Tailessine Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Hi everybody Im only a basic painter but last week decided to treat myself to a proper fine paintbrush from GW in order to do the new male Knight Incantor justice (stunning model). While browsing the descriptions i noticed that many of their brushes are made of 'sable.' not knowing what on earth that was had a quick google and basically it is a member of the weasel family, usually now farmed for its fur. Its soft, dense fur makes a good brush which explains its use but i had always assumed (if i had thought about it) that brushes nowadays were synthetic. Now, i dont need to buy it but it has kind of ruined the hobby a bit for me, knowing that a rather cute animal was probably senselessy killed to paint all the awesome miniatures i usually love to oogle. Love to know if anyone else is bothered by this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Schmidt Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I had thought they were from the hair from a horse's tail but that doesn't seem to be the case. This is an interesting development: 'Beginning in 2013, shipments to the U.S. of kolinsky hair brushes have been halted and in some cases seized by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service due to the kolinsky's inclusion in the international CITES agreement.' from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolinsky_sable-hair_brush If you aren't comfortable buying Kolinsky Sable brushes you should totally 'vote with your dollar'. I can see someone who is vegan avoiding them for example. In any case there are plenty of very good painters who feel that synthetic brushes are fine, so there are options if you aren't down with the sable brushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughwyeth Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I didn't know about this. I also thought it was horse tail! They are my favourite brush. Does anyone know how the animals are treated? Is it battery type faming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, hughwyeth said: I didn't know about this. I also thought it was horse tail! They are my favourite brush. Does anyone know how the animals are treated? Is it battery type faming? I don't know about anywhere else, but Russian farms are terrible, do not buy anyone's that sources from Eastern Europe. I know Winsor & Newton use tail fur plucked from captured and re-released animals seen as pests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Any thread that starts "was PETA right?" can normally be answered with a resounding no and left at that. Take a look into some of that organisation's activities, particularly the kill shelters they operate, and you'll see they're based on nothing more than rank self publicising and cash grabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mohojoe Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Sable brushes are ****** awful but it all depends on where your morale compass lies. They are barbaric but they make the best brushes. If anyone knows of any decent synthetic brushes I would love to get some instead however most I have used are not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 15 minutes ago, AGPO said: Any thread that starts "was PETA right?" can normally be answered with a resounding no and left at that. Take a look into some of that organisation's activities, particularly the kill shelters they operate, and you'll see they're based on nothing more than rank self publicising and cash grabs. PETA has a lot of problems and only deals with extremes, but many of the issues they attempt (and often make worse) to deal with are quite legitimate. As for the sable fur brushes, like others said, vote with your money. Many people use high quality synthetic brushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailessine Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mohojoe said: 15 minutes ago, AGPO said: Any thread that starts "was PETA right?" can normally be answered with a resounding no and left at that. Take a look into some of that organisation's activities, particularly the kill shelters they operate, and you'll see they're based on nothing more than rank self publicising and cash grabs. Yeah you are right- i guess i was looking for a catchy title! I am vegetarian actually but would not condone extremism. On the subject of more ethical brushes though i wonder if there are any decent ones- i got my last from Hobbycraft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mohojoe said: Sable brushes are ****** awful but it all depends on where your morale compass lies. They are barbaric but they make the best brushes. If anyone knows of any decent synthetic brushes I would love to get some instead however most I have used are not great. Have you tried Princeton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mohojoe Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 1 minute ago, dmorley21 said: Have you tried Princeton? Haven’t heard of them, will have a look now, ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailessine Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 Yeah thanks- their NextGen brushes could really fit the bill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 So just to make sure I have this right, it appears to be the case that all GW brushes (most other companies too of course but GW's where I've been buying up to now) use hair from a member of the weasel family? ? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Basically anything Sable - chances are a good few companies likely use the same source too with the main difference being the logo printed on them or having custom designs made in the same factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 2 hours ago, hughwyeth said: I didn't know about this. I also thought it was horse tail! They are my favourite brush Me too. This sucks. My favorite brushes are the Windsor Newton miniature series kolinsky sable brushes. Not any more. ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Hey all GW brushes are rebranded Winsor-Newtons. So you should feel ok if Winsor-Newton use the catch and release policy. Quote Source: Rick Priestley (facebook) Games Workshop don’t make brushes – they buy them in from Winsor & Newton who supply rebranded brushes based on their standard range. Just once – when I was there – we persuaded W&N to do a limited edition of a range based on their premium Series 7 brushes – which are made to a higher standard and are generally held to be the best brushes available. If that’s still the case, I would guess this is the same deal again – W&N Series 7 brushes sized to GW’s ‘inbetween’ brush sizes. If so I’m sure they’re very good. I generally go for Series 7’s myself – as you can buy the sizes you want and many good art suppliers offer them at a discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailessine Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-h3g-gb&hl=en-ZA&ei=ysk7W4KjCdKZgQaht6uYCw&q=windsor+newton+weasel&oq=windsor+newton+weasel&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.3..0i13j0i13i10j0i8i13i10i30l3.12541.20342..20783...2....132.1331.10j4......0....1.........35i39j33i21j0i22i10i30j0i22i30j0i20i263j0i10j0i13i30j33i160.jr2zZLmfxgw. Long link but in a nutshell these kaplinsky brushes are not from farmed sable, but from wild trapped asian animals. Unfortunately although slightly more ethical still leads to a dead animal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/discover/about-us/the-royal-warrant I didn't spot anything on their website with regard to the source of their brush hair; however their Royal Warrant and Sponsor likely has some significant influence on their material sourcing. If they are using catch and release then that shouldn't result in dead weasel simply slightly shaved weasel (and likely only on a small part of their body). