AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Maddpainting]

I love this update for IDK honestly, Eidolons, Sharks, Leviadons, all came down, perfect.

[kozokus]

The Akhelian Korp is -5/6 drops in my army. It gets me to 3-4 drops and allow me to reliably determine the first turn, which is crutial when you run a fragile and fast army. Now all the units in the bataillon are great and it costs ony 100 points which is one of the cheapest in the game that contain that much drops.

[tripchimeras]

I am really excited for these changes.  I think in particular Sharks are FINALLY close to where they should be.  I think at 100pt they are a no brainer filler unit at the very least that is going to be very easy to fit in.  Which is great for aesthetic army diversity.  But I think there is potential for them to become integral army pieces now.  I've talked about this before, but the fact that they generally fill the same roll as eels has always meant that it is going to be exceedingly difficult for both to be useful at same time, but at 100pts I think we are closer to an equalibrium then we've been before.  Were talking about roughly a .2 damage per point difference at this point, down from a .5 difference when the book was first released.  And this doesn't factor in things like the sharks doing optimal damage until death, while the effectiveness of the same points worth of eels slowly degrades, or the fact that the sharks do more damage after the charge.  I think another 20pt shark drop would actually tip things in the sharks favor, so seems like 90pts would basically be the equilibrium point where shark and eel value are essentially in balance.

But at 100?  I think its cheap enough that they are going to be great filler no matter what, but also that they are just about good enough to be taken in their own right as an important unit.  Think eels still have edge, but I think at 100pts, and I can't believe I am saying this, but the sharks are cheap enough that I think the shooting actually becomes elevated from a complete non-factor to something that gives them a slight bonus.  2-4 sharks shooting aren't doing ******, but 8?  All of a sudden we are talking about 10 wounds a turn pre-armor. 8 have potential to clear out a chaff unit a turn, that is not insignificant and can really help with clearing out screens.  At 120 or 140, 8 was impractical, but at an even 800pts I think you can almost justify it.  Its a substantial price drop imo that might actually alter army composition.  And why not use them similarly to msu eels (or in conjunction with them) to clear out the leadership issues.  I'm still not positive massed sharks at 100 make sense in a purely competitive sense, but I think we are VERY close, and we will 100 percent see sharks at some level in competitive lists now.  I am maybe over-hyping this a bit, and am clearly over the moon about sharks haha, but I had basically stopped playing eels (er I mean deepkin) all together in favor of Orruks because I was so tired of eel spam.  This gives me hope.

The other changes are nice, I think at 360pts the Eidolon of Storm is still a bit Overpriced but I think he is now in the realm Sharks were at 120, close enough that we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and worth experimenting with competitively.  Similarly I think the turtle is in same place.  The last point drop was basically meaningless, but 310pts is getting close.  And I think if you combine the shark pt drop with the turtle pt drop, the Akhelian Corp goes from a competitive pipe dream to something worth experimenting with.  Yes please, I would like my 100pt sharks served with a side of 3+ armor saves :). 

While I know some have had moderate success with the Eidolon of the Sea, I am still very sceptical.  There might be room for a fun experiment with mage heavy Ionrach list, which could help offset their biggest weakness, but I am still very sceptical at 380.  To make them work to full effect you basically need a tidecaster to get of steed of tides on them, then successfully cast both of your de-buffs in a row from close range, preferably one with sands of infinity enabled.  Even at +1 to cast and having 1 reroll a turn, I don't feel super confident about depending on that on a regular basis, and even then you need to hope they don't then get destroyed due to their close proximity to the enemy.  If there was a way to get them 3 casts a turn, so they could also cast the steed of tides themselves, I'd feel better about it maybe, but you are depending on a tidecaster without the re-rolls to do it, and on top of that I think Ironrach would be a must to get the reliable spellcasting, and then you are sacrificing all of the amazing Dom-heim and fuethen bonuses.  They still feel like a flawed unit to me tbh.

Overall though very happy, and this has definitely reinvigorated my enthusiasm for Deepkin a bit, though the experimentation may have to wait a month or two, while I still am experiencing the thrill that is steam-rolling people with a giant ork like cabbage, however blasphemous that may be :).

