AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[DanielFM]

4 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said:

I’m anticipating the morrsarr nerf in GHB19 and trying out aggressive builds without them.  Two Eidolons of the Storm are actually pretty decent and have some advantages.   Running  tidecaster fuethan they get to retreat, run and charge on turns 1, 3 and 5.  On turn 4 they get a 2+ save if you don’t want to charge (cast mystic shield for further fun).  They hit consistently strongly (especially if buffed with artefacts) and, given retreat and charge, they can charge every single turn and are more flexible than the eels.    They heal on the charge as well and don’t degrade at all with damage.  With artefacts they can be given mortal wound protection too which eels lack.  Finally they still have rend even if charged, which is a real problem for the eels.

I have been experimenting running 2 x of the storm plus namarti corps (for second artefact).  Tool one up as an absolute beast in damage output (I like e.g. Blade of Symmetry on the spear or sword of judgement on the stormshoal) and the other one with mortal wound protection (mirrored cuirass is good fun).    Build the remainder of the list to get a semi-reliable Isharann ritual (I aim for 6+) and you have two beasts healing 1+D3 every turn, rerolling all failed hits, rerolling 1s to wound, punching out damage 3-4 attacks on -2 rend.  I have charged the mirrored cuirass Storm into 9 eels and wiped them (reflect mortal wounds back, a few lucky-ish rolls followed by failed battle shock)

You get 6 and 9 Morsarr for those points. Are you sure you wouldn't be better with them? Only in wounds, that's 60 over 24.

Yes, it can change if Morsarr get nerfed (and hopefully Eidolon get cheaper) but right now I don't see the point.

[Drofnum]

16 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

You can take Comet spell through allies? never looked into that before.

The comet isnt faction specific in any way.  You could take it in basically any army, you just cant cast it unless you have a stormcast wizard, which are easy enough to ally in.

[Acid_Nine]

Well, any hype for idoneth being all but confirmed for warcry? I am looking forward to the starter, and having idoneth means I would be adding 3 armies to try in that game.

 

but it's probably going to be nothing but thralls for it, so I would have to buy some unless they allow all eels there too. Way way too early to tell, but I'm excited none the less.

[ServiceGames]

So, while I don't have any of these models now and may be a bit before I can get them all together, what would you all consider the best first 1000 points to collect for Idoneth Deepkin.  I'm not in any way competitive.  I'm just around to have fun, but I do love these models.

Thanks in advance!

SG

[Aelven supremacy]

3 minutes ago, ServiceGames said:

So, while I don't have any of these models now and may be a bit before I can get them all together, what would you all consider the best first 1000 points to collect for Idoneth Deepkin.  I'm not in any way competitive.  I'm just around to have fun, but I do love these models.

Thanks in advance!

SG

It depends on what you want.  I personally love all the models except for the eels which is a difficult situation as all the competitive builds are eel-heavy!  If you are like me then just go for namartis, all the isharanns and then any of the heros you like or even the turtle.  If you want competitive then key units to buy are eels, soulscryer(s) and then tidecaster and/or Akhelian king.  If tidecaster then you will need some namarti thralls anyway so they could be a good start no matter what route you end up choosing!

[ServiceGames]

2 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said:

It depends on what you want.  I personally love all the models except for the eels which is a difficult situation as all the competitive builds are eel-heavy!  If you are like me then just go for namartis, all the isharanns and then any of the heros you like or even the turtle.  If you want competitive then key units to buy are eels, soulscryer(s) and then tidecaster and/or Akhelian king.  If tidecaster then you will need some namarti thralls anyway so they could be a good start no matter what route you end up choosing!

I'm more of an Akhelian guy (probably should have mentioned that earlier).  I'm sure this is not the only army that is viable with only mounted soldiers, but the idea is very cool!  I'm not saying Foot Soldiers are a bad idea, but I'm leaning more toward an Akhelian list with all mounted soldiers (Volturnos, Guard, Allopexes, and eventially a Leviadon or two if I go for 2000 points somewhere down the road.).

Right now, my idea (which is probably terrible) is something like:

Volturnos
Ishlean Guard
Morrsarr Guard
3 x Allopexes

That comes out to exactly 1000 points

Any input is appreciated

[Aelven supremacy]

1 minute ago, ServiceGames said:

I'm more of an Akhelian guy (probably should have mentioned that earlier).  I'm sure this is not the only army that is viable with only mounted soldiers, but the idea is very cool!  I'm not saying Foot Soldiers are a bad idea, but I'm leaning more toward an Akhelian list with all mounted soldiers (Volturnos, Guard, Allopexes, and eventially a Leviadon or two if I go for 2000 points somewhere down the road.).

