AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Marcvs]

52 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

Given that those Battalions want you to take a Bloodwrack OR an Ironscale makes me think the Ironscale does indeed make Melusai battleline

seems not

[Eternalis]

From the booklet in the Shadow and Pain box, only the Bloodwrack is making Blood Sisters battleline.

Edit: too slow

Edited November 7, 2020 by Eternalis

[Furipuri]

5 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

seems not

Hmmm disappointing. The Stalkers even got a point cost increase to 140, if I‘m not mistaken.

[Mcprowlington]

Quote

The Shadow Queen does indeed keep the Iron Heart!

That's great from a competitive standpoint but ngl i'm gonna feel pretty terrible about using her in casual play.  Can't imagine how unfun that'd be to play against.

[Furipuri]

tbh without any ability to make Melusai or Khinerai battleline (besides taking the Medusa as general for sisters) this whole „Make Scáthborn great again“ thingy seems a little pointless.

[Furipuri]

Someone got a picture of the new Blood Sistsers Warscroll?

[Overread]

7 minutes ago, Mcprowlington said:

That's great from a competitive standpoint but ngl i'm gonna feel pretty terrible about using her in casual play.  Can't imagine how unfun that'd be to play against.

It's not that bad. In fact its been copied to a few big profile monsters now in different or similar forms. Basically its an ability which means that your opponent can't dog-pile your 1/4 of your army cost single model. A problem for big profile models is that they often get a lot more attention which can mean that without proper protections, they get wiped out way too fast. If you give them really strong saves and such they can be near impossible to kill; but with a wound limit per turn you can give them a save that lets them take harm at a more steady rate. 

The trick for opponents is several fold

1) To learn that there can be other ways to cause harm that aren't protected by the wound limits.

2) To learn that there is a limit so only accord enough of their army to deal with the threat that's needed. So instead of sending 3/4 of their army at Morathi; they learn to use enough to cause the damage, leaving them more of their army free to deal with the rest of yours

3) To mitigate/distract/tarpit or otherwise ignore the model. Gotrek is a great example of a super powerful character that's great to ignore; you just don't focus on that model and focus on the rest. Tarpitting - ergo getting into close combat with a unit that won't kill, but will not die very fast and thus eats up turns - is also a great move.

Basically there are many ways to deal with it and whilst some new opponents this will be a new experience, its all part of learning the game.

[Mcprowlington]

13 minutes ago, Overread said:

Basically there are many ways to deal with it and whilst some new opponents this will be a new experience, its all part of learning the game.

which is mostly fair enough, when it comes to 1 model. When it comes to two and one is a beatstick and the other is an offense oriented caster a lot of that goes out the window.

But this is assuming the wounds that the shadow queen sustains when mini morathi gets hit count towards her 3 wound cap. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Mcprowlington

[InSaint]

31 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

seems not

Seems like blood stalkers went up from 120 to 140 to justify the 2 shots!

[pixieproxy]

Does two shots make them worth it now even?

[Overread]

6 minutes ago, Mcprowlington said:

which is mostly fair enough, when it comes to 1 model. When it comes to two and one is a beatstick and the other is an offense oriented caster a lot of that goes out the window.

But this is assuming the wounds that the shadow queen sustains when mini morathi gets hit count towards her 3 wound cap. 

True, but you are also paying 600 points for the combo of the two models. That's over 1/4 of a 2K army sunk into that combo who share the health pool. So there's still ample reason for it to be balanced. 

[Overread]

Just now, pixieproxy said:

Does two shots make them worth it now even?

I think it pushes them more toward being a ranged unit that can do well in close combat; instead of a close combat unit that does ok at range. Their issue was always that they were more of a skirmishing unit, which is a neat concept, but meant that they paled somewhat in comparison to the close combat version since ultimately you'd end up with only one or two turns shooting with light damage before you'd reach close combat - at which point the other versions drastically out perform them.

Pushing them more toward ranged power makes them a more viable ranged unit that can defend itself if it gets attacked, but isn't required to keep charging forward into close combat. Esp since the skirmisher role is already really well done with Doomfires. 

[Overread]

Just now, pixieproxy said:

Does two shots make them worth it now even?

I think it pushes them more toward being a ranged unit that can do well in close combat; instead of a close combat unit that does ok at range. Their issue was always that they were more of a skirmishing unit, which is a neat concept, but meant that they paled somewhat in comparison to the close combat version since ultimately you'd end up with only one or two turns shooting with light damage before you'd reach close combat - at which point the other versions drastically out perform them.

Pushing them more toward ranged power makes them a more viable ranged unit that can defend itself if it gets attacked, but isn't required to keep charging forward into close combat. Esp since the skirmisher role is already really well done with Doomfires. 

