AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Siegfried VII]

2 hours ago, Rogue Sun said:

Hey guys, I'm building up the following list for competitive purposes and would love some feedback. Pretty straight forward, Eidolon and Ishlean start on the board and move defensively while the King and Morsarr come on in an ambush.

My two cents are that the way most battle plans work now if you want to go competitive you need bodies to capture objectives. Therefore I think that you must begin the list with at least two 10man units of Eternal Guard. You'll need them for objectives and you'll need them for screen. Your list is good but will lose many games due to very low body count.

[CanHammer-darren]

How did an eel heavy list play 3 places of arcane power?

[Pompe]

Sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but has the Akhelian Kings Commandability been FAQ:d to one use?

[Kirjava13]

56 minutes ago, Pompe said:

Sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but has the Akhelian Kings Commandability been FAQ:d to one use?

It has not. Run (or swim) wild!

[Pompe]

ok! Thnx

[Skinnyboy]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I was wondering if someone could help me out with a rules clarification. Lets say Im playing a mirror match against Deepkin and I have a tidecaster as my general and my opponent does not. If I flip the tides does that mean both players start on Ebb tide or I get ebb tide and my opponent gets low tide or we both get Ebb tide an low tide? Thanks for the help

[Rogue Sun]

I played against Tzeentch for the first time today. Pretty tight game. He won the scenario in the 3 turns we played (I had to leave) but we both agreed I would have likely tabled him given 1 or 2 more turns.

 

My question is how we deal with spell casting? I had an Ionrach Aspect of the Sea with Alchemical Chain and still only managed to stop 1 spell all game. On top of that, our spells felt pretty weak with such short ranges and lack luster results. I felt like 440 points could have just bought me more eels to hunt enemy wizards with.

[CanHammer-darren]

1 hour ago, Rogue Sun said:

I played against Tzeentch for the first time today. Pretty tight game. He won the scenario in the 3 turns we played (I had to leave) but we both agreed I would have likely tabled him given 1 or 2 more turns.

 

My question is how we deal with spell casting? I had an Ionrach Aspect of the Sea with Alchemical Chain and still only managed to stop 1 spell all game. On top of that, our spells felt pretty weak with such short ranges and lack luster results. I felt like 440 points could have just bought me more eels to hunt enemy wizards with.

Yessir. That would be moar eels indeed

[Kirjava13]

9 hours ago, Skinnyboy said:

Sorry if this has been asked before but I was wondering if someone could help me out with a rules clarification. Lets say Im playing a mirror match against Deepkin and I have a tidecaster as my general and my opponent does not. If I flip the tides does that mean both players start on Ebb tide or I get ebb tide and my opponent gets low tide or we both get Ebb tide an low tide? Thanks for the help

I don't believe one army's allegiance abilities affect another, so as counter-intuitive (and confusing narratively) as it may be, I would say that if you flip the tides it only affects your army, not your opponent's.

[whispersofblood]

7 hours ago, Rogue Sun said:

I played against Tzeentch for the first time today. Pretty tight game. He won the scenario in the 3 turns we played (I had to leave) but we both agreed I would have likely tabled him given 1 or 2 more turns.

 

My question is how we deal with spell casting? I had an Ionrach Aspect of the Sea with Alchemical Chain and still only managed to stop 1 spell all game. On top of that, our spells felt pretty weak with such short ranges and lack luster results. I felt like 440 points could have just bought me more eels to hunt enemy wizards with.

Our magic to be plain, is just not good. Currently good magic works from turn 1 in some capacity.

The problem is a lot of the mechanics underlying our faction are already very swingy. Magic on the basis of limited, contested, 2d6 rolls is also extremely swingy.

So you have this issue where if you break down the spells and their affects into quadrants of likelihood. 3 of 4 quadrants leave you cold, and one is extremely powerful. (Stacking hit modifiers, bravery debuff, and DMG)

If the Eidolon was about 100 pts cheaper I could see us having some magic presence, even then I don't think from a strictly rules perspective he would be auto take. As it stands, I just take more stuff and try and kill wizards quickly.

