AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

4 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Maybe you are right, but I personally would prefer to have something that is relatively decent long-term rather than flare super bright only to be crushed by the nerf bat for a decade or more.  Us Grots spent enough time at the absolute bottom of the pack.

That all said, I am always wary of cross-book comparisons.  It is a useful tool up to a point, but the comparisons fall apart rapidly.  I also believe that a lot of what is used as measuring sticks in the very competitive realms is often the stuff that itself is out of whack and prone for adjustment.  Skeletons and Legions of Nagash as a whole I think falls into that category.  I don't buy for a second that the LoN book was balanced for the current edition when it was written.  I think they had an idea about some of the things they would do in 8th and that they used that book as a test-bed for how to recombine allegiances.  In that regard it was a success.  However, I think that book will see some large shake-ups whenever they decide to rewrite it.

I have a feeling that we will see things like possibly Dire Wolves and Bats removed entirely.  Skeletons will obviously remain and I suspect they may expand DeathRattle more - but I think that Skeletons will either go up in cost or they will tweak how the buffs stack on them.  I could be wrong, but that is the impression I get from watching how they have developed books.

I always thought it was weird having an army with not only a one command point re summon on a unit but also the ability to dish out 80 wounds on average with vanhels. I WILL say that without vanhels they are actually just average... it’s not as bad as people think as they fold to rend like no bodies business and drop in damage every ten models by a wide margin. Honestly without vanhels they just aren’t that scary... the only other armies with similar abilities are like khaine (which honestly makes sense... it definitely adds perhaps too much damage but I think with tweaks could work for that army) and FEC, but FEC kinda lack damage on anything without a monster keyword (although changes to screams make flayers terrifying with the grim garland...) death appear to Ben able to function without vanhels in my opinion!

[Skabnoze]

One thing that I hope GW pays attention to is the effects of massively ramping up damage.  It is more fun when stuff dies than when things are unkillable, but there is also a sweet spot for a game.

I think good examples of this are 40k and Warmachine.  40k 8th edition is so lethal that in my experience one or both armies are fairly decimated by top of turn 2 or turn 3.  It has taken a lot out of the games that my friends and I play because most of the missions feel meaningless when stuff is obliterated so fast.  Warmachine & Hordes has always been a damage-heavy game, but it has steadily trended more in that direction.  By the end of 2nd edition and the start of 3rd it is basically a game of jockeying for the alpha-strike and then going all in on one major turn to cripple the opponent.  Either you hit them so hard that you win or they cannot recover or else you don't and they smash you back.  A huge amount of that game descended into exactly that and it made most of the people I know who played it quite tired as it was continually just tiny variations of the same game over and over.  You can see the effect that this had on their annual scenario design if you followed each edition of Steamroller.  They constantly had to adjust the scenario rules to force players to move towards each other.

On the flip side AoS1 was prone to a number of stupidly tough units/monsters and something you simply have no chance to kill is also just not fun.  So far the GW devs have done a pretty good job, but I hope that they don't jump the shark and turn this into a pure alpha-strike ultra damage game.  It is fine to have some armies and builds that favor alpha-strikes, but there is a limit before it is simply not much fun.  As with any tactic, when alpha-strikes become too easy and effective then they become ubiquitous and the broader community will start to shrink as many people simply don't find that fun.  AoS is in a very good place and poised to get better - but GW has proven in the past that they are also capable of shooting themselves in the foot.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Skabnoze

[ItzMercy]

Can someone explain to me, more simply, the sporesplatta ability? You just can't shoot anymore behind them? But you can shoot them? Idk it confuses me! Also explain why anyone would choose hoppers over boingrots? For me it seems so simple to pick the boingrot unless u dont have enough points

[PlasticCraic]

That's correct with Sporesplattas, they shield anything behind them from Line of Site (but not themselves).

Hoppers are Battleline If and faster.

I think they may have overestimated the value of Battleline If in this case, because it's not hard to fill out 3+ in this army, and Stabbas are the heartbeat of the army rather than a tax.  Boingrots are generally worth the 10 extra points.