Right now, my idea (which is probably terrible) is something like:

Volturnos
Ishlean Guard
Morrsarr Guard
3 x Allopexes

That comes out to exactly 1000 points

Any input is appreciated

In general the Allopexes are not considered to be amazing (especially when compared to morrsarr guard).    The competitive change to your build would be dropping them in favour of more Morrsarr plus a soulscryer.  

 

The Allopexes are cool models though... 

[ServiceGames]

9 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said:

In general the Allopexes are not considered to be amazing (especially when compared to morrsarr guard).    The competitive change to your build would be dropping them in favour of more Morrsarr plus a soulscryer.  

 

The Allopexes are cool models though... 

So, should it be all Morrsarr Guard without any Ishlean Guard?  Or at least one Ishlean Guard and just more Morrsarr Guard?

Thanks

SG

EDIT: something like this:

Isharann Soulscryer
Volturnos
Ishlean Guard
3 x Morrsarr Guard

Edited April 1, 2019 by ServiceGames

[Aelven supremacy]

20 minutes ago, ServiceGames said:

So, should it be all Morrsarr Guard without any Ishlean Guard?  Or at least one Ishlean Guard and just more Morrsarr Guard?

Thanks

SG

EDIT: something like this:

Isharann Soulscryer
Volturnos
Ishlean Guard
3 x Morrsarr Guard

I suggest you just play test with them in different ratios of Ishlaen to Morrsarr.   Most builds go Morrsarr heavy but see what you like.  Just put the eels together but don’t stick on the spear or the sword until you’ve played a few games and decided which eel ratio works best for you

[ServiceGames]

Just now, Aelven supremacy said:

I suggest you just play test with them in different ratios of Ishlaen to Morrsarr.   Most builds go Morrsarr heavy but see what you like.  Just put the eels together but don’t stick on the spear or the sword until you’ve played a few games and decided which eel ratio works best for you

Great advice, thanks!

SG

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

So are all eel armies competitive? And are the defensive version of eel riders actually tough or just tough in comparison to usual elf stuff (as in can they stand up to nurgle or similar tanky armies)

[Maddpainting]

Eels are very competitive, most will run 15-18 of them, some will run 2x9 other 3x6 (im a 6man unit myself) some will have 12 Morrsarr only, others will have 1 unit of Ishlaen (Morrsarr are the damage dealing ones), so you can see its a mix, it really depends on your local (if you have Alliance shooting spam or not basically) 

I have 9 of each, and personally i like 9 Morrsarr and 6 Ishlaen b.c i love the 3+ that cant be rend (I play with the Turtle b.c i love it, i dont care if its not consider comp, i just love it!).

You also really want a Soulscryer or 2, +3/+6 inch to the charge is very strong and outflanking (Coming from the edges of the table) with +3/+6 can be deadly to many armies.

[Acid_Nine]

So how are people feeling about the new bloodbound book? Any thoughts or experiences fighting them?

[Maddpainting]

Weaker in some ways, but stronger in other. It seems to be about the same power level, it just shifted some units. Summoning is weaker now for sure, cant summon more than 1 unit a turn.

[Amradiel]

Could this work at a 1k tournament? 🤔 I like ut on paper but have not tried it yet. Suggestions are more than welcome. 

[Luke1705]

I’ve been looking at James Tinsdale’s list recently, which placed pretty well at the most recent event he took it to. It is attached at the end of this post.

Three things I’m not sure I’m sold on (James if you’re reading this please convince me)

1) Namarti corps. Extra artifact great. Less drops love it. Basically only costs 50 points (although a tough sell with needing a fourth Namarti unit so maybe the real “cost” is closer to 190)

2) Soulrender over a second soulscryer. Is the regen on units that I presume are basically going to salute and die worth giving up eel deep strike flexibility (and potential +6 on charges if the stars align)?

3) Do we really need an extra command point? We get one first turn anyway and the eels can deep strike. Do eels evaporate so fast that we need 2 to stop battleshock before our second hero phase?

People who aren’t James feel free to wildly speculate or throw out educated opinions. I’m thinking about going more down the eel spam route  for my competitive list (I desperately love the model so it’s great)

I’m thinking: (Fuethan)

Tidecaster (General, born from agony)

2 x Soulscryer (1 with cloud)

2 x 9 morrsar

6 morrsarr

3 x 10 thralls (or maybe 2 thralls 1 reaver)

2k on the dot

Would love to know why this isn’t better than James’ list (I assume he’s playtested and it’s not)

[N_Watson]

5 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

I’ve been looking at James Tinsdale’s list recently, which placed pretty well at the most recent event he took it to. It is attached at the end of this post.

Three things I’m not sure I’m sold on (James if you’re reading this please convince me)

1) Namarti corps. Extra artifact great. Less drops love it. Basically only costs 50 points (although a tough sell with needing a fourth Namarti unit so maybe the real “cost” is closer to 190)

2) Soulrender over a second soulscryer. Is the regen on units that I presume are basically going to salute and die worth giving up eel deep strike flexibility (and potential +6 on charges if the stars align)?