[DJMoose]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

seems not

So...why not then?

Seems like such a missed opportunity. Still requiring you to take a Medusa instead of the the Ironscale seems counter-intuitive to all of these new battalions.

[Mutton]

Dammit, I would have considered Stalkers at 120. Did they really think a terrible, underperforming unit deserved being pushed up in points just because it got an extra attack?

[Silphid]

Blood stalkers at 140 is a touch steep. Whether the meta favors having a 10-snake unit holding a backline objective while peppering shots with Morathi

‘s CA remains to be seen. If we could confirm the blood sister warscroll update we’d have a clear picture of the snake coven’s offerings. But if the Blood sisters essentially only get their previous 3A melee weapons, Would much rather field witches with twice the attacks per point, and avoid the listbuilding sheninagans to boost your snakes to 5-6 attacks per model (3 per wound, like the witches).

Causiously pessimistic on my full snake build now...

[Mutton]

Blood Sisters indeed got nerfed. Their ability is the Ironscale's "Turned to Crystal" now (end of combat 3+ to do a mw). It's worth noting that you only need one Melusai to be within 1" of an enemy unit and you roll for every Melusai---it's no longer a 1" reach weapon for each snake. But because it's at the end of combat, you could easily run into a situation where enemies have been removed from with in that range, completely negating your mw ability.

Also Heartrenders gained the standard deep strike clause that requires them to be on the battlefield by the 4th battle round.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Mutton

[Silphid]

So the blood sisters are still 3A at 3+/3+/-1/1dmg? With a nerfed crystal touch (in perspective of synergies with other rules); sounds like they are rather clearly inferior to witches in terms of damage output, or am I missing something?

I getthat you can stack buffs on them and that may be viable, but sounds like a lot of work to get past witch efficiency. On a competitive standpoint Id like to have an on-par alternative; not sure we do...

Perhaps a new Battletome is upcoming that will shake things up further? Historically speaking it sounds likely a couple of months after a box set like this one.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Silphid

[Fyrm]

I admit, I’m rather disappointed with the rules in the Morathi book. None of the battalions excite me, and the only part of the new temple that does is the command ability. I think I’m goin to stick to my Khailebron list for my sneks. And my Temple Nest battalion for most of the army. Will be slotting in the Ironscale though, that’s a nice command ability. Just hope the buff to archers [finally some love!!!] outweighs the nerf to crystal touches. 

[Furipuri]

39 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Blood Sisters indeed got nerfed. Their ability is the Ironscale's "Turned to Crystal" now (end of combat 3+ to do a mw). Though it's worth noting that you only need one Melusai to be within 1" of an enemy unit and you roll for every Melusai---it's no longer a 1" reach weapon for each snake.

Also Heartrenders gained the standard deep strike clause that requires them to be on the battlefield by the 4th battle round.

Dou you mind sharing your source?

[Furipuri]

7 minutes ago, Furipuri said:

Dou you mind sharing your source?

Found it myself: 

 

You can have a glance at all the warscrolls:

 

All in all quite disappointed. 

[Fyrm]

Do we know what the battlebox’s battalion does? The standard Scathcoven is kinda meh, but if the special one does something nice, might actually be tempting. It’d have to be better than dealing back mortals for fighting most of the army, but maybe...

[DJMoose]

The wording on the Turned to Crystal ability is awful. Depending on how you read it a Blood Sisters unit would either a) roll a 3+ for each model in their unit and inflict MWs or b) roll a 3+ for each model in the enemy unit and inflict MWs. My guess is the intent is each model in the enemy unit, which in that case is a HUGE nerf.

So much for taking down a Mega-Gargant in one round of combat.

Edited November 7, 2020 by DJMoose

[Mcprowlington]

25 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

The wording on the Turned to Crystal ability is awful. Depending on how you read it a Blood Sisters unit would either a) roll a 3+ for each model in their unit and inflict MWs or b) roll a 3+ for each model in the enemy unit and inflict MWs. My guess is the intent is each model in the enemy unit, which in that case is a HUGE nerf.

So much for taking down a Mega-Gargant in one round of combat.

Its says pick an enemy unit and roll a dice for each model in "this" unit. So it's like evocators. If it meant the enemy unit, it would say "that" unit. 

Honestly i'm really surprised they didn't touch lifetakers. Or do a quick pass at the other temples, but i guess that was very wishful thinking.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Mcprowlington

[Fyrm]

Hmmmmmm. Actually, looking closer, I’d say the Turned to Crystal is more a sidegrade than downgrade. Sure, we can’t apply buffs, but we didn’t have many before for that particular attack. And triggering at the end of the combat phase is weaker...but it’s 3+ for all now, not just those within 1”. On a big block of 20, even going last, that’s likely to be a lot more pings of it.