 

EDIT: Also should be noted that at 100pts defensively a shark is .1dpp better then morrsarr due to their relative # of wounds.  So while they are .2 worse on offense they are .1 better on defense.  So the difference per point is actually .1 wound total.  Illustrates how close they are to being competitive with eels.  Voltaic blast outweights the sharks shooting still obv, but between their superiority on non charge turns, their greater damage efficiency damaged it begins to compensate for things like slightly lower movement.  I really do think 10pts is all that is separating them from standing at an even position with eels on our efficiency charts.  and that is pretty darn cool in my book.

Edited December 17, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Kitsumy]

Idk need warscroll changes asap.

 

Thralls are useless for me untill they get 2" on his weapons, they wield massive 2 hand weapons but have the same range as tiny goblin knifes lol, right now they are paper tin with bad armor save and wont kill anything since there isnt any way to field on units bigger than 10, since only 7-10 will usually fight, unless u fighting against huge units. So they wont destroy the unit they charge and will die back always.

 

Sharks should cost 85p, so still overpriced but they are playable on friendly games now.

 

Melee avatar is a beast stick but have the stats of other same units that cost 250-300 soo he need to go down to 300 minimun.

Mage one is even worse, his dmg is a joke, around 6? Hacent bonus to cast, only 1 reroll in exchange of his healing, havent more nice abilitys, no command ability, and only 2 casts??? And idk spells are sooo bad, even the hero teleport one is useless when lots if armys have 4 or 5 op spells AND a spell to teleport any unit not only heros.  Other mage beasts like verminlords, keepers, unclean one or arkhan, do so much dmg than him, have bonus to casts,have amazing auras, abilitys, COMANDS abilitys etc. And all them cost  around 250-350 do yeah, no reason to mage avatar costing more than 300 rught now, or even at 280 it wouldnt be an auto include.

 

Tidecaster has the worst stats among ever mage, dont get why cost 100 instead 80, a human mage cast 1 ( 2 on mage sect)spells with +1 to cast and cost 90 lol

 

Turtle is useless since it is only a beast stick, since the aura is useless 99% if the time,

turn 1?? We allready have cover.

Turn 2?? We will be charging since we can run and charge.

Turn 3?? Again charging since we will retreat and charge.

 

Same will hapen on reversetide, so it is only useful on some niche cases where u loose iniciative on the beggining of turn 2 or 3, thats it. And as beast stick cant cost more than 220-250p doing only around 10 dmg only, aura should be changed to +1 save.

 

 

In general we are in dire need of a new tome, sure we can be competitive, around 8-9 place on tournamments data, only spaming eels, but in general thats pretty low, and only spaming our "op unit". We need all above changes on scrolls. New proper magic not this useless spells, new relics, command traiths etc, and of course a 3+ prayers, not those jokes prayers at 10+ jaja. 

 

And of course akhelian command shouldnt need to be general or be on high tide , since lots of armys have a generic +1 atack aura command allready without downsides. Aand add more comand abilitys to avatars, and maybe octo guy.

 

Boat isnt aging well neither, every new terrain is so much stronger now, u only need to see the new boneteaper one haha

 

 

But at least those changes are nice for casuals games( like i play) i gained 120 points on my list

[Drofnum]

Maybe you would enjoy a different army more? I can't really agree with most of what you're saying, the army is in a pretty decent place honestly. Some units may still need slight point drops, but Lotann is about the only truly unplayable unit. 

[Kitsumy]

Why? Give any data.

 

I can show u how they are on 8th place on tournaments. Only spaming eels since they are our only viable units. It is a fact, not people saying " all ur saying and showing is wrong, everything is fine. Because i say it with 0 info behind that"

 

Show me any tome with:

Worse magic spells

Worse relics

Worse command thraiths

Worse prayers, if u can call our jokes prayers lol

Worse command abilitys,, oh wait our since command ability haha

Any beast mage with 2 cast that do less dmg or have worse abilitys than our mage avatar, i wont ask for same points, even cheaper ones are way better.

 

Then we could start having a conversation

[Drofnum]

17 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Why? Give any data.

 

I can show u how they are on 8th place on tournaments. Only spaming eels since they are our only viable units. It is a fact, not people saying " all ur saying and showing is wrong, everything is fine. Because i say it with 0 info behind that"

 

Show me any tome with:

Worse magic spells

Worse relics

Worse command thraiths

Worse prayers, if u can call our jokes prayers lol

Worse command abilitys,, oh wait our since command ability haha

Any beast mage with 2 cast that do less dmg or have worse abilitys than our mage avatar, i wont ask for same points, even cheaper ones are way better.

