AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Mirage8112]

13 hours ago, Landohammer said:

But lets be honest, nobody bothered fielding her at 600pts. She was costed the same as 45 wounds of Kurnoth Hunters, and now she is closer to 60 wounds worth. 

Sometimes I wonder if there is a certain type of player who just flat out refuses to spend 600 pts on a single unit just as a matter of principle. I only say that because the amount of discussion of “is she worth her points” only really comes down arguing over a 100 pt average difference. 

I say that because we’re really talking about a 540 pt model, not a 740 point one. @Landohammer has pointed this out already: 

13 hours ago, Landohammer said:

The core of the issue is that her cost is clearly inflated to include the free unit she summons: ~200pts... For example, lord Kroak will on average contribute 5-7 CPs to a game, but he isn't taxed 250pts for that. 

   
But the thing is: it’s not a tax. A tax is taking a unit you don’t really want to get a benefit you do want. The units Alarielle summons you would probably be taking anyway, the only difference being when the unit is deployed. Those 200 pts of summoned hunters would have been on your list anyway, so the additional cost is totally irrelevant.  

The next most expensive unit in our battletome is either Durthu or Drycha. I hear a lot of discussion about water or not Drycha is worth her points (my opinion is yes) but rarely do get the same discussion about Durthu. 

Alarielle’s damage outstrips Durthu’s easily over the course of a game, and Durthu’s damage output is far more fragile. Durthu needs support to consistently put damage out as the game progresses, so there is an added cost at keeping him effective, at the very least he requires an 80pt supporting spellcaster to keep his health topped up so he can consistently swing for the sweet sweet 6 damage. That means to get the best use from him, his cost of use is really more like 380. Which only really buys you the ability to cast and unbind 1 spell, and an extra 5 wounds (which will likely not come into play).

That means the actual cost to play Alarielle vs Durthu is only 160 pts. So what does that extra 160 pts buy you? 2d6 healing to herself every hero phase, D3 healing to everything within 30”, 2 extra spells, impact hits with retreat and charge (so you can user it every charge phase), a shooting attack that isn’t locked into whatever combat your fighting (thanks to retreat and shoot) plus an essentially suped-up impaling talon, fly, and a spell that is basically verdant blessing and arcane bolt all rolled into one. 

Now is that worth 160pts? I’d say so. If there was a 160pt hero that could do all that you’d be damn sure to take him in every list you wrote.

But if you don’t think so how much more than Durthu + a support caster should she cost? 150? 100? Should she literally cost the same as Durthu despite the fact that she puts out more damage, is more survivable, and basically gets a mini Verdurous Harmony bubble every turn for free?
 

10 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

[it’s] is not too hard to nova down in a single phase for a good hammer unit

That is true about literally every single unit in our battletome. It is also true for nearly every single unit in the game except Morathi. Enough weight of fire will remove anything from the board in one turn. Even with a wound/mortal wound shrug.  

 

13 hours ago, Landohammer said:

However that kind of tax is not uniformly applied across the rest of the factions. For example, lord Kroak will on average contribute 5-7 CPs to a game, but he isn't taxed 250pts for that. 

This is why I think the real problem is, Sylvaneth don’t play like any other faction in the game. We don’t go toe to toe in casting, close combat, shooting or summoning with any other army and win. We can’t out-shoot KO and we cant out magic Tzneetch. Comparisons like “she won’t survive close combat with Morathi because she has no mortal shrug” is poor comparison, because we really shouldn’t be fighting Morathi with her, and sure as F not one-on-one.

But when you think about it, no unit in out codex can really go toe to toe with the equivalent from every other codex. That why we dont fight one on one. We fight 3 on 1. Because we can move units around the board better than any other faction and after destroying one unit we can teleport across the board and do it again.

Alarielle will be awesome at guerilla warfare. Charge into a gap between a unit of hunters and a treelord  (which limits the enemy’s ability to pile in and direct a full units worth of attacks at her). Treelord stomps, and you pour all your damage into the unit. If the unit doesnt break, Alarielle retreats over the unit next turn, charges again for double impact hits and prevents the enemy from retreating. Rinse repeat up the line. 16” and fly plus a 7” charge is no joke. 

