AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Entombet]

2 hours ago, Sttufe said:

I have to agree, what are you even supposed to do against that?

Well in starborne he hawe 4 casts 1 spell do mortals on 5+ to each model in one unit and can cast other spell 3 times that do d3 mortals to 3 units he choose in range.

[Grudgebearer]

I’ve seen the iron sky command battallion in more and more lists, what’s up with that? As far as I can see it only lets us ignore battleshock 🤔 

is that more valuable than the reroll 1s from the escort wing?

[Boar]

1 hour ago, Grudgebearer said:

I’ve seen the iron sky command battallion in more and more lists, what’s up with that? As far as I can see it only lets us ignore battleshock 🤔 

is that more valuable than the reroll 1s from the escort wing?

It`s about what you can pack inside battalion (all heroes) thus lowering drops

[readercolin]

7 hours ago, Grudgebearer said:

I’ve seen the iron sky command battallion in more and more lists, what’s up with that? As far as I can see it only lets us ignore battleshock 🤔 

is that more valuable than the reroll 1s from the escort wing?

To add on to what @Boar said, it is about lowering drops, not ignoring battleshock.

With the Iron Sky Command, you get the following:

1 Ironclad
3-4 heroes
1 unit of battleline Arkonaughts
1-3 units of potentially battleline endrinriggers

This means that you can build the following:

Endrinmaster w/ Dirigible Suit (general)
Navigator
Khemist
Ironclad
20 Arkanaughts
6 Endrinriggers
6 Endrinriggers
6 Endrinriggers

Which comes out to 1830 points, and only a single drop.  It also gets us all of our battleline requirements (and then some), while having options for what hero's we want to bring in.  We then have 170 points that we can fill out, probably with a gunhauler to give us a 2 drop list.  Or we can swap the navigator for a 2nd khemist, and run a block of 40 Arkanaughts to have our entire army as a 1 drop list.  Or add in an Admiral, and we have 30 points to spare.

Meanwhile, if we wanted to run a Grundstock escort wing, we are forced to use Skywardens instead of Endrinriggers, which are mathematically worse in combat than the endrinriggers in any skyport other than Barak-Zon.  Otherwise, we are adding to our drops.  Additionally, we only have battleline in the battalion if we use skywardens and have a suit as our general (2 drops already), or if we run Barak-Urbaz to make gunhaulers battleline, or if we run Barak Nar we can get the thunderers to count as battleline (but still need 2 more units).  This basically boils down to you being very limited with which skyport you want to take to get sufficient battleline, or you are looking at a minimum of 4-5 drops in your army.

In general, the fewer drops your army is the greater your advantage in competitive play.  Having 1-2 drops is giving you the choice of who goes first something around 90% of the time competitively.  Having 4-5 drops drops this down to 50-60% chance of having the choice.  If you want more exact numbers, I believe that Honest Wargamer did a review of what lists people were bringing to a tournament with more exact numbers.

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, readercolin said:

In general, the fewer drops your army is the greater your advantage in competitive play.  Having 1-2 drops is giving you the choice of who goes first something around 90% of the time competitively.  Having 4-5 drops drops this down to 50-60% chance of having the choice.  If you want more exact numbers, I believe that Honest Wargamer did a review of what lists people were bringing to a tournament with more exact numbers

ll true. But can I also add that the honest wargamer himself is very much an advocate of being super high drops so you can respond to their set ups. That gets you the best match up on the table, we can usually reach anywhere on the table regardless of setting up far back, and play late game scoring so turtling for a turn is not the worst for us  

(not necessarily always the best option. But something worth noting.)

[Boar]

9 hours ago, readercolin said:

we are forced to use Skywardens instead of Endrinriggers, which are mathematically worse in combat than the endrinriggers

Poor skywardens😔

6 hours ago, Kramer said:

But can I also add that the honest wargamer himself is very much an advocate of being super high drops so you can respond to their set ups.

You have to remember though that when setting up units from battalion player can deploy all units together, but doesn`t have to. This mitigates advantages of many drops in deployment vs. low drop (due to battalions) enemies.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Boar said:

Poor skywardens😔

You have to remember though that when setting up units from battalion player can deploy all units together, but doesn`t have to. This mitigates advantages of many drops in deployment vs. low drop (due to battalions) enemies.

Absolutely. Just wanted to add it into the context of the choice 

[Sttufe]

1 hour ago, Boar said:

Poor skywardens😔

I always feel bad for them, they seem like they should be more useful, but alas, they are secondary to the riggers in every way.

[Beliman]

Same feeling. I love Endrinriggers with their saws, but I don't know, skywardens seems to not have any role.