 

Then we could start having a conversation

Honestly its not really worth the argument.  You have your mind made up, and even if they are 8 in tournaments(whatever that means) that isnt a BAD place to be in.  Spamming eels is one of the more viable lists but so is Namarti Corps which has 40 Namarti.

 

We arent a casting army, we arent a prayer army, of course they arent as powerful as other allegiances. Command abilities do need work, command traits are okay but not great and artifacts are decent.  These definitely dont make the army useless though or even bad.  We're a Tier 1/2 army for the most part with some minor issues.

[Maddpainting]

37 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Why? Give any data.

 

I can show u how they are on 8th place on tournaments. Only spaming eels since they are our only viable units. It is a fact, not people saying " all ur saying and showing is wrong, everything is fine. Because i say it with 0 info behind that"

 

Show me any tome with:

Worse magic spells

Worse relics

Worse command thraiths

Worse prayers, if u can call our jokes prayers lol

Worse command abilitys,, oh wait our since command ability haha

Any beast mage with 2 cast that do less dmg or have worse abilitys than our mage avatar, i wont ask for same points, even cheaper ones are way better.

 

Then we could start having a conversation

Um.. BoC lol.

I actually like IDK spells and Relics, i always pick their relics first (I always use a battalion) over other realm relics, i even made my tidecaster a 1/2 bubble water effects to show the buoyancy bubble, steeds of tides is just amazing too.

And you CAN be a ok casting army, +1 to cast isnt a bad trait, for general use, i've done 2 tidecasters and eidolon (its even better now) with Namarti corps, with a few ishlaen guard, relics for casting, and it did really well, the Eidolons Tsunami of terror with Tidecaster riptide and Tide of Fear, it was really good, the Ishlaen basically never took much damage at all, at one point had a unit hitting them with -3 to hit.

Not saying its GT worthy, but its still viable, and some of the relics are game breaking goo, like Cloud of Midnight, thats insane against shooting armies. Put it on a Eidolon up front and pop it vs a turn you need it.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Acid_Nine]

16 hours ago, kozokus said:

The Akhelian Korp is -5/6 drops in my army. It gets me to 3-4 drops and allow me to reliably determine the first turn, which is crutial when you run a fragile and fast army. Now all the units in the bataillon are great and it costs ony 100 points which is one of the cheapest in the game that contain that much drops.

Well when you put it that way it starts looking better. I didn’t know about it being the cheapest battalion, so that is pretty neat and makes it seem better.

 

I don’t fully agree with the griping about the turtle, as I always enjoyed it even before the points drop, but I do agree with kitsumy about the command abilities being in need of a rework. Can’t say i’m to happy with having my king’s Ability only work once a game, and through the turns sometimes he is just not in a good position to use it on anyone but himself. It’s kinda sad and I hoped he had gotten a points decrease too, but I am not too choked up by it.

 

@tripchimeras

well you convinced me to start getting more sharks, that’s for sure. How do you feel about the risk of losing more to battleshock?

[Maddpainting]

I never use the kings ability, but IMO we have one of the strongest Command abilities in the game and IDK why more players are not using it, the Royal Council, 3CP turn one with that is stupidly good. 

My Tournament list is
King
Tidecaster - Buoyancy Bubble
Soulscryer - Thermalcloak Rider
Morrsarr x9
Morrsarr x6
Ishlaen x3
Thralls x20
+CP
Cogs
Royal Courts

I haven't lost with that list yet, not GT's and only 10-16 man or events (I like my BoC for high up events b.c i find playing 5 games with them more fun, i dont like playing 5 games with IDK, they are a 1 trick pony to me).

Turn one to give out 3" movement to 3 units 3 times is just stupid. Having 100% guaranteed turn 1 charge with a 9 and/or 6 man eel unit to just 1 turn out a couple important units. Instantly won turn 1 a couple times vs SCE, Death, and Slaanesh. Having 15 chances of MW's and still the 9man unit able to attack and killing something is very scary. With that large movement you can easily get where you need to be, if you get Cogs, with a +5" charge and re-roll you can even easily kill off multi units turn 1. I have never turn 1 charged Thralls, i like to save them for turn 3 if i can, or hit something off a close objective.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Drofnum]

I would just like more command abilities.  The King's is a really nice one and I think having it only usable during high tide is a nice trade off for being able to stack it.  I just want to have something to use command points on if I dont have a King or dont need +3 attacks.

 

[Maddpainting]

Yeah i get that for sure.