As to CP generation, I have a feeling that is being addressed by 3.0. We pretty much know for a fact that mechanic is changing.  Alarielle and the Warsong Revenants warscrolls were written with 3.0 in mind, so it here isn’t really any point in putting that as a plus or minus in anybody’s column because Kragnos is like getting a taste of 3.0 before the edition drops.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Landohammer]

@Mirage8112

 

So another caveat of being "worth her points" is the liability of tying up 740pts in only 16 wounds. Most dedicated combat units (and many shooting armies) can dish out enough attacks to reliably kill her in a single phase. 

Make no mistake. Alarielle is bad. Like really bad. My suggestions about tactics for fielding Alarielle are "devils advocate" arguments, and are me trying to find a way to field her. She will never be competitive or good in the game as it currently exists. 

[Walkirriox]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

@Mirage8112

 

So another caveat of being "worth her points" is the liability of tying up 740pts in only 16 wounds. Most dedicated combat units (and many shooting armies) can dish out enough attacks to reliably kill her in a single phase. 

Make no mistake. Alarielle is bad. Like really bad. My suggestions about tactics for fielding Alarielle are "devils advocate" arguments, and are me trying to find a way to field her. She will never be competitive or good in the game as it currently exists. 

Yup, what Mirage shares is the optimal way to play her, and theoretically it would work. But in practice she will remain sitting on our shelves/boxes unless you play casual/narrative games, I think there are much better lists without her for tournament games. The thing is that is difficult to justify her on a list, and you have to make a list for her.
Although, must say, that we don’t know how the rules will change and the above mentioned is only true as the current state of the game. I hope that future rules promote the use of big center pieces such as Alarielle.

[Pennydude]

15 minutes ago, Walkirriox said:

Although, must say, that we don’t know how the rules will change and the above mentioned is only true as the current state of the game. I hope that future rules promote the use of big center pieces such as Alarielle.

Don't write her off until we know the new rules set.  GW has mentioned new abilities for heroes and monsters, of which Alarielle is both, and being a second general will play into the new rules too.  

[Landohammer]

28 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

Don't write her off until we know the new rules set.  GW has mentioned new abilities for heroes and monsters, of which Alarielle is both, and being a second general will play into the new rules too.  

I am gonna go out on a limb and generously guestimate that Thunderstomp will be d6 mortals in the charge phase to models with 1-2 wounds (infantry). Second General is just to extend basic command ability ranges. (Though in 40k named characters get command traits so that would be cool if we got that. Could be huge)

That still doesn't justify her cost. Not even close.

Her ONLY saving grace would be if there is a universal points increase by 15-20% like 40k saw. That would at least bring the rest of the game into the same solar system as her cost. And even then she wouldn't even be C tier material, she would just no longer be competitively toxic. 

With that being said, I have a soft spot for underdogs (I play Sylvaneth and NH after all) and I definitely plan on building a list around her once 3rd hits. It probably involves spamming spites or dryads just to try and get bodies on the board, and I don't expect to win: But if she can punch teclis or archaon in the face a few times it would be worth it. 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Landohammer

[Pennydude]

Okay seriously, we have to wait until the new rules come out.  

Stop bashing Alarielle until we get the full story on how all units will be affected by the incoming points update.

I'm actually really happy with the Alarielle changes but since we know points are going up across the board, I'm waiting to see what our army composition would be.  

Since most people seem to not get this, I'm done posting until 3.0 releases.

[Arzalyn]

So we got some info on the Monsters and Heroic actions (pictures bellow).

Heroic actions seens to happen at each hero phase, so we can get some healing on the opponent turn for our treelords/drycha/Alarielle. The heroic leadership seen nice for our heroes, the ancient, arch revenant and Alarielle have good command abilities.

The monster rampage Smash to Rumble in particular looks like bad news for us... Luckily the wood teleport ability isn't art of their warscroll!

Edited June 3, 2021 by Arzalyn

[Grimmlock619]

1 hour ago, Arzalyn said:

So we got some info on the Monsters and Heroic actions (pictures bellow).

Heroic actions seens to happen at each hero phase, so we can get some healing on the opponent turn for our treelords/drycha/Alarielle. The heroic leadership seen nice for our heroes, the ancient, arch revenant and Alarielle have good command abilities.