[Skinnyboy]

9 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

I don't believe one army's allegiance abilities affect another, so as counter-intuitive (and confusing narratively) as it may be, I would say that if you flip the tides it only affects your army, not your opponent's.

The thing that's getting me is that it says "Tides of Death... Idoneth Deepkin units with this battle trait  have a different Tides of Death Ability Each round....." So its indicating key word Idoneth Deepkin units and makes no distinction from friendly or enemy. It makes it seem like each army gets both tables.

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Skinnyboy said:

The thing that's getting me is that it says "Tides of Death... Idoneth Deepkin units with this battle trait  have a different Tides of Death Ability Each round....." So its indicating key word Idoneth Deepkin units and makes no distinction from friendly or enemy. It makes it seem like each army gets both tables.

They would have the affects of both tables as far as I can tell. 

[Drofnum]

Not sure if its been mentioned but an Idoneth list took 4th at the Socal Open.

Looks like an interesting list with 15 eels but also a 30 strong unit of Thralls.

[Rogue Sun]

11 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Our magic to be plain, is just not good. Currently good magic works from turn 1 in some capacity.

The problem is a lot of the mechanics underlying our faction are already very swingy. Magic on the basis of limited, contested, 2d6 rolls is also extremely swingy.

So you have this issue where if you break down the spells and their affects into quadrants of likelihood. 3 of 4 quadrants leave you cold, and one is extremely powerful. (Stacking hit modifiers, bravery debuff, and DMG)

If the Eidolon was about 100 pts cheaper I could see us having some magic presence, even then I don't think from a strictly rules perspective he would be auto take. As it stands, I just take more stuff and try and kill wizards quickly.

So are you not taking any wizards at all? I was considering maybe an Archmage just for the cheeky 6+ save here and there and still getting a +1 to unbind. 

[JackStreicher]

On 10/17/2018 at 4:17 PM, MirageFive said:

Are Deepkin really considered that bad outside of the High Tide round? I'm building an Akhelian list and only play casually. It still seems to me like Kings, Eels, and Eidolons will do work on any turn they charge., even without the luxury of everything going first.

ID are strong, absurdly so in turn 3 =}

[whispersofblood]

13 hours ago, Rogue Sun said:

So are you not taking any wizards at all? I was considering maybe an Archmage just for the cheeky 6+ save here and there and still getting a +1 to unbind. 

It depends. In the traditional Volturnos build no. Tidecaster is necessary to reverse tide, but I don't really put any more resources into magic after that. I mostly build for competitive play though. Taking more magic costs points, so its always a question of compared to what else I can take. Especially since out battalions are mostly untakable so we almost always only have the one artefact. Watching my Eidolon get man handled in the hero phase by incantors and evocators left a poor taste in my mouth.

[Nico]

Like the Nurgle Wheel, the Tide Table applies to both armies.

[zombiepiratexxx]

Thinking of starting off with a list based off the new battleforce box. I know it's not massively optimised, but this is for me to learn AoS and the army in general. PLus it has models I like. I know it's not got anything to really make use of the Ionrach abilities, but running Volturnos mandates it. 

 

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin - Enclave: Ionrach

LEADERS

Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280) - General

Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (400)

Isharann Tidecaster (100)

Isharann Soulscryer (100)

UNITS

10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)

3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)

2 x Akhelian Allopexes (280)

TOTAL: 1900/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 102 LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 0/1 ALLIES: 0/400

Not sure what artefact would be good to take. 

[whispersofblood]

53 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Thinking of starting off with a list based off the new battleforce box. I know it's not massively optimised, but this is for me to learn AoS and the army in general. PLus it has models I like. I know it's not got anything to really make use of the Ionrach abilities, but running Volturnos mandates it. 

 

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin - Enclave: Ionrach

LEADERS

Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280) - General

Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (400)

Isharann Tidecaster (100)

Isharann Soulscryer (100)

UNITS

10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)

3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)

2 x Akhelian Allopexes (280)

TOTAL: 1900/2000

EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 102 LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 0/1 ALLIES: 0/400

Not sure what artefact would be good to take. 

