AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Nicholunch]

8 hours ago, Kramer said:

Even then I have the feeling it’s one of the most FAQ’ed tomes. Not to mention one of the warscrolls is reworked from the ground up. 

It’s a very bad/incomplete product as it is. Regardless of faction strength. You wouldn’t accept such a faulty product from a different manufacturer. 

Agreed. It's getting a little absurd with how many documents I have to keep track of and memorize. Unfortunately, I like printed books and so I carry this library with me. I think I'm going to start cutting out the FAQ answers and start taping them into my books. And to think that we are probably 2 years out from a new book seems crazy that the current one will be half wrong by the print.

3 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

@Rachmani

@ Nicolaunch

Completely agree that we should be able to fight from the ships.  I’ve been experimenting with using the terrain garrison rules for the ships, allowing the embarked passengers to shoot and fight from the ship and be targeted in return.  They really help us out without being broken.

As for the Admiral and the Endrinmaster, I guess the first could have his invoke the code looked at again, whilst the latter could be given a points decrease if nothing else could be found.

Also, I really really really think that the khemists (new) augmentation ability should be applicable to the ships.  All the characters should have an effect on the ships imo.

 

I really like the idea of using garrison rules. I'm beginning to do more narrative play (although still love the competition) and I think this could fit in great. I really like that they even brought the ships into it with transport rules. But with the adjustment to disembarking at the beginning of the Hero phase, we'll find them in the ship for an extra turn. Having the ability to shoot that turn (and be shot at) would be great at keeping them competitive. 

1 hour ago, Rachmani said:

We're not saying the Khemist is the problem for the army. We're saying he's the problem regarding future buffs. 
Many armies get +1 attack but to my knowledge only through command abilities. Static buffs most often come in the form of +1 to hit/wound, rerolls or extra saves.

I agree on the matter of admiral & endrinmaster. The former could be helped by the Arkhelian King treatment - meaning Skywardens become battle line when he's the general.

Great point. I think it's fair to make. I just see myself going up against Witch Aelves that only need to be within 8" of their hero and getting an extra attack. Irondrakes getting an extra shot for having 20 strong, death summoning units to fight again, and nurgle subtracting 2 from my hit rolls. I just see the additional attack matching the meta I see around me.

I could see revising that ability as long as we got access to more units and maybe it being specific to certain units. But being that we are limited on units in comparison, I think the static buff is key. Like, what if there was a Endrinmaster mounted on a balloon that provided specific buffs for wardens/riggers, khemists buffed arkanauts and thunderers, and admiral was more focused on ships and army wide command abilities.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, BWG Cannonball said:

verall, I find the Ironclads to be fantastic distractions for the rest of the army to stay safe.  Endrinriggers I've been using as a suicide unit to run up, shoot a ton, and tie down a unit as quick as possible.  The rest is unit selection with thunderers and skyhooks/volley cannnons.  I'm excited to see how it does at NOVA soon.

Thanks for The write up! Always good to read as starting KO player. 

How did you arm the thunderers. They are likely my next purchase and although so much cooler i’m Starting to lean more and more towards all rifles. Supported by a khemist 

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Many armies get +1 attack but to my knowledge only through command abilities. Static buffs most often come in the form of +1 to hit/wound, rerolls or extra saves.

Look no further than the Bloodsecrator, who at 140 points projects an 18" bubble where every unit within 18" gets +1 attack AND battleshock immunity.

 

[Hankster]

Hey All, I just joined TGA. I'm working on a KO army and trying to figure out what works with the new edition. 

I was working towards an alpa strike/clown car build, but I'm not sure if that is still viable. Thoughts?

What are some of the other lists/tactics that seem to be working for people? 

[Rachmani]

1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Look no further than the Bloodsecrator, who at 140 points projects an 18" bubble where every unit within 18" gets +1 attack AND battleshock immunity.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not even saying that it shouldn't exist in the KO army in one form or another (+1 attack Command ability maybe?).

I'm saying that I think it should be part of an overhaul so that our RANGED units won't be held back by its existence. 