Maybe give them some charge bonus (they have pikes, common!) and free retreat+charge (to combo with their mines and the charge bonus). Something like that coudl be cool.

[Grudgebearer]

Hey guys, I have a  question, can my units with the hitcher rule be moved with my Zilfin Ironclad which uses its once per Game free move in the Hero phase? 
 

and if yes, can I deploy them closer than 9“ to an enemy unit? Since the wording is that they can be set up 6“ within the ironclad, which itself has to be more than 9“ away from the opponent?

 

and can the rest Of the garrison, for example Thunderers still embark closer to the enemy in my movement phase and then shoot and charge normally?

[5kaven5lave]

Will try to answer at least some of this:

Hitch depends on Fly High being used, so the next logical question is whether TAABIYLFI can be a Fly High, seem to remember word being that you could and that someone had done it on the GW stream?

Once you’ve hitched, you need to be set up more than 9” from an enemy unit.

As far as I understand, once your movement phase rolls around you can disembark stuff before you move again if you wish. That stuff can’t move but it can shoot / charge if you like. 

Wait for a second opinion before you take this as gospel. 

[Kubrick54]

7 hours ago, Grudgebearer said:

Hey guys, I have a  question, can my units with the hitcher rule be moved with my Zilfin Ironclad which uses its once per Game free move in the Hero phase? 
 

and if yes, can I deploy them closer than 9“ to an enemy unit? Since the wording is that they can be set up 6“ within the ironclad, which itself has to be more than 9“ away from the opponent?

 

and can the rest Of the garrison, for example Thunderers still embark closer to the enemy in my movement phase and then shoot and charge normally?

That is the one thing FAQ didn't address and it's a major one. I'm a Zilfin player myself and here's how I see it. 

1. The hitcher's wording states that the unit can hitch instead of making a normal move. So that would mean they can't hitch as the Zilfin hero phase move is for one unit only (the vessel).

2. BUT! the very next words after those are, in brackets, «as long as this unit has not already made a normal move in the same phase». Because of that, I take it as they can hitch because they have not made a normal move in that hero phase. 

Now RAW, it is debatable as two separate parts of the rule could lead you to two different answers. However, RAI, it's clear that the intend of the rule is that you can't move wholly within six inches of a ship, then fly high or fly high, then move. That is supported somewhat by an «official» video of Warhammer TV when they were previewing the new book against Mawtribes. The KO player used the Zilfin move with a Gunhauler if I remember correctly and hitched a unit of sky riggers while doing so.

As a TO, I ruled that you can hitch with the Zilfin move because the hitchers haven't made a move in the same phase and I see the part in brackets as a clarification on instead of making a normal move, rather than a second condition to be met to make the move. I know other TO's rule it differently. Both could be argued. Unfortunately, only a clear FAQ will settle that debate.

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Kubrick54

[Celadoor]

This is a terrifyingly daft question, but could someone just explain in detail

- what are drops?

- why do they matter?

- how do they affect deployment?

- why do people talk about lowest drops deciding who goes first? (can't find reference to this)

Our group of friends are all new to AoS, and none of us know what drops are.

Any help much appreciated

[Sttufe]

37 minutes ago, Celadoor said:

This is a terrifyingly daft question, but could someone just explain in detail

- what are drops?

- why do they matter?

- how do they affect deployment?

- why do people talk about lowest drops deciding who goes first? (can't find reference to this)

Our group of friends are all new to AoS, and none of us know what drops are.

Any help much appreciated

So, when you set up models you and your opponent will take turns setting up units. Whoever finished first decides who goes first, meaning they can choose whether to go first or second, very important for things like getting a double turn. Battalions are nice because instead of dropping a unit at a time, you can drop the entire battalion at once, however you have less flexibility to respond to your opponents drops. I am not sure where you can find reference, but I think it is in the core rules.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Sttufe

[Celadoor]

2 hours ago, Sttufe said:

So, when you set up models you and your opponent will take turns setting up units. Whoever finished first decides who goes first, meaning they can choose whether to go first or second, very important for things like getting a double turn. Battalions are nice because instead of dropping a unit at a time, you can drop the entire battalion at once, however you have less flexibility to respond to your opponents drops. I am not sure where you can find reference, but I think it is in the core rules.

Ahhh ok, that makes sense, I'd gotten the wrong idea in my head, it probably didn't help that I've only played 1 game and it was a meeting engagement.

Thank you kindly for the help

[Grudgebearer]

Can my Zilfin Skyvessel still move in the movement phase, even if it used its once per game hero phase move from Zilfin?

[readercolin]

11 hours ago, Celadoor said:

This is a terrifyingly daft question, but could someone just explain in detail

- what are drops?