[Sonnenspeer]

 

18 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

...or the fact that the sharks do more damage after the charge. 

....

 Yes please, I would like my 100pt sharks served with a side of 3+ armor saves :). 

...

I do like the shark, too. But could you please explaine why the shark do more damage after the charge? And how can it get a 3+ armor save, as 8 Wound MONSTERs dont benefit from cover?

Edited December 18, 2019 by Sonnenspeer
"Monster" added

[Gilboy]

1 hour ago, Sonnenspeer said:

 

I do like the shark, too. But could you please explaine why the shark do more damage after the charge? And how can it get a 3+ armor save, as 8 Wound models dont benefit from cover?

8 wound MONSTERS don't benefit from cover.   Normal models do

[Sonnenspeer]

4 minutes ago, Gilboy said:

8 wound MONSTERS don't benefit from cover.   Normal models do

True, changed my post above as Allopexes are monsters

[Gilboy]

11 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

True, changed my post above as Allopexes are monsters

It's important for us Deepkin players to keep reminding opponents that Volturnos and Eidolons do get cover    People forget that "monster" qualification 

[tripchimeras]

 

3 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

 

I do like the shark, too. But could you please explaine why the shark do more damage after the charge? And how can it get a 3+ armor save, as 8 Wound MONSTERs dont benefit from cover?

True, I was getting overly excited, good correction (not exactly a combo I have had in my army more then once or twice before, I've generally only played 1 or 2 "bad" units in army at once in past haha).  As for the after the charge comment, what I meant was that in subsequent rounds of combat after the charge  or when they are the chargee they are a bit more damage efficient then the eels when factoring in rend.

 

@Acid_Nine its a concern.  I think its going to be an experimentation thing.  I really don't have experience fielding more then 2 at a time.  Since GHB19 I've usually been putting a unit of 2 in non-tourney/non-tourney prep games just for the variety, and I've found them to do plenty to justify their cost, outside of the pure competitive efficiency comparison to eels, knowing they would do better ofcourse.  I think the big thing is as long as you have 3 or less you will never lose more then 1 to battleshock without negative modifiers, and it will only ever happen (usually) on a 6.  I think you are going to make efforts to keep them in range of a char more then you would for eels, but then again its not a bad idea for eels either, so the tactics don't change drastically.  Their reduced movement also makes it easier for a foot character to stay within range to begin with, and I have found myself naturally taking a more conservative battlefield role with them then I would with eels so it hasn't been a huge issue (though has reminded me that I am usually too aggressive with eels). So yeah I'd probably guess the best plan is to stick to units of 3 or less, airing on the side of less is more.  I think in all likelihood the rule of exponential growth is going to apply, where you either want 1 or 2 just to fill out points, or you want like 8 lol.   WIthout that last 10-20 pt discount, eels are still def stronger, but I think the thought of 8 isn't laughable now, and might win some games... maybe.

Edited December 18, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Kitsumy]

i love when numbers and time shows how im right.

Honestwargamer just make a video with the analisis of changes and of course he said the massive point drop on eidolons shows how BAD those ones were at the beginning, and they are still bad at actual points, and should be around 300points, even lower than 300 would be okish since they are worse than beasts like verminlords or keepers.....

So a pro analitical guy and his team said the same thing as me, numbers show im right( noone uses those models since they are useless), they are worse and cost more than similar beasts in orher tomes. BUT everytime i have said that since they were released i got tipicals replys like u dont know how to play, change army,they are good and problem is u dont know how to play etc etc

Despite i show numbers and solid reasons, not like those random guys replys

Like some post above haha

[Sonnenspeer]

As a geantleman you should enjoy this childish joy in silence 😉

Edited December 18, 2019 by Sonnenspeer

[Drofnum]

I did some math around Morrsarr and Allopex, comparing 170 points of eels to 200 points of sharks is about the closest we can get.

Allopex will do around 7.6 damage(with shooting) on average vs a 4+ save, 6.2 dmg without shooting . Morrsarr will do 7.11 if they charge and only 2.8 if they do not charge, also vs a 4+ save.

So the Allopex isnt really far off of the eels in terms of damage efficiency, I dont think I would ever take more than 2 in a unit but they could be very nice for MSU and an alternative to eels in some situations. It also make Akhelian Corps much more appealing now that they arent nearly as much of a tax as they were before.

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, Kitsumy said:

i love when numbers and time shows how im right.

