AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[cranect]

What is it that makes enlightened so good? I use bullgors a lot and that extra rend always helps. With the new book and taking them with the khorne mark they can do a lot more than before but everytime I come on here I just see people saying the enlightened are just better. I dont know what can buff up the enlightened though so that is probably what I am missing. 

[Pandamina]

34 minutes ago, cranect said:

What is it that makes enlightened so good? I use bullgors a lot and that extra rend always helps. With the new book and taking them with the khorne mark they can do a lot more than before but everytime I come on here I just see people saying the enlightened are just better. I dont know what can buff up the enlightened though so that is probably what I am missing. 

Fly, 16" move, 20 pts less than Bullgors, more damage avg, 2" attacks, rerolls. They don't need battalion or support to be playable.

[cranect]

Do they do more against tougher targets as well? I could see the more lightly armored units but against the tougher ones I would think the bulls would have an advantage due to the rend and getting a few mortal wounds in as well. 

[Skreech Verminking]

Just now, cranect said:

Do they do more against tougher targets as well? I could see the more lightly armored units but against the tougher ones I would think the bulls would have an advantage due to the rend and getting a few mortal wounds in as well. 

Well enlightenments will do a massive amount of damage as long as the unit they’ll be facing has a 4 or less save.

anything better and well bullgors might do the trick.

 

[LordRogalDorn]

Ok, let's break it down. I'm using a 4+ save for all of this analysis, and the wound calculator at druchii.net. 

6 Skin wolves will do ~23.78 +/- 7.46 dmg. (I had to do this calculation by hand, and the standard deviation maybe a little off. I am however,  working to add do a thing on an x to hit/ wound to my own version of this program.)

6 unbuffed enlightened with no rerolls are doing 14.28 +/- 4.95 dmg.

With a shaman nearby those 6 enlightened are now doing 17.09 +/- 5.21 dmg.

If you are able to get your rerolls using some clever screening tricks and taking unit corners those 6 enlightened are now doing 28.81 +/- 6.19 dmg.

If those 6 enlightened are getting rerolls and have a shaman nearby, they are now doing 31.93 +/- 6.21 dmg.

 

So the real advantages the enlightened bring over the skin wolves is that you can play them with beasts of chaos, they are much faster, and will do more dmg when fully buffed.

 

Adding bullgors to the mix.

6 bullgors using great weapons will do 14.5 +/- 5.16 dmg.

6 bullgors using great weapons and reroll 1s to hit they are now doing 16.92 +/- 5.4 dmg.

6 bullgors using great weapons and reroll 1s to hit and all wound rolls they are now doing 22 +/- 5.73 dmg. 

6 bullgors with 2 axes will do 19.97 +/- 6.09 dmg. 

6 bullgors with 2 axes and rerolling 1s will do 20.22 +/- 6.11 dmg.

6 bullgors with 2 axes reroll 1s to hit and all wounds will now do 26.02 +/- 6.61 dmg.

So probably because of the mortal wounds and the extra attacks the 2 axes edge out the great weapons against a 4+ save. And the advantage of enlightened here is that they can keep the high damage going more than 1/ game. 

[Maddpainting]

Well, so far it looks like i have zero, -2 rend.

Would it be better to add Bullgors for that -2 rend or just Tzaangor Enlightened?

I've found its good to have at least 1 unit with -2 rend, tho i dont think its important if you have the weight of attacks, its just a nice option. Or am i wrong in thinking that?

[cranect]

Thanks so the damage output is pretty even until fully buffed up. The enlightened really just have movement and cost then.

[cranect]

26 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Well, so far it looks like i have zero, -2 rend.

Would it be better to add Bullgors for that -2 rend or just Tzaangor Enlightened?

I've found its good to have at least 1 unit with -2 rend, tho i dont think its important if you have the weight of attacks, its just a nice option. Or am i wrong in thinking that?

With just 1 unit enlightened are probably the better choice.

[Pandamina]

2 hours ago, cranect said:

Thanks so the damage output is pretty even until fully buffed up. The enlightened really just have movement and cost then.

Damage output is pretty different. Vs almost all units (4+ or worse), not to mention nighthaunts and ethereal amulet, Enlightened are much better. Being charged Enlightened are awesome, even one champion can kill something big, and being charged while behind screen is potentially game winning. They also have smaller footprint and 2" weapon, while bullgors have bigger footprint and 1" weapons, so they can't be taken in 9 for example, even 6 might be a problem, while Enlightened with their fly ability can charge easier and deliver all attacks. Movement is pretty significant part here, it's not "just" movement. And Skin Wolves are not legal for BoC in matched play, as was already mentioned.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Pandamina

[Myrdin]

Skin wolves are Warriors of Chaos units. Since WoC no longer exist they are not legal per say, however WoC IS SoD pretty much 1to1 ratio, just like BoC is Beastmen.. Technically you can do this in Open Play I think. In Matched play, only if your opponent agrees.

As long as you go by that logic, and your opponent is fine, there are no issues. Its the same army, just does not have the proper keyword due to the horrible state the old armies are... thanks for not doing anything GW, but I digress. The point is, they are Chaos, they are Monsters of Chaos, and they are listed as WoC, so unless your opponent is super ultra rules strict type, and is fine with that it should be fine. Granted you will not bring them to tournaments legally (for now, lets see if the Monster Lexicanum FW book gets an update). 

Thankfully our local group is quite open to these sort of things, as we all are mostly veterans, who remember and played the original armies back in the day, and people just want to have fun with their list building. Again, you cant bring them to a Tournament or if your opponent disagrees. Just keep that in mind.

As for the damage calculation - Did you factor in the fact that Skin wolves produce additional hit if they roll a 6 on to Hit ?