[Malakree]

8 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

On the flip side AoS1 was prone to a number of stupidly tough units/monsters and something you simply have no chance to kill is also just not fun.  So far the GW devs have done a pretty good job, but I hope that they don't jump the shark and turn this into a pure alpha-strike ultra damage game.  It is fine to have some armies and builds that favor alpha-strikes, but there is a limit before it is simply not much fun.  As with any tactic, when alpha-strikes become too easy and effective then they become ubiquitous and the broader community will start to shrink as many people simply don't find that fun.  AoS is in a very good place and poised to get better - but GW has proven in the past that they are also capable of shooting themselves in the foot.

Personally I prefer when you have high wounds without ridiculous saves or tons of regeneration.

The games I have where both sides grind each other down are always the best, you're trying to maximise your output while minimising the input. It leads to games where even towards the end you're both sat at 800 points left etc.

When you have something like sequitors in your face with 2+ rerollable save it's not fun to play against. When you get a Grimghast unit down to 5/10 models then run out of gas, a turn later it's back at 25 while your stuff stays dead, even if you do kill the unit it's still just straight back on the table for one command point. The Hag is actually the perfect example of the regen issue, almost dead then suddenly you get a double turn and she's back on her top profile.

I get that these things are thematic but they reduce games into obnoxious little subgames that either your army can play or you lose.
Legions of Nagash, can you get to your opponents characters and kill them, if not their entire army is essentially unkillable.
Can you inflict mortal wounds, if not sequitors are essentially unkillable.
Can you blow the Hag/Nurgle character up in one turn, if not they are essentially unkillable.

Those questions don't make fun games, they make for frustrating matches where you either have the answers or don't.

It's one of the reasons I really enjoy the heat 1 game vs @Skeekrit 248 wounds of Grots, yes I lost and couldn't deal the damage required but when I DID do damage it stuck so it felt like I was actually fighting the attrition war, I could potentially wipe out the squigs, the grots etc. and in doing so get myself that room to work with. When I play against LoN I have to burn 500 points worth of stuff to get through their screen only to have it just reappear, I'm now restarting the game but with 1500 points instead of 2k.

1 minute ago, ItzMercy said:

Can someone explain to me, more simply, the sporesplatta ability? You just can't shoot anymore behind them? But you can shoot them? Idk it confuses me! Also explain why anyone would choose hoppers over boingrots? For me it seems so simple to pick the boingrot unless u dont have enough points

Quote

Models are not visible to each other if an imaginary straight line 1mm wide drawn between the closest points of the two models crosses over this unit, or passes within 1" of this unit. This ability does not apply if either of the models the line is drawn between is a model from this unit, a model that can fly, or a Monster

Best way to do it is to select two models then run a check list.

1. Is either of the models part of this unit?
2. Can either model fly?
3. Is either unit a models a monster?

If the answer to any of these is yes then the ability doesn't apply and it doesn't block line of sight.
If no proceed

1. Draw a line between the closest points of each models base.
2. If this line passes within 1" of a sporesplatta then it blocks line of sight.
3. If the line doesn't pass within 1" of a sporesplatta then the ability doesn't apply and doesn't block line of sight.

4 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Hoppers are Battleline If and faster.

I think they may have overestimated the value of Battleline If in this case, because it's not hard to fill out 3+ in this army, and Stabbas are the heartbeat of the army rather than a tax.  Boingrots are generally worth the 10 extra points.

Generally agree. The one thing to note about hoppers is that because their mortal wound output comes from flying over models rather than charging them you don't need to engage to do it, the longer movement range makes it more of a threat and they can do it while running/retreating.

It's niche, I can see some interesting uses for it but I'm not sure it makes up for their drastically lower stats.

[Skabnoze]

6 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Best way to do it is to select two models then run a check list.

1. Is either of the models part of this unit?
2. Can either model fly?
3. Is either unit a models a monster?

If the answer to any of these is yes then the ability doesn't apply and it doesn't block line of sight.
If no proceed

1. Draw a line between the closest points of each models base.
2. If this line passes within 1" of a sporesplatta then it blocks line of sight.
3. If the line doesn't pass within 1" of a sporesplatta then the ability doesn't apply and doesn't block line of sight.

As a Software Engineer I approve of checking for early bail-out cases before getting to the more complicated part of the algorithm.  Well done.  👍

[Skabnoze]

9 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Generally agree. The one thing to note about hoppers is that because their mortal wound output comes from flying over models rather than charging them you don't need to engage to do it, the longer movement range makes it more of a threat and they can do it while running/retreating.

It's niche, I can see some interesting uses for it but I'm not sure it makes up for their drastically lower stats.