The monster rampage Smash to Rumble in particular looks like bad news for us... Luckily the wood teleport ability isn't art of their warscroll!

Exactly. I think these are going to help so much. Afraid Alarielle or another key pieces is about to get shot off the board turn 1 before you go? Make her or Durthu a 2+ to save? Get some extra heals in your phase. These are pretty awesome for us. Also.. that sweet sweet extra CP. 

[Walkirriox]

1 hour ago, Arzalyn said:

So we got some info on the Monsters and Heroic actions (pictures bellow).

Heroic actions seens to happen at each hero phase, so we can get some healing on the opponent turn for our treelords/drycha/Alarielle. The heroic leadership seen nice for our heroes, the ancient, arch revenant and Alarielle have good command abilities.

The monster rampage Smash to Rumble in particular looks like bad news for us... Luckily the wood teleport ability isn't art of their warscroll!

I have feelings going both ways. Our big guys will benefit from all this changes, but our woods will lose LOS and the MW damage if they are destroyed. A positive thing is that our woods could be kind of a "Rubble bait" for monsters as our enemies will prioritize Smash to Rubble over the other rampage actions (I guess).

I think all monsters and heroes will go up in points, so maybe the point cost for Alarielle and Warsong Revenant is justified.

[Kaylethia]

On the other hand, even if they do get demolished, this wording leaves the keywords intact. Our woods will still buff dryads, Durthu and mr. Doot, and still allow for teleports. When defensible and demolished get clarified, we'll see if they still provide cover as well.

This was a thing in first edition with generic Destruction allegiance, where they could turn off scenery rules.

[Mirage8112]

9 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So another caveat of being "worth her points" is the liability of tying up 740pts in only 16 wounds.

540 points. Because unless you’re a total dummy you’ll bring out her summoning before sticking her in combat. 

Also not really sure how you tie something up in combat that can retreat and charge. The only reason Alarielle should be in combat is if your want her to be there. 
 

9 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Most dedicated combat units (and many shooting armies) can dish out enough attacks to reliably kill her in a single phase. 

Speculation. As I said it takes 50 sentinel shots at 18” to kill her in one phase. If she’s within 18” of 50 sentinels it’s not the warscroll’s fault she died: it’s yours. 
 

Incidently, 50 sentinels at 18” will kill just about everything in the game in a single phase (except Morathi). Things that they won’t kill outright (Nagash/Kragnos) will be so badly crippled they might as well be dead. 

But again, if you’re within 18” of 50 sentinels with any high-cost unit: you’re doing it wrong.  
 

9 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Make no mistake. Alarielle is bad. Like really bad… She will never be competitive or good in the game as it currently exists. 

 

6 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Her ONLY saving grace would be if there is a universal points increase by 15-20% … and even then she wouldn't even be C tier material, she would just no longer be competitively toxic. 

It’s comments like this that I don’t understand. 

If we had a number of viable builds doing well at tournaments I would say you had a point. There would be no reason to consider taking Alarielle, especially if it breaks apart the synergy of something that’s already proven to work.

If we were crushing tournaments with hunter spam, or winning consistently with Deepkin allies, or even placing top 10 at major tournaments with Durthu/free spirits battalions I might be inclined to listen to you. 

But we aren’t winning tournaments. None of that is happening. 

So. Until you can show me a proven tournament winning list, stop telling me how something which hasn’t even been officially released yet, has no chance at being even remotely competitive.

 

If you think I’m way off base then show me what you think our most competitive list is and then tell me how tournaments it has won. Hell not even that; tell me how many top 10 finishes it’s had, and tell me why at list with Alarielle would be worse.

Otherwise stop pretending her warscroll is so much worse than anything else in the game, and just resolve to play something else. Let the rest of us who are actually interested in making her unique toolkit work come up with play solutions to the current challenges in the meta without you telling how bad things are based on absolutely no experience, or on fictional worst case scenarios that are easily avoided by anybody remotely familiar with our playstyle and an ounce of generalship.

I mean ffs. Nothing says “warhammer” like saying something is the worst thing in history without actually having played it. 

[Pennydude]

10 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

If you think I’m way off base then show me what you think our most competitive list is and then tell me how tournaments it has won. Hell not even that; tell me how many top 10 finishes it’s had, and tell me why at list with Alarielle would be worse.

