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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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1 hour ago, Slippy said:

How are you guys liking the Warscrolls? (Battalions?)

I'm with @Overread. It would be nice if GW reworked the battalions to make them more like the temples, enclaves, etc. Meaning that they give you an ability, but come with some restrictions and costs. I think the DoK battalions are actually reasonably structured in that they focus on units that work well together, but their cost is pretty high for what you get unless you are trying to keep drops down.   

Personally, I like the Khinerai models, but they are annoying to carry around and move into and out of combat with their wings. As has already been said, they have a lot of tactical flexibility, but they are SUPER fragile. 

Edited by Hankster

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Slaughter Troupe is only viable option as far as competitive play is concerned, but in army lists that I run second artifact isn't that great but ability to go about 4 drops is great if you need it and give you more flexibility. Slaughter Troupe ability is also nice. 

Cauldron guard could be good as well if you're going for alpha strike with Cogs. 

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Does anyone play Snake focused builds? If so what are they? Does anyone know what Nick Thompson's snakes list that took 6th spot at the AoS GT final was? 

I'm currently building out my army and debating getting more witches or and another cauldron or going a different direction. 

 

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4 hours ago, Hankster said:

Does anyone play Snake focused builds? If so what are they? Does anyone know what Nick Thompson's snakes list that took 6th spot at the AoS GT final was? 

I'm currently building out my army and debating getting more witches or and another cauldron or going a different direction. 

 


BloodSisters are no joke. A unit of 10(280 pts) can dish out a solid amount of rend and mortal wounds, something the army lacks. that said, the rough part is that you will need a Wizard general and therefore No Command Ability if you are to Melusai battleline which is the popular way to run a snake army.  But, I would encourage you to consider an alternative, keep the Slaughter Queen on Cauldron as General and pay your minimum Battleline taxes in Witch Aelves., 3 x100 pts spent on some chaff Witch Aelves to screen your snakes when BCR is charging you and you'd still have access to Orgy of Slaughter,  which is,  in my opinion, well worth it's value in points.  Plus those 10 person units of Witch Aelves will be rolling 40 dice each unit if they're near a hero. 30 if not, so that alone isn't a bad offensive option either. In the end scoring is about more models so some fodder foot soldiers is never a bad idea.

Pro-Tip. Melusai have a 1'' attack range to have all their attacks hits so you will not want  two rows deep of models but instead you'll want your front with enough space between your models that your staggered back row can reach in with their 1' attack range. (e.g.~first Google hit I could find
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGOyS-76xaWEJ7-bu5bk1

Edited by Jais
Grammar
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1 hour ago, Jais said:


BloodSisters are no joke. A unit of 10(280 pts) can dish out a solid amount of rend and mortal wounds, something the army lacks. that said, the rough part is that you will need a Wizard general and therefore No Command Ability if you are to Melusai battleline which is the popular way to run a snake army.  But, I would encourage you to consider an alternative, keep the Slaughter Queen on Cauldron as General and pay your minimum Battleline taxes in Witch Aelves., 3 x100 pts spent on some chaff Witch Aelves to screen your snakes when BCR is charging you and you'd still have access to Orgy of Slaughter,  which is,  in my opinion, well worth it's value in points.  Plus those 10 person units of Witch Aelves will be rolling 40 dice each unit if they're near a hero. 30 if not, so that alone isn't a bad offensive option either. In the end scoring is about more models so some fodder foot soldiers is never a bad idea.
 

That's not a bad idea. I do like my Cauldrons, particularly the SQ. Having access to both prayers and the bloodshield is pretty hard to give up. 

What sort of list do you run? 

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It depends how much Snakes you wanna run. 

I've played with semi-Snake heavy army (Bloodwrack Shrine, 20 Blood Sisters, Morathi) and had great success with it, but as for now I'd recommend 

Slaughter Queen, 2xHag Queen, Morathi, 30 Witches with bucklers, 2x10 Witches, 20 Blood Sisters, 5 Heartrenders it doesn't have any extra CPs but it can be played around or just cut one HagQueen/5 Snakes out of it for extra 1 CP, other option is to use 10 Blood Sisters along with combination of 70 Witches. 

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On 10/17/2018 at 12:08 PM, Hankster said:

That's not a bad idea. I do like my Cauldrons, particularly the SQ. Having access to both prayers and the bloodshield is pretty hard to give up. 

What sort of list do you run? 

A couple different lists depending on what mood ( Temple ) I'm in :)

  • Kraith Cauldron Guard with lots of Slaughter Queens on foot for Dance of Doom, Orgy of Slaughter lots of opportunity for Kraith Allegiance to pop off.
  • Drachai Ganeth  with Cogs, Snakes and Lifetakers and all the charging fun units.
  • Grand Alliance Order with Slaughter Troupe and Tanabrael Shard.