Because no Enlightened are not better on 1 to 1 bases. 6 Enlightened on Discs, do not perform to the same degree 6 Skin Wolves do.

EoDisc already perform very well, so that only shows that SW are very strong.

Now if we talk price difference, EoD did get the upper hand if they had the perfect situation > having a shaman, plus rerolls and what not. For that price difference you can add 3 more wolves to the unit and that will skew the numbers in their way again. 

So the real advantage is ONLY the speed and the BoC factor. You can argue damage, but that calculation was incomplete to begin with as you added ALL the bonuses to Enlightened which resulted in two units with vastly different price tags, ignored the 6s for Skin wolves. If you want to make an honest comparison with actual objective results, you cannot do that,.

Or ok, do that, but in that case add 3 more skin wolves to compensate for the +200pts Shaman and dont forget the 6s to Hit. Thats the best way to be objective. Do that and you `ll notice the Skin Wolves are coming on top in the damage department. Actually I`d be interested to see the numbers for the Skin Wolves with these things factored in, in case you want to run it through the formula you used.

 

As for the Bullgors... yeah those guys piciked the short end of the stick.

+1 Attack on both weapon profiles (not the horns though) would do wonder to make them relevant (lets  be honest 3+ to hit is what they need, but its the BoC theme to hit on 4+ so that aint happening), and 2" on the great weapons should have been a no brainer so that you can screen.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Myrdin

[Pandamina]

I would be glad to discuss Skin Wolves, but they are not legal by any means, so it might cause some misunderstandings. Also initial comparison here is Enlightened vs Bullgors

[cranect]

Above before buffs their damage output is pretty similar. You are correct that movement is significant.  2" weapons are nice as well. Also for the price of the shaman and the enlightened you could add a doombull to wound on 2s. Then their damage without any rerolls is 17.04 +- 5.28 which is just about the same as the enlightened. Anymore past that and it depends on what you need and the rest of your army. If you need it against hordes enlightened win but against harder targets the bulls will win.

[Pandamina]

I am really glad, that you are having success with Bullgors. But for me (and for some people in this thread as i can see) Enlightened are obvious winners.

[LordRogalDorn]

Myrdin, I did include 2 hits on a 6 for skin wolves (which is why I had to do it by hand btw), and I did the calculations for enlightened on discs.

[Heroflegend21]

BoC has been out for a good while now what are your guy's opinion on greatfrays? Which one is an auto take? And if so what units do you play with that greatfray? For me I  play darkwalkers with a Tzaangor bomb mixed with Warherd ambushing squad for 2k points even and have had great success!

[The_Yellow_Sign]

10 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well enlightenments will do a massive amount of damage as long as the unit they’ll be facing has a 4 or less save.

anything better and well bullgors might do the trick.

 

Enlightened always do more damage than Bullgors when using the clip-charge trick behind a screen.  

[Maddpainting]

Re-read the Herdstone, so yeah i like Tzaangor Enlightened much better now compare to Bullgors.

I think i'll have to get a unit of 3 or 6

[Maddpainting]

PS, Is a summoning mass army viable? +d3 CP's, 4+ to gain a CP, each turn you can use 1 CP for 1 Primordial Call?

With the Idea to summon 100% of the time every turn, hoping with Herdstone 1, 1D3, 1 CP, 3 at lowest, 5 at highest, to be able to summon at times good units or multi-units.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Maddpainting
Fix question

[Sauriv]

2 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

PS, Is a summoning mass army viable? +d3 CP's, 4+ to gain a CP, each turn you can use 1 CP for 1 Primordial Call?

With the Idea to summon 100% of the time every turn, hoping with Herdstone 1, 1D3, 1 CP, 3 at lowest, 5 at highest, to be able to summon at times good units or multi-units.

Sorry but it doesn't work, to convert cp to primordial call point you need allherd and then you most take specific trait and artifact. Ancient beyond knowing is a trait so, no. With a battalion you can pick the knowing eye as your second artifact though. 

[Magnus The Blue]

Anyone else notice the stealth buff to Centigors?  Base size moved down from 75mm to 60mm ovals.  Makes it much easier to attack in two ranks and helps getting more in each rank.  Makes 10 beast units more of a tempting proposition: easily throwing out 20 spear attacks for a nasty charge.

[Maddpainting]

Oh... that reminds me, i need to rebase mine


 

[Satyrical Sophist]

Turns out the converted ones I made are now on the right base size, hadn't realised I got it wrong at first.

[SwampHeart]

18 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Because no Enlightened are not better on 1 to 1 bases. 6 Enlightened on Discs, do not perform to the same degree 6 Skin Wolves do.

This is irrelevant because at current we cannot take Skin Wolves in BoC. You can in open or narrative play for certain but in matched play it is illegal, especially at tournaments. So even looking at their damage output from the frame of reference of BoC is meaningless. They work in mixed Chaos and are a good unit but they aren't a legal selection for BoC so it doesn't matter if they out damage everything the book - you can't use them in matched play. 

As to the debate of Enlightened vs. Bullgors - Enlightened are faster (and can take advantage of the movement buff of a shaman to be a base 19"), have a better range, and with a little practice the screen charge is basically fool proof. Bullgors are an OK unit that's fun to use - they're not anywhere near as potent as Enlightened from either a damage or flexibility point of view. 

[Maddpainting]

1 hour ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Turns out the converted ones I made are now on the right base size, hadn't realised I got it wrong at first.

You have a pic?

[The_Yellow_Sign]

7 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Anyone else notice the stealth buff to Centigors?  Base size moved down from 75mm to 60mm ovals.  Makes it much easier to attack in two ranks and helps getting more in each rank.  Makes 10 beast units more of a tempting proposition: easily throwing out 20 spear attacks for a nasty charge.

Centigors have been on 60mm ovals for a while.