Otherwise stop pretending her warscroll is so much worse than anything else in the game, and just resolve to play something else. Let the rest of us who are actually interested in making her unique toolkit work come up with play solutions to the current challenges in the meta without you telling how bad things are based on absolutely no experience, or on fictional worst case scenarios that are easily avoided by anybody remotely familiar with our playstyle and an ounce of generalship.

 

I'll break my vow to no-post.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!  CAN WE BE FRIENDS?

[Landohammer]

@Mirage8112 you are coming off as a bit aggressive mate. Lets all take a minute to cool down. 

Maybe we should just agree to disagree eh?

I am playing 7 warhammer games this week ( a practice game tonight and 2 two one day tourneys this weekend) and while I am far from a pro player, the meta I currently play in would have NO trouble vs an Alarielle list.  But maybe your meta and experience is different? 

To cherry pick a few pieces of your post, I did want to point out that it would not take 50 sentinels to kill Alarielle. Most LRL players in my experience use lambent light on expensive characters, and that can end up putting out about 4-5 mortals per unit + normal damage. I have personally lost Alarielle on turn 1 MULTIPLE times. Once vs Deepkin, once vs FEC, twice vs Slaanesh, and once vs Orruks. She dies in completive games. I have picked up the model myself enough times to know! 

The rest of your posts seems to be asking us to provide lists that win without Alarielle, but I don't understand your point because Sylvaneth is not winning events at all regardless of whether she is in the list or not. So I'm confused at your point there. 

I will happily eat my words if new Alarielle comes in and saves the entire faction in 3rd but its not going to happen. Not in a game that is won by objectives.

[El Antiguo Guardián]

The new rules are more reasons for taking Spirits of Durthu😄

[Popisdead]

8 hours ago, Pennydude said:

Don't write her off until we know the new rules set.  GW has mentioned new abilities for heroes and monsters, of which Alarielle is both, and being a second general will play into the new rules too.  

She'll have the ability to smack into a monster now and hit and wound on better values.  As we get closer more details will come to light.  I am hopeful but in the end of the day, the tournament scene defines what's good.  

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

540 points. Because unless you’re a total dummy you’ll bring out her summoning before sticking her in combat. 

It isn't.  Not every summoning mechanic works this way across the board in the game.  The choices aren't strictly worth 200 points, and it isn't like you are seeing people adding 20 Dryads anyways these days. I don't believe every character is pointed with their summoning in.  I have vaguely recall a good episode of the Honest Wargamer with the Gaunt Summoner and blue horrors as cases but this is just my foggy memory.  I don't have points and values at hand.  I would trade a 740 point Alarielle with summoning for a 540 point one that doesn't have those summoning options.  

28 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

@Mirage8112 you are coming off as a bit aggressive mate. Lets all take a minute to cool down. 

I agree with this.  It's good to have another point of view but it doesn't need to be so vehement or slanderous.  

These days especially, Landohammer more often than others (maybe Pennydude is up there) brings a lot of valued game play experience to the table over arm chair arguments.  I like both points of view but let's not scare people away trying to control how you see something in a game in a forum.

[Landohammer]

48 minutes ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

The new rules are more reasons for taking Spirits of Durthu😄

Exactly! Durthu could be on 2+/2+ vs a monster and a 2+ save. 

 I am also kind of excited for vanilla treelords. Getting a +1 to vs hit something like a bloodthirster or terrorgeist could really make them punch above their weight. And the stomps could be nice for doing some solid damage, even if they are bracketed. 

[Havelocke]

27 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Exactly! Durthu could be on 2+/2+ vs a monster and a 2+ save.

How do we feel about Drycha with these new rules? A lot of her damage typically comes from mortals, but +1/+1 on 20 attacks with +0/+1 on ten more is a lot of extra power...

[Freejack02]

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

That is true about literally every single unit in our battletome. It is also true for nearly every single unit in the game except Morathi. Enough weight of fire will remove anything from the board in one turn. Even with a wound/mortal wound shrug.  

Really useless statement there - obviously everything can be focus fired down with enough weight on it... my point is that a 740 point goddess is a little TOO susceptible to being taken out without the chance to heal back up (which is her real, albeit it poor, defensive tool). 