Honestwargamer just make a video with the analisis of changes and of course he said the massive point drop on eidolons shows how BAD those ones were at the beginning, and they are still bad at actual points, and should be around 300points, even lower than 300 would be okish since they are worse than beasts like verminlords or keepers.....

So a pro analitical guy and his team said the same thing as me, numbers show im right( noone uses those models since they are useless), they are worse and cost more than similar beasts in orher tomes. BUT everytime i have said that since they were released i got tipicals replys like u dont know how to play, change army,they are good and problem is u dont know how to play etc etc

Despite i show numbers and solid reasons, not like those random guys replys

Like some post above haha

You brought no numbers, you brought another persons opinion. Rob would be the first to admit he is wrong at times.

So lets look at numbers, Verminlord Deceiver is 320 points, Eidolon of the Sea is now 380. Against a 4+ save the Verminlord does 8.445 damage, while the Eidolon does 5.467 on average. The Deceiver has a 5+ save against wounds and -2 to hit from shooting, both are 2 cast wizards with similar move/wounds but the Deceiver degrades as he takes wounds and has a 4+ instead of a 3+ save.  Eidolon gets to reroll casts(on average this is better than +1 to cast) or heals for D3 but does not degrade as he is wounded, gets cover, wont get shot unless you let him and can fly.

Is the Eidolon 60 points better than the Verminlord?  I dont think so, but he's really not that far off. I may have missed something on the Verminlord as I dont know Skaven that well but everything from the warscroll is factored in.

 

Edit: Eidolon of the Storm does 10.705 damage, pretty decent beat stick honestly.  Just not much else in the way of utility.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Drofnum

[Kitsumy]

It is easier to do numbers per points, so u dont need to compare more points versus less points.

 

Per example my analisis on sharks and eels is:

                                               Shark-------------------morsar-----------------------,ishlaen

Wounds per point:      0,08.                ----              0,07.                   -----                 0,086

Dmg :.                   1,32(rang)+4,73.     ----   10,56(chg)7,92(normal).  ----      9,24

Dmg per point:.        0,06.              ----           0,062 or 0,046.             -----           0,066

Average rend:.  Slighty less 1.           ---        1 or 0.                      ------                     0

Points:.  Have ranged,         ----   0,017 mortals per point 1time---.  Invulnerable save

                  no decreasing stats.                                                                                     3+save on charge

 

 So i think people always though morsar were better they really are on paper and i never thought they deserved the people hate, in fact i see sharks better now, at least number wise. And i always liked ishlaen, they are though and do the same dmg per point than spears one, only losing some rend, but dont rely on charges            

Edited December 18, 2019 by Kitsumy
Grammar

[Overread]

Mod Hat

Just a friendly reminder to take a breath and pause every so often people. We can all get quite riled up when talking numbers and powers of armies that we have a passion for. Lets not let our passions get us carried away. Friendly open debate and discussion on the numbers/merits and problems of an army is perfectly fine. Both the positive and the negative are important and good to discuss. 

However its also equally important to respect that when we present our argument and our facts and opinions that not all will agree to them. Sometimes you must agree to disagree even if you go into great depth. 

[Kenvs]

Im just going to put it out there that 100 pt sharks are potentially broken good, they were already relatively scary at 120.  The main bonus sharks have over Morsarr is the fact they have Rend even if they don't charge.  I played alot of deepkin over 2018 running reverse tide 3x6 Morsarr and they are great until they charge a unit they can't kill, like all our new bonereaper friends.  Once that happens they lose all of their damage and slowly get whittled away.

Running a list as per the below gives you 9 Ishlaen eels for turn 1 and 2 screening, turn 3 you dump up to 12 sharks with a bonus 3 attacks (per profile) each, that will ruin 3 units.  You also have enough sharks to sacrifice in 1 unit early if needed and enough shooting to scare 5w characters hiding out the back.  If you want more heroes drop a shark or 2, they are very easy to swap in and out at 100pts each.

Volturnos, High King of the Deep (280) - General
Isharann Tidecaster (100)

UNITS
4 x Akhelian Allopexes (400)
4 x Akhelian Allopexes (400)
4 x Akhelian Allopexes (400)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)

[Koradrel of Chrace]

Not sure if the Tidecaster really adds anything to that list.  He's not keeping up with the rest of your forces, and isn't going to be force multiplying much.  Maybe a Soulscryer instead for potential ambushes with the sharks?  And what enclave would you use?