3) Do we really need an extra command point? We get one first turn anyway and the eels can deep strike. Do eels evaporate so fast that we need 2 to stop battleshock before our second hero phase?

People who aren’t James feel free to wildly speculate or throw out educated opinions. I’m thinking about going more down the eel spam route  for my competitive list (I desperately love the model so it’s great)

I’m thinking: (Fuethan)

Tidecaster (General, born from agony)

2 x Soulscryer (1 with cloud)

2 x 9 morrsar

6 morrsarr

3 x 10 thralls (or maybe 2 thralls 1 reaver)

2k on the dot

Would love to know why this isn’t better than James’ list (I assume he’s playtested and it’s not)

Played this list a whole bunch. It's really good. Less drops is great in some matchups. 

Being able to decide first turn can give you a really big advantage in the mission. Having choice to go first in Better Part of valour for example. Choosing to go 2nd in relocation orb.

2nd artifact also makes the list better in places of arcane power and relocation orb where wizards or artifacts score/count as 20 models. 

There are a few downsides though. There is definitely a tax in taking 2 units of Reavers. 

Most of the armies we struggle with also have low drops and sometimes comes down to a roll off for priority. DoK can be 5 drops. FeC currently around 4/5 drops. SCE can build a low drop build as well. 

Nagash tends to be around 6/7 drops, though they also have 5 drop options. 

From talking to @Carrion King the idea for the low drop necessity came from a pack including better part of valour in it, where choice of going first in some matchups is huge. Generally, it might not be such a necessity for Deepkin to go first outside of that mission.

 

 

[Maddpainting]

I always used multiples Thralls and Reavers, tho i like Reavers much more than Thralls, i actually like Royal Council more b.c i dont used Soulrender at all, and the extra 3" movement helps Reavers/Thralls, funny i also use the Thermalrider Cloak, i use it on all my lists for the most part, even my BoC (I took BoC to Adpeticon, b.c i was board with deepkin, but after the event, im going back to Deepkin).

Im am thinking of Trying Namarti Corpse tho, also i like Fuethan so much. IDK if i can play without it lol.

[Luke1705]

Better part of valor is a dumb mission. Auto win on first turn for some armies.

The low drop is good but the list I posted can go as low as 5 drops. I’m not sure I see such great value in 4 drops vs 5, but I can appreciate that side of things

[N_Watson]

9 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

Better part of valor is a dumb mission. Auto win on first turn for some armies.

The low drop is good but the list I posted can go as low as 5 drops. I’m not sure I see such great value in 4 drops vs 5, but I can appreciate that side of things

For the record, been playing Deepkin at tournaments for 5 months now. 

Won Northern Masters with Tidecaster, scryer, scryer, incantor, 30 Thralls, 18 eels, 5 Heartrenders and comet. 

Went 4-1 with Tidecaster, scryer, scryer, Volty, Eidolon, 3x6 eels. 

Then recent 3-2 with James' list, though I had a few misplays and tough match ups rather than there being an issue with the list. 

Your success will largely depend on local meta and your ability to play to the win condition of your chosen list. 

[Luke1705]

1 hour ago, N_Watson said:

For the record, been playing Deepkin at tournaments for 5 months now. 

Won Northern Masters with Tidecaster, scryer, scryer, incantor, 30 Thralls, 18 eels, 5 Heartrenders and comet. 

Went 4-1 with Tidecaster, scryer, scryer, Volty, Eidolon, 3x6 eels. 

Then recent 3-2 with James' list, though I had a few misplays and tough match ups rather than there being an issue with the list. 

Your success will largely depend on local meta and your ability to play to the win condition of your chosen list. 

I really like the Volturnos list quite a bit. Did you find that turn 3 high tide was too late? Also what was the purpose of the tidecaster in that list?

[N_Watson]

5 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

I really like the Volturnos list quite a bit. Did you find that turn 3 high tide was too late? Also what was the purpose of the tidecaster in that list?

Yeah, turn 3 was too late. Really close game with Gavriel that was a win largely due to their misplay and loss to Nagash with no hope of really being able to threaten him. 

[Maddpainting]

Yeah, i would love to play more Kings and not take Tidecaster as General, but turn 2 tide is just to good i feel.

Im hoping GH2 will change a couple points and maybe be able to do a horde army of Reavers and Thralls (I mean make them more playable in large units not nerf Eels to death lol).

Tho i would rather play more sharks and turtles so i dont think i'll drop tidecaster general.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Maddpainting

[N_Watson]

Tidecaster still pretty useful. Decent hero/spell caster for 100 points. -1 to hit and steed of tides spells give great flexibility. 

[Maddpainting]

Yes but the Tidecaster is nothing compare the a General riding a sea unicorn!  😂

Edited April 3, 2019 by Maddpainting