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

5 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

How do we feel about Drycha with these new rules? A lot of her damage typically comes from mortals, but +1/+1 on 20 attacks with +0/+1 on ten more is a lot of extra power...

I'm flippin' excited, is how I'm feeling.

[Freejack02]

I'm wary of Smash to Rubble for obvious reasons, but I think Heroic Recovery could be a negative for us as well. We have plenty of healing when we need it through Regrowth and Emerald Lifeswarm, or Alarielle's ability if we run her, but now everyone can heal - which makes it that much harder to get our damage to stick. It's not going to be a drastic change, but I think it probably benefits a lot of other factions more than Sylvaneth. 

[Pennydude]

sticks head out of the trees

Just a reminder that the new monster ability to destroy terrain only affects the line of sight blocking and charge phase damage for our woods.  The keywords don't go away so we can still teleport to them (allegiance ability) and gain benefits by being near them (Derpthu, Dryads, Warsong).  The only time terrain is destroyed AND we can't use them for anything is from the Gatebreaker MG and Mancrushers in the Breaker Tribe. 

retreats back into the trees

[Havelocke]

Put together some quick math-hammer on how the combination of Their Finest Hour and Titanic Duel would affect Drycha's average damage output. (The above assumes she's being run in Gnarlroot, since that's where she gets her best damage, and I like big numbers.)

It's worth noting that Titanic Duel assumes she's fighting another Monster, so the big increases you see for 5+ and 6+ saves probably won't be relevant very often. Also, just for fun, the math gives Empowered Shooting Drycha about a 7% chance of taking down Kragnos in one round, assuming no additional defensive bonuses.

 

[Havelocke]

19 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

It's not going to be a drastic change, but I think it probably benefits a lot of other factions more than Sylvaneth. 

You're not wrong. I think all of the choices on the table are going to affect different factions asymmetrically, though.

For example, models with 2+ to hit or wound will be less able to take advantage of Their Finest Hour and Titanic Duel. Factions that already had terrain destruction will have less use for Smash to Rubble. Wizard-less factions are going to love Heroic Willpower more. And so on.

[Mirage8112]

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

you are coming off as a bit aggressive mate. Lets all take a minute to cool down. 

Aggressive? Not at all. Frustrated? Absolutely. I’ll tell you why:

 

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I am playing 7 warhammer games this week ( a practice game tonight and 2 two one day tourneys this weekend) and while I am far from a pro player, the meta I currently play in would have NO trouble vs an Alarielle list.  But maybe your meta and experience is different? 

 

It is. 

Generally, I do very well with my Sylvaneth in both competitive games and friendly games. So much so that I don’t really feel the faction is nearly as bad as people say it is. The reason I say that is every single game I’ve lost has been due to a tactical error on my part, or 1-2 rolls that just didn’t pan out (I.e. failing a 3” charge).

Now that’s not the army’s design problem or a points problem, that’s either a tactical error: misplacing a screen, failing to account for a unit ability, or doing something in the wrong order; or dice (it happens). Every time it’s happened, I’ve adjusted my play and never made the same error again.

If it’s just dice, a put all my dice in a circle and put one dice in the middle and then hit it with a hammer as a warning to the others. 😉

Most of my lists include units that are widely regarded to be too expensive, inefficient and yet I smash just about everything I come up against. Why? Because the game is about more than whether a unit is perceived to be overcosted by 40-50 pts and more about how they fit in the broader structure of the army. Use the tool in the way is designed to be used, it works great. Use it wrong and and you’ll probably have a low opinion of it.  There’s nothing more frustrating than hearing somebody holding a screwdriver and complaining, loudly, that their hammer is the worst hammer anyone has ever made. 

A lot of units by themselves don’t work really well. Paired with 2-3 of the right units they’re absolutely devastating.  

 

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

To cherry pick a few pieces of your post, I did want to point out that it would not take 50 sentinels to kill Alarielle. Most LRL players in my experience use lambent light on expensive characters, and that can end up putting out about 4-5 mortals per unit + normal damage. I have personally lost Alarielle on turn 1 MULTIPLE times. Once vs Deepkin, once vs FEC, twice vs Slaanesh, and once vs Orruks. She dies in completive games. I have picked up the model myself enough times to know! 

