FeC and I have to say the Trolls are pretty good he only managed to kill 4 Fellwaters and a Gargant while I managed to pretty much wipe his army. 

Highlights were definitely the Hag with Gryphfeather charm she took on the enemy Ghoul king on Zombie dragon. First round of combat she took 4 wounds and dealt 0 but when I got my turn she used her spell on the Dragon, puked 7 damage and then slammed the dragon to the ground killing it in a single round. Also Hand of Gork was amazing, Teleported my Hag to capture one objective and next turn teleported 6 Fellwaters to capture another one. Also 6 man untis of Fellwater. Oh boy are they good, 

Duds of the game were my Gargant that only dealt damage when he died  and Morks mushroom. Now I did fail at casting it twice so he didnt have anything to really hit as I had killed most of the horde stuff already at that point. Also the Troggboss failed 2 charges and only managed to fight small ghouls and of course he destroyed them but it wasnt really a test of his power.

Feeling in general after the game are that the army seems very good. The Hag with Gryphfeather charm is pretty much impossible to kill. Fellwater Troggoths also seem really good as 6 man unit throws 30 attacks a turn if they are in range to vomit on  the enemy and the ammount of damage they deal is just brutal. 

[Mutton]

I'll only ever consider the Gargant once they remove that terrible drunken stagger rule that turns even the simplest of 3-inch charges into a stressful roll.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Mutton

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Something interesting to consider is that the Battalion includes Giants, and they get the bonus ability.  While the number of attacks from a giant is pretty variable, it tends to be fairly high and so it gives them more opportunity than most to get the benefit from the battalion.  Giants already hit fairly hard with a number of quality attacks and extra damage is never a bad thing.

People have various opinions of the Giant, but I think he is worth considering in the context of this battalion.  Playing Trolls we don't have a ton of options and Giants are still quite cheap for what you get.  They cost the same as a min unit of Trolls.  They are cheap enough to use as big distracting shock units and their base size is small enough that you can easily fit them into battlelines as pile-in support or second-line units.

Granted they are Giants and not Trolls, but some simple conversions and you could easily make them visually fit with the rest of the army.  I was thinking of converting up a giant specifically for use with my trolls as a giant lanky mushroom-man.

Ok so comparision.

• Same number of wounds and same save.
• Gargant has an instikill mechanism (Lets ignore this against the Fellwaters Shooting attack)
• Fellwaters have their shooting attack (Lets ignore this against the Gargant instikill mechanic)
• Fellwaters are -1 to hit in melee.
• Fellwaters don't have drunken stagger.
• Fellwaters can heal wounds.
• Gargant and Fellwaters actually degrade at the same rate. (0-4 is 3d6 from giant, 5-8 is 2d6, 9+ is 1d6)

So lets compare the base damage of both in melee

 
So on initial inspection we can see that the Fellwaters are significantly better damage output. 

Next we look at what each potentially gains from the Troggherd

Here we see that while the Gargant benefits more the two are functionally equivalent in what they gain from the Troggherd. For anyone wondering about the degrading profiles it's in the spoiler below. The gargant handles the losses slightly better but the two drops are both in the same region.

Spoiler

Gargant gain degrading profile. 2d6 / d6

Fellwaters gain degrading numbers. 2 Troggs / 1 Trogg

Finally lets compare the melee damage with Troggherd factored in

This isn't going to be perfectly accurate as I'm running the Troggherd bonus damage as seperate attack lines but it's close enough for comparisons sake.

So we can see here that the Fellwaters are significantly better in terms of damage melee damage output than the Gargant whether we include the Troggherd or not.

Conclusion 

The Aleguzzler Gargant is just bad, take a unit of Fellwater Troggoths instead. They are more reliable, more survivable and have better damage output.

[Skabnoze]

39 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So we can see here that the Fellwaters are significantly better in terms of damage melee damage output than the Gargant whether we include the Troggherd or not.