Right now the argument for Hoppers is if you want to run all mounted squig units then they have use as battle line.  Other than that their main use compared to Bounders seems to be utilizing their speed + fly and ability to deliver wounds through movement to go after chaff, back-line heroes, and small objective-grabbing units.  They are also one of the more mobile Gloomspite units and so they can go head to far-off objectives.  But for anything other than the above Boingrot are far superior.

[PlasticCraic]

18 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I get that these things are thematic but they reduce games into obnoxious little subgames that either your army can play or you lose.
Legions of Nagash, can you get to your opponents characters and kill them, if not their entire army is essentially unkillable.
Can you inflict mortal wounds, if not sequitors are essentially unkillable.
Can you blow the Hag/Nurgle character up in one turn, if not they are essentially unkillable.

Those questions don't make fun games, they make for frustrating matches where you either have the answers or don't.

Bingo

[ItzMercy]

I need some clarification for the Boing! Smash! ability. 'After this unit has made a charge move, pick 1 enemy unit within 1 inch of this unit and roll a dice for each model in this unit.' So do you roll a dice for each model in your unit of boingrotz OR do you roll a dice for each model in the unit you are attacking (The one you charged in to?) Sorry I just always never know 100% with abilities they confuse me. Thanks!

[Malakree]

30 minutes ago, ItzMercy said:

I need some clarification for the Boing! Smash! ability. 'After this unit has made a charge move, pick 1 enemy unit within 1 inch of this unit and roll a dice for each model in this unit.' So do you roll a dice for each model in your unit of boingrotz OR do you roll a dice for each model in the unit you are attacking (The one you charged in to?) Sorry I just always never know 100% with abilities they confuse me. Thanks!

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Core-Rules-and-Bases-Sizes-EN.pdf 

page 7

Quote

Q: Sometimes an ability will refer to ‘this model’ or ‘this unit’, and sometimes to ‘that model’ or ‘that unit’. Is there a difference?

A: Yes.

• When an ability says ‘this model’ or ‘this unit’, it is referring to the model or unit to which the ability applies.
• When an ability says ‘that model’ or ‘that unit’, it is referring to a model or unit that was referred to earlier in the same ability.

So, for example, an ability on a model’s warscroll might say: ‘Pick an enemy unit within 12" of this model. That unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.’ This would mean that you pick an enemy unit within 12" of a model that has this ability, and inflict D3 mortal wounds on the unit that you picked

 

So you roll a dice for each model in the Boingrot unit "...this unit".

[a74xhx]

15 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

also idk if y’all know this but 90 percent of the fun forgeworld monsters are destruction, you should try one or two lol they are super fun!

I've often wondered about all those FW monsters. Look like a nice big model project to do. The Dread maw, Basilisk, Merwyrm and Magma Dragon.

To use these I'm going to have to go mixed destruction rather than Gitz, which means bye bye command traits, artefacts, spell lore, loonshrine

Which ones of them are any good (or should I be asking in another thread.....), and are they better than the obvious "take Gordrakk" option?

I'm also a bit concerned they'll look too "serious" when put next to the "cartoony" Gitz.

 

 

[Grendel]

Sticking to the FW monster theme... 
I'm torn about weather to include a Bonegrinder or a Rogue Idol.
Both might be a bit much (but possible with the Bonegrinder being Gloomspite).

Anyone had much success with either?

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

1 hour ago, a74xhx said:

I've often wondered about all those FW monsters. Look like a nice big model project to do. The Dread maw, Basilisk, Merwyrm and Magma Dragon.

To use these I'm going to have to go mixed destruction rather than Gitz, which means bye bye command traits, artefacts, spell lore, loonshrine

Which ones of them are any good (or should I be asking in another thread.....), and are they better than the obvious "take Gordrakk" option?

I'm also a bit concerned they'll look too "serious" when put next to the "cartoony" Gitz.