So, in the case of the Lumineth do you know what you did wrong? Like, maybe, having Alarielle within 18” of a casting unit at the start of the hero phase? how about the other games? Did you properly screen her? Did you overcommit? Did you have proper support?

Or did you play everything absolutely perfectly and there was nothing you can do? 

 

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

The rest of your posts seems to be asking us to provide lists that win without Alarielle, but I don't understand your point because Sylvaneth is not winning events at all regardless of whether she is in the list or not. So I'm confused at your point there. 

Your whole line of logic boils down to the same thing: Alarielle is not worth her points. She is not worth bringing to competitive games because she’s “too expensive”. That implies that their are models in our battletome that are pointed properly and are worth bringing to competitive games.

My point is, that if that is true and the other models are a better investment, why aren’t we winning tournaments with them? You’re right that almost nobody brings Alarielle to tournaments, but if the models they do bring are pointed so much more efficiently, why isn’t it working? 

At the end of the day a loss is a loss and a win is a win. The proof is in the pudding. It makes no sense to encourage players to continue doing something that clearly isn’t working when there are new options. 
 

6 hours ago, Popisdead said:

>>540 points. Because unless you’re a total dummy you’ll bring out her summoning before sticking her in combat. 

It isn't.  Not every summoning mechanic works this way across the board in the game.  The choices aren't strictly worth 200 points, and it isn't like you are seeing people adding 20 Dryads anyways these days. I don't believe every character is pointed with their summoning in.  I have vaguely recall a good episode of the Honest Wargamer with the Gaunt Summoner and blue horrors as cases but this is just my foggy memory.  I don't have points and values at hand.  I would trade a 740 point Alarielle with summoning for a 540 point one that doesn't have those summoning options.

 

I’d say your half right. 

Firstly I’d say that because your right that not every summoning mechanic works like that during the game. Not every armys summoning mechanic is the same: the currency for summoning for Tzneetch is different than Slaanesh than Khorne. Those armies have a very different play style than us, and bring new units onto the table in different ways. There summoning points are baked into the army, not specific units. 

Secondly I’d say your wrong, because this is how Alarielle’s summoning works. Taking 540 points for Alarielle without summoning doesn’t really change the list make-up of what you’ll be likely to field. whether those Hunters hit the field at deployment or at mid game doesn’t change the fact that 200 pts of hunters hit the field either way. 

You’ve also (probably inadvertently) highlighted a good point why Alarielles summoning is useful and how it is underused. Almost nobody brings anything other than hunters onto the table. Being able to bring 10 t-revs and teleport across the board to steal a back line objective, or bring a hero to capture an objective for an extra victory point, or bring in an extra treelord for the new monster bonus or stomp is a tremendous advantage that almost nobody uses. 
 

5 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Really useless statement there - obviously everything can be focus fired down with enough weight on it... my point is that a 740 point goddess is a little TOO susceptible to being taken out without the chance to heal back up (which is her real, albeit it poor, defensive tool). 

I agree that it useless, which was my point. Pointing out Alarielle can be focus fired is a useless observation. Everything can be focus fired if its placed in a vulnerable position.

So don’t do that and you should be good... right? 

Unless your point is that Alarielle is vulnerable no matter where she is on the board. Or that she will get auto-destroyed turn 1 by every army and there is nothing you can ever do.

Is that what your saying? 

 

12 hours ago, Grimmlock619 said:

Exactly. I think these are going to help so much.

Nobody seems to be talking about Roar. The ability to shut down command abilities on a 3+?  Goodbye battleshock immunity. That will have great synergy with the new Warsong-Rev and opens up Drycha/spite leadership bomb. 10 spites and Drycha, throwing out a bunch of wounds within a -3 to leadership and no battleshock immunity is going to be brutal against unit sizes over 20. Even at Ld 10.  

 

 


 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Havelocke]

4 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Nobody seems to be talking about Roar. The ability to shut down command abilities on a 3+?  Goodbye battleshock immunity. That will have great synergy with the new Warsong-Rev and opens up Drycha/spite leadership bomb.

Man, I wish. Roar only lasts for the combat phase, though. I'm still hoping they remove Inspiring Presence, or put some restrictions on it.