- why do they matter?

- how do they affect deployment?

- why do people talk about lowest drops deciding who goes first? (can't find reference to this)

Our group of friends are all new to AoS, and none of us know what drops are.

Any help much appreciated

To go with what @Sttufe said, drops are units that are placed on the table during set up. 

So if I have an army of say, 1 Endrinmaster w/ Suit, 2 frigates, and 2 arkanaughts, I have an army that is 5 drops, because I must place each unit one at a time.  However, battalions allow you to place any number of models in the battalion at once.  This means that if I were to run the Iron Sky Attack Squadron, I can place the frigates and Arkanaughts into that battalion.  This means that I can now put the endrinmaster down, and then both frigates and arkanaughts can come down all at once.  Alternatively, if I know that my opponent has say, 4 drops, I could go ahead and put the endrinmaster down, then 1 frigate, and then the other frigate + both arkanaughts, and still be guaranteed to finish deploying my army before they can.  Alternatively, if they are a 3 drop army, I can put my endrinmaster down, and then both frigates and both arkanaughts all at once, once again finishing deploying before my opponent.

So why are drops important?  According to the rules, at the beginning of the game, you and your opponent roll off to determine who gets to choose which side of the table they want to play on, and who gets to place the first unit on the table.  Again, according to the rules, whoever finishes deploying first gets to decide who gets to go first/second.  This means that if you have fewer drops than your opponent, you will finish deploying your army before they do, and you will get to decide who gets to go first/second.

So how important is deciding who gets to go first?  Well, that really depends upon your army.  Conventional wisdom says that most armies want to go second, so that way they can try to get the double turn.  However, some armies and some missions would rather go first - usually armies that have some way of eliminating much of the opposing forces before that player even gets to go.  Because of the extreme mobility of Kharadron Overlords, strong arguments can be made that they want to go first, so that way you can shoot off all your opponents key pieces before they even get to move.  However, equally strong arguments can be made that they want to go second, so that way they have a chance of getting in 2 turns of shooting before the opponents get to swing back.

How does this all play out in the end?  Generally, each player starts the game and shares how many drops they have.  If you have fewer drops, you can be more/less aggressive in your deployment, because you know that you will be able to decide who is going first.  If your opponent has fewer drops, you need to decide - do you want to drop your units right on the line to get in to the action right away?  Or do you want to deploy farther back to prevent your opponent from going first and hitting you before you can do anything?  But then if you deploy farther back, can you accomplish anything if your opponent gives you the first turn?  And what happens when you deploy farther back, can't really affect much, and then your opponent gets the double turn and charges you anyways?

All these questions are why drops matter, and how they affect deployment.  And the fact that your opponent has to answer those questions if you have fewer drops is why most competitive players want the fewest, so that they can be the ones asking those questions, not having to answer them.

[Kubrick54]

59 minutes ago, Grudgebearer said:

Can my Zilfin Skyvessel still move in the movement phase, even if it used its once per game hero phase move from Zilfin?

Yes

[sal4m4nd3r]

On 4/12/2020 at 2:12 PM, Kubrick54 said:

Yes

I usually use my zilfin hero phase move turn one to be able to drop Warp lightning vortex, then in the movement phase fly high somewhere else and start blasting. 

Its funny because Zilfin once per game hero phase move is MARKEDLY better then Mhornar's pre-game move. Not only does the pre-game move occur BEOFRE the turn order is chosen (allowing your opponent to completely mitigate its effectiveness) but it prevents you from moving in the first turn...unlike zilfin. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by sal4m4nd3r

[Grudgebearer]

Hey guys,

I would be very interested to hear what kind of lists you are using and what worked out best for you. I’m currently running a Zilfin ironclad list with full thunderers and Warp lightning. Had my first game today and managed to achieve a 24:7 victory against nighthaunt

 

looking forward to hearing from your experiences and your lists

[Zplash]

9 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

I usually use my zilfin hero phase move turn one to be able to drop Warp lightning vortex, then in the movement phase fly high somewhere else and start blasting. 

Its funny because Zilfin once per game hero phase move is MARKEDLY better then Mhornar's pre-game move. Not only does the pre-game move occur BEOFRE the turn order is chosen (allowing your opponent to completely mitigate its effectiveness) but it prevents you from moving in the first turn...unlike zilfin. 

Yeah it's sad. And even the rest of the mhornar port abilities is in the details so stupid... Why once fight first and then adding "in your combat phase". It wouldn't be overpowered or anything if it would give us the the chance to fight first once a game in general... 