I find Hagg Narr and 90 Witch Aelves horribly boring, might as well play Murderhost Khorne.  I really enjoy skirmishy movement ( Sisters of Slaughter, Lifetakers, Tanebrael Shard type gameplay, kind of like boxing really. ) So I tend to run lots of those type models as much as I can.
Run + Charge
Retreat + Run + 6'' Pile in. 
Retreat  + Pile in 6'' ( I can hit you before you can hit me ) 
Hit then free move (Lifetakers) 
Kill hero then free move( Tanebrael Shard) 

My favorite playstyle revolves around controlling the order/pace of what fight happens and what bad decisions I leave my opponent with in the combat phase.  (In that regard I do really enjoy the combo ability of Destruction to chain their activations if they kill a unit.)
 

Edited by Jais
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@Jais (And others) out of interest when you run 90 Witches what composition of units do you use and equipment do you take on them? I'm curious as I'm aiming to build up to a nice sold 90 witches before breaking out the paints and I've currently got 30 blades and 30 bucklers so I'm pooling ideas on what the next 30 should be. 

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Double Blades Witch Aelves are very fragile ( 6+ save ) so it's very common for folks to run Hagg Narr for that 5+ shrug save around the cauldron and then a second set of Double Blades Witch Aelves can additionally re-roll their 5+ shrug with Blessing of Khaine prayer. For those 60 Witch Aelves I've mostly seen the 4 attacks kind ( double daggers being pumped full of witch brew. )

That said they have no rend so the last 30 with a shield isn't a bad option, at all, to consider.  If you wanna tie something up with high armor ( e.g. stormcast ) as you'll deal some mortal wounds when those shield witches are attacked with the 6+ save Mortals and the 5+Mortal Wound explosion on model death prayer. Also it's nice to have one unit that OK to let get hit first in Combat phase (imo) E.g. I've crippled a MeagBoss on Mawcrusher with that combo ( he killed some 20+ Sisters of Slaughter ) and then my activation I finished him off with their first sets of attacks. I wouldn't have been able to kill him off if I was using double daggers.  His 3+ save and mytsic shield is DoK's bane with no real rend. ( Thank God for Mind Razor .) So ultimately I'm saying while 4 attacks is amazing, in enough circumstances that are realistic I think a unit of 3 attacks because of shields has significant tactical coverage where only 90 Witch Aelves with 4 attacks each wouldn't have the impact they would.  All that said, 90 Witches with Double Daggers is the Net List and the more commonly used tournament placing winning list.

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5 hours ago, Jais said:
  • Grand Alliance Order with Slaughter Troupe and Tanabrael Shard.


 

I didn't think you were able to take a Daughters Battalion in an GA Order list? I have Shard arriving this week :)

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On 10/17/2018 at 8:59 AM, Hankster said:

Does anyone play Snake focused builds? If so what are they? Does anyone know what Nick Thompson's snakes list that took 6th spot at the AoS GT final was? 

I'm currently building out my army and debating getting more witches or and another cauldron or going a different direction. 

 

I have a snake focussed list using Khailebron

Morathi - mindrazor 

2 Medusa - shroud of despair / Mirror dance (General)

3 Hag (crown of woe)

3 * 10 wyches 

20 bloodsisters

10 bloodsisters  

list can first turn teleport and move Morathi if needed. Can do a snake star that with all buffs kills anything especially due to leadership debuffs and mindrazor. Small witch units can screen and blow through opposition screens.  Army wide minus to hit at range rounds it out. 

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@Jais my thanks for your thoughts! I've actually been messing with the dice theory and doing some rough numbers (I mean to write it all up in neat at some point); and do indeed agree that the opponent can matter. Going against Skaven all double blades would be ideal for the most part as you're slicing into lots of rats; whilst if going against stormcast it would be the opposite -wanting to get attacked to generate all the more powerful mortal wounds to hurt those tougher fewer models that they tend to use. 

That said its heartening to sound like you favour more daggers over more bucklers - I must admit the model itself really shines when made with daggers over bucklers and dagger (personal opinion and remembering that I still like them with bucklers). 

60 Double Daggers and 30 Bucklers would certainly give me a nice core to work with that I can vary around and choose what I want from. 

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14 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

I have a snake focussed list using Khailebron

Morathi - mindrazor 

2 Medusa - shroud of despair / Mirror dance (General)

3 Hag (crown of woe)

3 * 10 wyches 

20 bloodsisters

10 bloodsisters  

list can first turn teleport and move Morathi if needed. Can do a snake star that with all buffs kills anything especially due to leadership debuffs and mindrazor. Small witch units can screen and blow through opposition screens.  Army wide minus to hit at range rounds it out. 

How are you getting two artifacts with this list?

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2 hours ago, Tasman said:

How are you getting two artifacts with this list?

I’m not, sorry may not be clear as I was writing in a short format but it’s 1 artifact (crown) and 3 spells. There are two medusa with 1 spell each. 

 

There are also 3 prayers amongst the hags but didn’t write them out. 

Healing / 6 double hit / and count table as turn higher. 

You can use command trait to teleport a hero forward then use mirror dance to swap them with Morathi so she’s on the other side of the table and still allowed to move. Other two spells are just mindrazor and leadership debuff to allow Morathi or the snake star to go upto rediculous damage levels. 

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@Jais and others - I've done a bit of number crunching and added the results to the witches  thread and my blog (check signature)

 

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Sisters of Slaughter... what are they good for?