In short I'm against "must have"s and "only viable with X" (not to be mistaken for "more viable with X" which imo is good synergy).

But I'm completely with you that no change should be made without an overhaul.

[stratigo]

8 hours ago, Rachmani said:

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not even saying that it shouldn't exist in the KO army in one form or another (+1 attack Command ability maybe?).

I'm saying that I think it should be part of an overhaul so that our RANGED units won't be held back by its existence. 

In short I'm against "must have"s and "only viable with X" (not to be mistaken for "more viable with X" which imo is good synergy).

But I'm completely with you that no change should be made without an overhaul.

our ranged units aren't held back by it. The buff primarily effects aether saws. The only gun it matters for is the sky hook. And I think the sky hook should eat a minor nerf to justify buffing the pike, volley gun, and making our only battleline cheaper.

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, stratigo said:

our ranged units aren't held back by it. The buff primarily effects aether saws. The only gun it matters for is the sky hook. And I think the sky hook should eat a minor nerf to justify buffing the pike, volley gun, and making our only battleline cheaper.

I think @Rachmani meant, that because of the potential of +1 attack the basic shooting attack can't be too good from the get go. So you get the situation were basic shooting is a bit meh, and buffed the units need more points. 

Just like you said, you feel the sky hook should get a little nerf. I assume not because of it's basic profile? The way I see it:

Total picture: KO is a shooting focussed faction. The one and only battleline for that faction has max 3 shots over 12" range. for 120pts. Which means roughly D3 damage a turn*. That's not great... Useful but again not what you expect for a shooting focussed faction. If you add the Khemist it's 2D3 damage a shooting fase, for 120pts and both don't lose effectiveness for the first 7 wounds. That's sounds better than than Judicators for 160pts to me**! Ignored both situational bonuses as they seem comparable. So no reason to nerf it but very much relying on the buff.

I understand that difference makes it hard for the designers to get it exactly right. It's so swingy in that sense. Also the comparison with DoK which I play a bit myself is that the faction is so dependent on synergies that it also becomes the liability. Every hero is a catalyst for the rest of the army. For KO is a bit weirdly in the middle from my (admittedly limited) experience.

*math done off the top of my head. Might be slightly off. 
** again didn't do the math except roughly in my head. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Kramer

[Rachmani]

That's what I meant. Thanks @Kramer for explaining it better!

You're basically saying the same thing, @stratigo. The Skyhook should be nerfed. And I'm saying nerf the Khemist instead, make him less swingy, see where we stand & buff Volleygun & Sky Pike (and points) accordingly.

The difference can also be seen with Skywardens & Endrinriggers. The Latter double their attacks, the former don't get picked. Do you want to nerf Endrinriggers, too? In order to buff Skywardens? I'm saying nerf the Khemist, see where both units stand, then buff.

Now, Skywardens have their own problems, but Khemist doesn't help their cause either.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Rachmani

[stratigo]

If you nerf the khemist, you have to buff every weapon. If you nerf the skyhook, the only change would be making khemists cheaper again.

 

You have to nerf skyhooks anyways since they are always going to be superior to the other options, since the other two weapons are just lackluster. I don't think there will ever be a point where the volley gun is balanced to the level of the skyhook, they will inevitably always be a winner and a loser in that. But the pikes should cater to a different style, and just be strictly mathmatically superior to the ranged weapons to compensate for being a melee weapon on an extremely fragile unit

[Kramer]

11 minutes ago, stratigo said:

If you nerf the khemist, you have to buff every weapon. If you nerf the skyhook, the only change would be making khemists cheaper again.

Hence the suggestion that changing one would also mean changing the other. Just seems to me that the potential of doubling a weapons attacks* is harder to balance than a +1 to wound or an extra -1 rend. ?But seems we won't agree on this, which is perfectly fine. We'll see if and what GW will do with them  

*Which is essentially what it does for the stronger weapons. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Kramer

[Rachmani]

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

If you nerf the khemist, you have to buff every weapon. If you nerf the skyhook, the only change would be making khemists cheaper again.