Conclusion 

The Aleguzzler Gargant is just bad, take a unit of Fellwater Troggoths instead. They are more reliable, more survivable and have better damage output.

I don't buy this - sorry.

Your conclusion would have been the same in this case for every single unit available to Troggoths and the Troggherd when compared in this manner against the Fellwater Trolls.  On top of that, I don't think pure number crunching is always paint a full picture.

My argument was never that the Giant was the best option in the army.  My argument was that he was better than people often give him credit for and has some decent synergy with the Troggherd battalion to warrant consideration.  I still maintain that.  The simple fact that the base size/shape/unit-footprint is different between these two units means there are things you can do with either that you cannot do with the other.  The giant does not block up much area for objective holding.  But, the Giant is a whole lot easier to slot into a tight window to attack (such as when supporting another unit) given his small oval base.

I like Fellwater Trolls.  But, I don't want to only play an army made up of just those.  We have 4 unit options for Trolls and 1 more available with the Giant for the Troggherd.  The army is already stupidly limited and probably not the most completely optimized in the first place.  Due to points limitations I don't  expect the Giant will always have a place just because it is hard to slot various things into lists.  But, given that he is one of the cheapest options we have available I think he is still worth consideration.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't buy this - sorry.

Your conclusion would have been the same in this case for every single unit available to Troggoths and the Troggherd when compared in this manner against the Fellwater Trolls.  On top of that, I don't think pure number crunching is always paint a full picture.

My argument was never that the Giant was the best option in the army.  My argument was that he was better than people often give him credit for and has some decent synergy with the Troggherd battalion to warrant consideration.  I still maintain that.  The simple fact that the base size/shape/unit-footprint is different between these two units means there are things you can do with either that you cannot do with the other.  The giant does not block up much area for objective holding.  But, the Giant is a whole lot easier to slot into a tight window to attack (such as when supporting another unit) given his small oval base.

I like Fellwater Trolls.  But, I don't want to only play an army made up of just those.  We have 4 unit options for Trolls and 1 more available with the Giant for the Troggherd.  The army is already stupidly limited and probably not the most completely optimized in the first place.  Due to points limitations I don't  expect the Giant will always have a place just because it is hard to slot various things into lists.  But, given that he is one of the cheapest options we have available I think he is still worth consideration.

So the issue with the Aleguzzler Gargant is that he has 3 different attacks. 

• One at 4+/3+/-3/d6
• One at 3+/3+/-2/d3
• 3d6 at 3+/3+/-1/1

So when you consider the Gargant as a unit it has to be from one of these perspectives. With the Troggherd what matters is obviously volume of attacks, by taking it at a 4+ save with no rerolls it not only makes it simple but lets the Gargant properly display the strength of both his -2 and -3 rend attacks. The result of this is the Troggherd Table from the previous post. If I then add Rockguts, Troggboss and Standard Dankhold

Quote

 

We can see that the Gargant and Fellwater clearly benefit the most against a 3+ save.

 

Firstly we need to ignore the Troggboss as he relates to a Troggherd for the simple fact that he is not only mandatory but you can't take a second in it. That means that all Troggherds will have EXACTLY ONE Troggboss.

So then we look at the situational use of each of the other Troggherd units and what role they perform in the Herd.

• Aleguzzler has high volume of attacks with a small amount of strong rend.
• Fellwaters have high volume of attacks at the lowest rend.
• Rockguts have medium volume of attacks all strong rend.
• Dankhold have low volume of attacks at strong rend.

So we then consider the damage output of each of them across the different types of defence. Increasing from 1+.
Each of them runs Aleguzzler, Fellwater, Rockgut, Dankhold with a table at the bottom of each ranking them in order of expected output.

1+ No Rerolls

Spoiler

Based on average and 1 Standard Deviation rankings are.