The set-up you already explained why it is way worse than zilfin... One small benefit vs the zilfin move is that you don't need the transport endrinwork on your ship to redeploy 15+ dwarfs... But in mhornar only arkanauts are battleline and therefore you always have at least 4 - 5 drops and you will be out dropped in 50% of your games. 

RR battleshock in enemy territory is kind of useless because thunderers already have the ability and arks around objectives too. Only riggers may profit from that outside a iron sky battalion. 

The minus bravery one is a hard one to judge in my opinion. First view I don't see any use... First what means 1 bravery less to 90% of the armies? Second we don't want to be too much in the melee fight anyway and in sniping key pieces it doesn't help too. 

Rund and shoot turn 1 sounds very good. With a closer look you will recognize beside maybe arkanauts you don't have to run anything in your army turn 1... So the zilfin always run 6 is golden in comparison. 

At least the artefact is just the best artefact in the book... That's way I'm so upset with mhornars other abilities... Because I want this artefact :D 

I will try mhornar nevertheless. Loving the challenge and playing outside the mainstream which looks like zilfin/urbaz... (can we even play mainstream if we play kharadron? 😅) 

[Celadoor]

On 4/12/2020 at 6:44 PM, readercolin said:

To go with what @Sttufe said, drops are units that are placed on the table during set up. 

......

Wow, thank you for the very detailed response, it's given me a lot (more) to think about when designing my lists 😂

[Kubrick54]

8 hours ago, Zplash said:

Yeah it's sad. And even the rest of the mhornar port abilities is in the details so stupid... Why once fight first and then adding "in your combat phase". It wouldn't be overpowered or anything if it would give us the the chance to fight first once a game in general... 

The set-up you already explained why it is way worse than zilfin... One small benefit vs the zilfin move is that you don't need the transport endrinwork on your ship to redeploy 15+ dwarfs... But in mhornar only arkanauts are battleline and therefore you always have at least 4 - 5 drops and you will be out dropped in 50% of your games. 

RR battleshock in enemy territory is kind of useless because thunderers already have the ability and arks around objectives too. Only riggers may profit from that outside a iron sky battalion. 

The minus bravery one is a hard one to judge in my opinion. First view I don't see any use... First what means 1 bravery less to 90% of the armies? Second we don't want to be too much in the melee fight anyway and in sniping key pieces it doesn't help too. 

Rund and shoot turn 1 sounds very good. With a closer look you will recognize beside maybe arkanauts you don't have to run anything in your army turn 1... So the zilfin always run 6 is golden in comparison. 

At least the artefact is just the best artefact in the book... That's way I'm so upset with mhornars other abilities... Because I want this artefact :D 

I will try mhornar nevertheless. Loving the challenge and playing outside the mainstream which looks like zilfin/urbaz... (can we even play mainstream if we play kharadron? 😅) 

I agree that Zilfin/Urbaz are our most competitive skyports. But others have their value as well! Even Urbaz has some bad entries (command trait, Endrinwork) and Zilfin as well (command trait). You can make a solid Endrinmaster with dirigible in Zon and Wardens get pretty good. Morhnar ‘ s artefact is a game changer, Thryng has a lot of cool rules and Nar can be pretty good against a magic heavy meta. 
 

While no clear cut number one, it does break the trend of having one obvious super good sub faction in recent books (Petrifex, Conflagration come to mind). That’s a sign of good design for our book. Even with limited unit options, we can have a lot of different builds that can be competitive and fun.

[Zplash]

11 minutes ago, Kubrick54 said:

I agree that Zilfin/Urbaz are our most competitive skyports. But others have their value as well! Even Urbaz has some bad entries (command trait, Endrinwork) and Zilfin as well (command trait). You can make a solid Endrinmaster with dirigible in Zon and Wardens get pretty good. Morhnar ‘ s artefact is a game changer, Thryng has a lot of cool rules and Nar can be pretty good against a magic heavy meta. 
 

While no clear cut number one, it does break the trend of having one obvious super good sub faction in recent books (Petrifex, Conflagration come to mind). That’s a sign of good design for our book. Even with limited unit options, we can have a lot of different builds that can be competitive and fun.

I totally agree and I think the book is a very good and fun one

About the command traits for zilfin and urbaz, you know that you don't have to take them (just choose another general) and therefore you are pretty flexible = good

[Kubrick54]

5 hours ago, Zplash said:

I totally agree and I think the book is a very good and fun one

About the command traits for zilfin and urbaz, you know that you don't have to take them (just choose another general) and therefore you are pretty flexible = good

Yeah I know! But they don't give you a significant boost anyway. If you compare the «mandatory» items from the sky port to some of the best sub-factions from other BT, we don't have that many «can't miss». Yes, the choice to take them depending on the general or hero choice is refreshing and allows us more creativity.