 

You have to nerf skyhooks anyways since they are always going to be superior to the other options, since the other two weapons are just lackluster. I don't think there will ever be a point where the volley gun is balanced to the level of the skyhook, they will inevitably always be a winner and a loser in that. But the pikes should cater to a different style, and just be strictly mathmatically superior to the ranged weapons to compensate for being a melee weapon on an extremely fragile unit

You're leaving out the Riggers again, but anyway. As Kramer said we probably won't agree on this, so let's just see what (and more importantly when) GW will do with the Overlords. 

They deserve some changes and the sooner the better at that. Way too cool a concept to leave it half-baked.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Rachmani

[Lightbox]

So put together a quick potential list for a 1k core to my army. Main issue being no frigate or the like so may need to tweak.

List.pdf

Some C&C would be very much appreciated, I am at current rather ignorant to how kharadron play these days and best ways to run them. Figured mixing guns on thunderers was bad due to range issues. I also completely forgot to set the gun on the gunhauler, oops. Probably would take drill cannon as it just seems better.

Doppleganger cloak on admiral is mostly because I have a really cool conversion idea for it. But I plan to make that removable so I can also run different artifacts. The one that gives +2 attacks could also be useful for the admiral. Realm is shadow because they are my shadow pirate conversion project so that is unable to be changed.

This is a very quick first draft, and as such is likely more heavy on bodies than it should be. Cool drop some stuff for a frigate? Big boats are cool after all. Though I do also like my balloon men!

[BWG Cannonball]

On 8/20/2018 at 10:50 AM, Kramer said:

Thanks for The write up! Always good to read as starting KO player. 

How did you arm the thunderers. They are likely my next purchase and although so much cooler i’m Starting to lean more and more towards all rifles. Supported by a khemist 

Thanks @Kramer!  I outfit mine all with Rifles.  It ends up being 32 shots, 3+/4+ rerolling for Opportunistic Privateers at -1 Rend.  I've been able to put a bit enough dent in Nagash twice to be able to finish him off first turn with an ironclad or skyhooks.

 

[BWG Cannonball]

So some simple options (in my mind) on how to make the other Arkanaut Company Special Weapons viable would be as follows:

Make the Volleygun 4+/4+ like is on the Endrinriggers and Skywardens

Either give the Skypike a flat 2 damage or increase the hit potential.    OR alternatively increase the attacks characteristic of the Arkanaut Cutters.  The unit isn't meant for close combat which is why the Skypike isn't something to be used.  Maybe give the option of running two cutters and no pistol or something like that for a close combat centric Arkanaut Company.

EDIT: Also, possibly if you do two cutters on the company rather than cutter/pistol, they get an extra attack and hit on 3's or rerolls 1's or something like that.  That way it's equivalent to having 2 shots and a close combat attack.

Edited August 21, 2018 by BWG Cannonball

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, BWG Cannonball said:

EDIT: Also, possibly if you do two cutters on the company rather than cutter/pistol, they get an extra attack and hit on 3's or rerolls 1's or something like that.  That way it's equivalent to having 2 shots and a close combat attack.

 

Sadly that would also mean a redo of the sprues. That won’t happen. 

Also I was happy with the pokes. It’s always nice when you do something in close combat. 

2 hours ago, BWG Cannonball said:

Thanks @Kramer!  I outfit mine all with Rifles.  It ends up being 32 shots, 3+/4+ rerolling for Opportunistic Privateers at -1 Rend.  I've been able to put a bit enough dent in Nagash twice to be able to finish him off first turn with an ironclad or skyhooks.

 

Thanks! That might just have tipped the scales. A well. First enough backlog to finish  

[BWG Cannonball]

16 hours ago, Kramer said:

Sadly that would also mean a redo of the sprues. That won’t happen. 

Also I was happy with the pokes. It’s always nice when you do something in close combat. 

Thanks! That might just have tipped the scales. A well. First enough backlog to finish  

That makes sense with the sprues.  I could see it as an easy conversion, but I'm sure GW would rather have the option in pure model format over forced conversion.