Just curious why people take SoS over another unit of witch elves.

I paint more than I play, so I don’t have enough strategic experience to understand how to take advantage of their different abilities. Is their role different than Welves? Do you hold them back to counterattack behind the welves? Defensively, to hold objectives?

My current 1,000pt list is Hagg Nar with 20 WE and 10 SoS, along with snakes n’ harpies n’ warlocks, lead by a medusa.

Any advice appreciated!

 

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@Ravenborn Check the thread I just linked, its a discussion between the two.

Basically speaking Sisters of Slaughter have almost the same stats and equipment (double blades for another attack or bucklers for a wound attack and better save); however their whip weapon has a 2 inch range instead of a 1 inch range. Furthermore they've a 6 inch pile in range and movement distance.

They don't have the +1 attack for being within range of a hero; so in theory they can't put out as many attacks as a properly supporting Witch Aelf; however they have increased range and pile in which means that they can more reliably get more of their models actually into close combat than an equivalent number of Witch Aelves. This comes at an increased cost in points, but it does increase their versatility considerably. This is even more the case on tighter boards with more terrain and less open areas. 

It's a trade off - the Witch Aelf has more potential to do damage when in combat; but the Sister of Slaughter always has more chance to get into combat in the first place 

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3 hours ago, Ravenborn said:

Sisters of Slaughter... what are they good for?

Just curious why people take SoS over another unit of witch elves.

I paint more than I play, so I don’t have enough strategic experience to understand how to take advantage of their different abilities. Is their role different than Welves? Do you hold them back to counterattack behind the welves? Defensively, to hold objectives?

 

Basically, the 6 inch pile-in helps to insure they'll strike at full power more often. 

if you charge with two units of witches, one of them will sustain damage before they get to attack, lessening the damage of the second squad a bit (less of a problem when you've got blobs of 30 but very important in small units)

but if you attack with a one squad of witch elves andthen park your SoS outside 3 but within 6 of another, the turn will work out like this: You attack with witches, your opponent has to waste his attack on something that already attacked, then you can pile in and attack with your full strength sisters of slaughter. 

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You can also use the larger pile in to sneak round screens or onto objectives, and extra attack range can help to sneak attacks over screening units sometimes too.

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With sisters of slaughter, can you fail a charge but if your still in 6" pile in and fight anyways?

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11 minutes ago, PUFNSTUF said:

With sisters of slaughter, can you fail a charge but if your still in 6" pile in and fight anyways?

Yes they are pretty nifty.

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Ok, after reading @Jais suggestions and finding my slaughter queen on the cauldron effective, but a bit slow, I have decided to move away from the two towers build I had been going for. 

I'm now going to try a tower and Morathi build similar to Nick Thompson's list from AoS GT. 

Hag Narr

Slaughter Queen on cauldron (general) 

- crimson rejuvenation

- devoted disciples 

Hag queen 

- blessing of  Khaine

- iron circlet

Morathi 

- mindrazor 

20 Blood Sisters 

20 Witch Aelves 

10  Witch Aelves

10 Witch Aelves

5 Khinerai

5 Doomfire Warlocks 

- shroud of despair

 

The killing and holding power of army are in the the SQC, Snakes, and Hag. I'll use Morathi and the Warlocks to further buff them and then either use them to kill or hold off the most powerful enemy units.  I'll also change Morathi immediately to preserve wounds and use her grab objectives or pin down the most powerful units of the enemy so my killing force can catch them move them off the objectives. The Witch Aelves provide board presence and  will work to screen or pin enemy units and hold objectives. I've built all of them with Buckers, so even outside of the SQC's bloodshield they can hold for a turn against smaller units. The Khinerai are simply there for tactical emergencies. 

Once my Morathi and the rest of my Snakes show up I'll let you know how it works. :) 

 

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On 10/20/2018 at 6:48 PM, Ravenborn said:

Sisters of Slaughter... what are they good for?

Just curious why people take SoS over another unit of witch elves.

I paint more than I play, so I don’t have enough strategic experience to understand how to take advantage of their different abilities. Is their role different than Welves? Do you hold them back to counterattack behind the welves? Defensively, to hold objectives?

My current 1,000pt list is Hagg Nar with 20 WE and 10 SoS, along with snakes n’ harpies n’ warlocks, lead by a medusa.

Any advice appreciated!

 

If you're playing Hagg Nar I would suggest a Cauldron. Getting your units on a 4+ or 5+ save with the bloodshield and then a 5+ save after the save is unbelievably good. It makes your hard hitting, but squishy witches, snakes and sisters tanks that can outlast all but the toughest armies and benefit from the more powerful blood rites in the later turns. 

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Anyone else feeling abit anxious with the incoming nerf bat? 

I really hope they don't over react and make this army jump up 400 points. 

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1 hour ago, Olincay said:

Anyone else feeling abit anxious with the incoming nerf bat? 

I really hope they don't over react and make this army jump up 400 points. 

Are there confirmed needs or changes coming? I'm gonna be sad if there are any, I'm just getting back into my DoK.

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