 

 

The idol looks pretty fine beside gobbos (especially if you make it DANK) and I think you could get away with converting a centipede for the dread maw and just using his rules if army theme is important. The two incarnates don’t have models anymore I believe so just convert! I find the fire incarnate is best as a dragon creature and the beasts incarnate will work with basically anything monster like. For the magma dragon take squig hopper, loonsmasha, and mangler bits to make it look like the goblins are all riding him hap hazardly! If you play trolls then the merwrym will take minimal conversion when put beside the dankest of trolls (river trolls). As for gordrakk I have no idea how he actually plays.... the magma dragon is scariest non god model in game I believe, it spits mortal wounds everywhere and will out damage archaon for cheaper (although archaon has other things going for him then damage...) the merwrym is a tuff nut to crack in close combat but other then that it’s meh to me at least. The dread maw I think deep strikes (I’d have to bring up my warscrolls to check) and also gets a save against mortal wounds (I believe it’s feel no pain) the idol is greenskins so I think you can ally it in?

[mikethefish]

You can definitely ally the Idol in - JUUUUUST barely for a 2000 pt army.  It buffs Battleshock tests (which the Gloomspite desperately need) and also buffs magic (which the Gloomspite could definitely make use of).   Additionally, it's a big stompy monster that draws a lot of attention, and takes a lot of effort to kill.  Meantime, while the opponent tries to deal with the Idol, your mobs of 60 Stabbas get to play in the metaphorical sprinklers.

I've used it.  I like it.  Not an auto-include, but definitely has a place in certain lists.

Edited March 7, 2019 by mikethefish

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, mikethefish said:

You can definitely ally the Idol in - JUUUUUST barely for a 2000 pt army.  It buffs Battleshock tests (which the Gloomspite desperately need) and also buffs magic (which the Gloomspite could definitely make use of).   Additionally, it's a big stompy monster that draws a lot of attention, and takes a lot of effort to kill.  Meantime, while the opponent tries to deal with the Idol, your mobs of 60 Stabbas get to play in the metaphorical sprinklers.

I've used it.  I like it.  Not an auto-include, but definitely has a place in certain lists.

Plus it is easy to scratch build or convert to fit the army.  For example, an easy Gloomspite conversion is to take the small stone moon from the Loonshrine kit and use it as a head replacement.  Now you have an Idol with a big stone moon face.  Then cover the thing with lots of mushrooms growing out of it (plenty to be found in that Loonshrine kit) and it looks right at home in the middle of a Gloomspite grot force.

[Malakree]

One question, has anyone tried allying in spear chukkas? Seems like they would add an amazing tool for the army.

[Nickmoss90]

Please help.

Question: let's say I have the Morks mighty mushroom 80pts. I have three gloomspite Gitz wizards. They can all cast the mushroom right. Let's say the first fails, can the second attempt to cast the mushroom in the same hero phase? Any difference between ranked and open play?

[Skabnoze]

3 hours ago, a74xhx said:

I've often wondered about all those FW monsters. Look like a nice big model project to do. The Dread maw, Basilisk, Merwyrm and Magma Dragon.

To use these I'm going to have to go mixed destruction rather than Gitz, which means bye bye command traits, artefacts, spell lore, loonshrine

Which ones of them are any good (or should I be asking in another thread.....), and are they better than the obvious "take Gordrakk" option?

I'm also a bit concerned they'll look too "serious" when put next to the "cartoony" Gitz.

I really like most of the models that Forgeworld makes for AoS, and I like that they put a lot of them in Destruction, but I do not like how they poorly integrated them into the rules and the game.  A lot of them simply don't fit or cannot even be used in any real army.  In the end it gives me more reasons to not purchase many of them.  I would like to have more options in how to field them and incentive to buy them.  The only thing they are doing is hurting their own bottom line and I find that a bit mystifying.

If they were to work with the main GW design team to fix the ally keywords in destruction armies so that some of these could be included - and then tweak a couple more of the monsters so that they fall within the average ally-cost range (such as the Dread Maw), then I would probably get more of the non-allegiance ones.  I am very glad that they added the Gloomspite keyword to the Bonegrinder and Troggoth Hag and I wish that they would find homes for more of the other generic ones.

[mikethefish]

29 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Plus it is easy to scratch build or convert to fit the army.  For example, an easy Gloomspite conversion is to take the small stone moon from the Loonshrine kit and use it as a head replacement.  Now you have an Idol with a big stone moon face.  Then cover the thing with lots of mushrooms growing out of it (plenty to be found in that Loonshrine kit) and it looks right at home in the middle of a Gloomspite grot force.

 

Personally my Chamon-based Gloomspite have a very steampunk theme.  I am building a Rogue Idol for them that is basically a giant steam-powered Grot (like the gate guard from Labyrinth) that runs off of burning mushrooms.  My thinking is that my Grots got tired of being the smallest and the weediest race around, so they built a huge glorified steam-powered version of themselves to beat up on everybody else.