That being said, I do still believe the Volleyguns should be 4+/4+ across the board.  It would make them competitive with Skyhooks.

[ledha]

On 8/20/2018 at 4:57 PM, Thomas Lyons said:

Look no further than the Bloodsecrator, who at 140 points projects an 18" bubble where every unit within 18" gets +1 attack AND battleshock immunity.

 

yeah, but he doesn't make the army busted. Only workable. A khornate army without bloodsecrator is pitiful (with very few exceptions)

[Nick907]

Another thing to consider is that Blood Reavers and Bloodletters are the only Khorne units with only 1 attack, meaning an ability that grants  '+1 attack' isn't doubling the damage output for a Khorne army. KO have several unit/weapon options with only 1 powerful attack, adding an additional attack does double their damage potential.
 

[stratigo]

10 hours ago, ledha said:

yeah, but he doesn't make the army busted. Only workable. A khornate army without bloodsecrator is pitiful (with very few exceptions)

 

And a KO army is just pitiful all the time to compare, but even before all the nerfs, a KO army lacking a khemist or two would have been just as bad. The Khemist is as integral to KO as a Secrator is to khorne. And until they make a ship army good enough, that will remain the case

[Barkanaut]

So how long until the next round of nerfs boys? lol. 

[Lightbox]

So since Khemists are pretty integral how many are recommended. I don't have my book on me but they only affect one unit a turn correct? So would you want a couple (say 2 or 3) to buddy up with some skyhook arkanauts or rifle thunderers?

 

Also having looked at endrinriggers their melee attacks do look potentially nice if khemist buffed and I will be wanting a squad of some balloon men personally. Yay or nay on giving them special rifles? I'm not personally sure if any warrant replacing the pistol and saw.

[Rachmani]

In terms of their melee potential you want them to have saws only. But if you know you won't get them all into fighting range anyway you can add a special weapon or two, let them shoot and remove them as first casualties should your target somehow survive your Khemist buffed onslaught.

As Khemists are pretty expensive I'd always take one & maybe field two but only if I have 2 units that need the buff at the same time. 3 or more in 2000 points are complete overkill & you'd be better of with bigger units to buff.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Rachmani

[Tittliewinks22]

11 hours ago, Barkanaut said:

So how long until the next round of nerfs boys? lol. 

The next time they give us an faq.

[Rachmani]

Two other things I want to put up for discussion, while we're at it.

1. How do you guys think the Arkanaut Company should be adjusted? Personally I think they're lackluster in the melee department (but appear to be designed as melee-/ranged hybrids) & strangely squishy for dwarfs. 

2. What's up with the weapon profiles? They're all over the place, often completely detrimental to how they look on the actual models & have like no consistency. I'm looking at you, Skyhooks. 

[Nicholunch]

7 hours ago, Lightbox said:

So since Khemists are pretty integral how many are recommended. I don't have my book on me but they only affect one unit a turn correct? So would you want a couple (say 2 or 3) to buddy up with some skyhook arkanauts or rifle thunderers?

 

Also having looked at endrinriggers their melee attacks do look potentially nice if khemist buffed and I will be wanting a squad of some balloon men personally. Yay or nay on giving them special rifles? I'm not personally sure if any warrant replacing the pistol and saw.

I usually do 2 Khemists (because that's all I have). I'd be tempted to take a third but that would only be necessary depending on your army build. I usually drop 1 khemist with my endrinriggers w/ saws and 1 with my Arkanaut unit w/ Skyhooks. You could go with Urbaz and allow them to use their ability on 2 different units per turn. This could be useful if you dropped a unit of Thunderers w/ rifles and a unit of endrinriggers and a khemist. The khemist could buff both in one turn.

And if you did that, you could have your battleline in the back with the 2nd khemist giving buffs to 2 separate Arkanaut units with skyhooks.

I think endrinriggers are best with saws but I could see giving them the drill cannon instead of grapnel launchers if you were looking for -3 rend over mobility. But i personally feel too many special weapons for that group takes away from their potential to level units.