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick in York Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 This link explains how W&N brushes are made and where the materials come from: http://www.countrylife.co.uk/luxury/art-and-antiques/winsor-newton-brush-history-150927 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sesom Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 You know a lot of paint pigments are made from animals as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 23 minutes ago, Condottiero Magno said: What does being a vegetarian have to do with using sable? I believe its in reference to the fact that one of the main reasons people become vegetarian is due to a dislike of the concept of an animal suffering in order to provide for human interests. This might be the whole process or could be limited to the care/raising and culling of the animal. It's also one of those things that we don't often think about how much stuff we have in life that does come from animal sources. It can be quite surprising what animal derived content turns up where! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, Condottiero Magno said: The Truth Behind GW’s New $25 Paint Brushes? My experience with Citadel brushes ended around 2000, after owning the black (late 80s - early 90s) and red (mid-late 90s) handled ones and experiencing increasing dissatisfaction: falling out hairs and split ends, though had I known of brush soap, I might've extended their life. I'll accept Michael Schenk's post, in the comments section, as the truth regarding the quality of the 2015 brushes. I don't know who Michael Schenk is, but Rick Priestly is one of the founders of GW and was one of the higher ups. The quote doesn't say they were W&N S7, but that they were based on them. Perhaps it's my lack of knowledge on Michael Schenk that leads me to err on the side of Rick Priestly (yep, fandom bias, fine). I was very skeptical of GW brushes too, I have the old red and black handled ones. I did buy a couple of the new ones, and they are a lot higher quality than the old ones, especially if you take care of them and use The Masters Brush Cleaner. I'd still choose Series 7 over them but they are just fine for everyday painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Just to say guys we're in danger of turning this into a political thread, which although not explicitly against site rules is not a good idea on a hobby forum. As a food security and sustainable agriculture expert, (it's been my professional and academic field fora long time now) the ethical issues around animal products versus synthetic are often vastly more complicated than they're made online. Before this turns into a flamewar can we maybe just stick to looking at the facts about brush production and leave the ethical questions for a more suitable time and place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mohojoe Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 hour ago, AGPO said: Just to say guys we're in danger of turning this into a political thread, which although not explicitly against site rules is not a good idea on a hobby forum. As a food security and sustainable agriculture expert, (it's been my professional and academic field fora long time now) the ethical issues around animal products versus synthetic are often vastly more complicated than they're made online. Before this turns into a flamewar can we maybe just stick to looking at the facts about brush production and leave the ethical questions for a more suitable time and place? I was actually thinking people were discussing things in quite a grown up manner! It’s nice to have the open discussion without people shouting each other down. I’m an ecologist and environmental advisor myself so I’m pretty interested in this side of the hobby and it’s not something I hear spoken about enough. As I alluded to earlier, it all depends on where you draw the line morally. I will happily catch a wild fish and eat it, but I won’t touch anything farmed. There is nothing wrong with everyone having a different morale compass, and it’s nice to be on a forum where people are either listening to other opinions or at least just ignoring them without making it personal. Anyway. All the synthetic brushes I have used seem to curl way before there life time dictates or have no body for holding a significant amount of paint. Are these consistent issues that others have found too? Also what are the synthetic hairs made from in general, if it’s plastic fibre is it any better than having a hair brush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughwyeth Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 If anyone can list specific synthetic brush alternatives, that would be great. I keep seeing "There are great synthetic brushes", but not any models listed? The ones i've used are some larger ones and they curl after 4 or 5 painting sessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durant Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 17 hours ago, Mohojoe said: Sable brushes are ****** awful but it all depends on where your morale compass lies. They are barbaric but they make the best brushes. If anyone knows of any decent synthetic brushes I would love to get some instead however most I have used are not great. 1 hour ago, hughwyeth said: If anyone can list specific synthetic brush alternatives, that would be great. I keep seeing "There are great synthetic brushes", but not any models listed? The ones i've used are some larger ones and they curl after 4 or 5 painting sessions. Escoda Prado Round Rigger 6 I use them and the are good, I do not know if they are better or worst from natural coz I do not use them. I have them for 4-6 months and they are still ok. But i do wash them fairly as they are not you cheap sintetic brushes (they cost 40PLN aprox 10 euro for one) An a link to their site http://www.escoda.com/artists_shop/synthetic_brushes/prado/tame_synthetic/65 I hope I am not braking any rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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