Volturnos doesn't make you take Ionarch.

[Skinnyboy]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

Like the Nurgle Wheel, the Tide Table applies to both armies.

Right but is it one table per army or one table for both? If it's one table for both then you reverse it and you both start with the turn 4 ability. If it's one table per army then you reverse yours and both armies get the turn 1 and turn 4 abilities in the first battle round. 

 

If I recall the nurgle wheel specifies that there is one for both armies but the tides of death do not so one table per army then?

[Sonnenspeer]

Just had my first test games with my 1000p ID army. I don’t understand why each ID mount must have two different attacks. It’s just unnecessary time consuming. For example the Allopex; I don’t care of Scythed Fins, I want its Bite to work and do damage. It would be much more fun if GW removes the Fin Attack but adds one attack to the bite when the shark uses the ability to charge a wounded pray. See attached

Spoiler

Spoiler

And as the eels will get a nerf anyway, just remove the tail attack...

 

[whispersofblood]

42 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Just had my first test games with my 1000p ID army. I don’t understand why each ID mount must have two different attacks. It’s just unnecessary time consuming. For example the Allopex; I don’t care of Scythed Fins, I want its Bite to work and do damage. It would be much more fun if GW removes the Fin Attack but adds one attack to the bite when the shark uses the ability to charge a wounded pray. See attached

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

And as the eels will get a nerf anyway, just remove the tail attack...

 

You want to trade 4 quality rend 1 attacks, for 1 additional gimmick attack?

I don't want to come across as overly rude. However, maybe don't read too much into your first game, and get some practice in before critically analyzing warscrolls.

The mounts have different attack types because in an elite army you have to expect your models to be able to engage multiple types of enemy models. Each attack profile is good against different types of models, as well as both being good against hordes. 

Provides some resistance to negative hit modifiers, and is synergistic with our 1 and only  command ability.

High utility is what seperated good elite armies from terrible elites armies. 

Get some different coloured dice and get on with it.

[Nico]

The fact that the description of the table refers to Idoneth Deepkin Units without saying “friendly” is a pretty clear indication that there’s only one Tide for both/all players. Furthermore the table entries themselves refer to “all units” - not “friendly”.

It would also be an absurdity if it was High Tide and Ebb Tide at the same time on the same table.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Nico

[whispersofblood]

If the combat ability of eels is nerfed I'd probably just bin the faction tbh. There isn't anything else there. 

IDK are well within the margins of balance of factions with a Battletome. IDK armies have a lack of diversity because the model range has a lack of diversity. We are the only faction (with a time) containing more units with the hero keyword than without. A full third of the units in the faction are eels. If you take a King as general, which is heavily incentivized since it's the only command ability, then eels are 2/3 of the battleline options available. 

This IDK or Eels are overpowered troupe needs to die. I haven't observed a single suggestion to change IDK that doesn't make them the worst faction with a Battletome. In a faction that doesn't have quality monsters, doesn't cast magic, doesn't have strong shooting (inside a game that heavily punishes shooting). People want to nerf the only thing it does well, move fast and fight slightly above average. The wounds per point and DMG per point values are all reasonable.

[Nico]

Agreed - it’s laughable to suggest that Deepkin are top tier or overpowered when Legions of Grimghasts or Daughters of Khaine are dominating the top tables.

Idoneth are pretty predictable and basically a melee-only Cavalry army with Deepstrike (with some choppy but fairly priced elite infantry - Thralls). 

The game needs elite armies and Idoneth are the main one of those (everything else is spamming 30 of this or 40 of that and Grots aren’t even back on the menu yet).

It takes 12 Eels on the charge to delete a block of 30 Witch Aelves and not by a wide margin. Only 8 Witches die to the Electro Discharge). If you roll poorly on the Spears, then the remnants are doing 4 attacks back at you. If they have Blessing of Khaine - you can assume that the 10 remaining Witches will kill most of your Eels (40 Attacks at 3+ with exploding, 4+ rerolling, -1 rend, 2 Damage),

Edited November 1, 2018 by Nico