1. Rockguts 
2. Fellwaters
3. Aleguzzler
4. Dankhold

2+ No Rerolls

Spoiler

1. Rockguts
2. Fellwaters
3. Aleguzzler
4. Dankhold

3+ No Rerolls

Spoiler

1. Fellwaters
2. Rockguts
3. Aleguzzler
4. Dankhold

No Save

Spoiler

 

1. Fellwaters
2. Rockguts
3. Aleguzzler
4. Dankhold

So from this we can note several things.

1. Based on damage output the Standard Dankhold Troggoth is overcosted. Honestly with Mollog out no army should ever take one. Especially at 220.
2. At 2+ or better Rockguts are the best option.
3. At 3+ or worse Fellwaters are the best option.
4. At no value of save does an Aleguzzler outperform either the Rockguts or Fellwater Troggoths.
5. All of the above is Ignoring the fact the Troggboss grants reroll 1s to Troggoth units but not Gargants.

If we then do a quick check of 3+ rerolling failed

Spoiler

1. Rockguts
2. Fellwaters
3. Aleguzzler
4. Dankhold

We see that adding rerolls just shifts the balance towards Rockguts without improving the Aleguzzler or Dankhold against Fellwaters.

Conclusion

Based on melee damage output alone Aleguzzler Gargants and Standard Dankhold Troggoths are just bad and not worth their points. At no point would you ever want to take them over either Rockgut or Fellwater Troggoths. The choice between Rockguts and Fellwaters is based on the save of your opponents units and whether they have rerolls, against most things Fellwater Troggoths are the better choice and they form the core of a Troggoth army.

When you include all the other rules into the mix it becomes harder to judge what is better. Sadly the Aleguzzler rules are overwhelmingly negative and considering them just drops him further down the rankings.

The Dankhold Troggoth is overcosted at 220 and not worth his points, take Mollog for 170 and get all the same utility for 50 points less.

EDIT: Additionally I feel this needs to be said and stressed.

This is based ENTIRELY on Mathammer. If you want to take a unit because it's cool or whatever reason do it, all I am doing is working out how the different units should statistically perform in any given situation. If you want a Troggherd with 2 Aleguzzlers and a bunch of Dankholds you don't need to justify it, it's cool and it's the army you want. I still play Ironjawz at tournaments despite the fact they suck.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Malakree

[dirkdragonslayer]

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

@Clanan The primary purpose for the Hag is to have a very hard to kill wizard who can sit on objectives which require Artefacts or Wizards. She's an amazing tarpit with a great personal spell that brings a nastier than usual unbind.

As a raw damage output model she's bad, but that's not her role.

EDIT: 

Depends on your exact list and what you can do with that artefact. If you're running a lot of fellwaters it's good (I did the math a few pages back and I think it's at 18 the battalion is better than another 3) with less value for the Rockguts/Dankhold.

The list I'm building towards is this.

The big thing for me here would be the Moonface Mommet essentially giving me a free rend on something. It also puts me at 6 drops with a CP vs 10 with no CP. It also requires me to paint 20 less Shootas which is a big plus! 🤣

From here I would experiment and play around with different builds but this is my starting point.

Wait, Troggoths are only battleline if your general is a Dankhold Troggboss. At the same time, Skragrott can only get bonus command points and use his command ability if he is the general. Otherwise he is just a good and expensive wizard. Wouldn't it be better just to take 2 madcap/fungoid shamans in his place if he isn't the general? You are paying all those points for his command ability and free CPs.

Edited January 25, 2019 by dirkdragonslayer
missed a few words.

[Malakree]

Just now, dirkdragonslayer said:

Wait, Troggoths are only battleline if your general is a Dankhold Troggboss. At the same time, Skragrott can only get bonus command points and use his command ability if he is the general. Otherwise he is just a good and expensive wizard. Wouldn't it be better just to take 2 madcap/fungoid shamans in his place? You are paying all those points for his command ability and free CPs.

I'm actually taking him for his shooting attack, +1 to cast on 2 spells and his unique spell which is IMO one of the best things ever. It lets you counter the Ethereal Amulet which is incredibly hard for Troggoths to deal with.