The rules translate just fine.  The regular Rogue Idol has that rule that when it takes damage, pieces of itself fall off and cause mortal wounds to nearby units.  For my Steam Grot, I just say that when it takes damage, the big thing springs leaks and vents superheated steam on nearby units.  Same rule - just a different imaginary visual

[Skabnoze]

11 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

 

Personally my Chamon-based Gloomspite have a very steampunk theme.  I am building a Rogue Idol for them that is basically a giant steam-powered Grot (like the gate guard from Labyrinth) that runs off of burning mushrooms.  My thinking is that my Grots got tired of being the smallest and the weediest race around, so they built a huge glorified steam-powered version of themselves to beat up on everybody else.

The rules translate just fine.  The regular Rogue Idol has that rule that when it takes damage, pieces of itself fall off and cause mortal wounds to nearby units.  For my Steam Grot, I just say that when it takes damage, the big thing springs leaks and vents superheated steam on nearby units.  Same rule - just a different imaginary visual

Love it!

It reminds me of the Gremlin Whiskey Golem in Malifaux.  What base model & parts are you using for this project?  Got any WIP pics?

[Skabnoze]

47 minutes ago, Nickmoss90 said:

Please help.

Question: let's say I have the Morks mighty mushroom 80pts. I have three gloomspite Gitz wizards. They can all cast the mushroom right. Let's say the first fails, can the second attempt to cast the mushroom in the same hero phase? Any difference between ranked and open play?

I am pretty sure it follows the normal spell-casting restrictions - so you can only attempt to cast a particular spell once per turn.  If the first casting fails or is unbound then your other wizards cannot try to cast that spell again the same turn.

[mikethefish]

32 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Love it!

It reminds me of the Gremlin Whiskey Golem in Malifaux.  What base model & parts are you using for this project?  Got any WIP pics?

Well I am something of amateur sculptor myself, so pretty much I am building the thing entirely from scratch.  Starting with an armature that I built out of scrap cardstock and some other odd bits, and then I will gradually cover the entire thing in plasticard that I cut to look like crude armored plates.  

I've got a pretty good way to make rivets, so I've got that down.  The only non-scratch built things are some 3d printed spikes that I bought off of Shapeways (just to add detail), and some Moonclan Grot models poking out here and there to look like crew members.  

I JUST barely got started on the thing, so any in-progress shots I do would not be very exciting.  I'll post stuff at a later date, if anyone is interested.  Certainly I want to show off the finished product later on

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Nickmoss90 said:

Please help.

Question: let's say I have the Morks mighty mushroom 80pts. I have three gloomspite Gitz wizards. They can all cast the mushroom right. Let's say the first fails, can the second attempt to cast the mushroom in the same hero phase? Any difference between ranked and open play?

 

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

I am pretty sure it follows the normal spell-casting restrictions - so you can only attempt to cast a particular spell once per turn.  If the first casting fails or is unbound then your other wizards cannot try to cast that spell again the same turn.

This is correct.

"Summon morks mushroom" is a spell and subject to all the normal spell rules. That means I'm matched play it can only be attempted once per hero phase. It's called the rule of one.

In open play you can do what you want.

[Nickmoss90]

36 minutes ago, Malakree said:

 

This is correct.

"Summon morks mushroom" is a spell and subject to all the normal spell rules. That means I'm matched play it can only be attempted once per hero phase. It's called the rule of one.

In open play you can do what you want.

Thanks everyone. Sorry in advance.

If I took multiple wizards with the same spell. Can they all attempt to cast their spell in the same hero phase? 

Sorry just thinking about what to buy next/ army builds .. 

[Skabnoze]

40 minutes ago, Nickmoss90 said:

If I took multiple wizards with the same spell. Can they all attempt to cast their spell in the same hero phase? 

Sorry just thinking about what to buy next/ army builds .. 

Sadly no.  All spells in the game are subject to the once per turn restriction regardless of how a model gets access to that spell.

If wizards could cast their personal spells once per wizard I would take a bunch of madcap Shaman.  But it would get problematic with other wizards in the game such as some of the death wizards, troggoth hag, etc.

No worries for asking.  It is a perfectly valid question.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Skabnoze