AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[EnixLHQ]

22 minutes ago, Pyrk said:

I've found your beginner's guide pretty helpful - have you considered adding an allies section?

Thanks!

No, not really. I'm open to suggestions, but I've always been a pure ghost player. I included the Vampire Lord because it was highly requested, though I'll have to drop him from the guide now. Our ally list has severely dwindled since Soulblight's release, so we'll have to wait to see if that opens back up later.

[Bayul]

4 hours ago, JustAsPlanned said:

So with 3e coming soon, it’ll mean that we’re getting a new (hopefully better written) Battletome, and with that a new subfaction or two.  What would y’all hope to see in them? We already have the Emerald Host (Olynder’s army, very Banshee and Hexwraith focused) and Reikenor’s Condemned (buffed up Glaivewraiths and Chainrasps), so there’s still a fair amount of design space to work with without treading on too many toes.

– Across-the-board Ethereal, Flying and high Bravery should stay as signature traits.
– NH units should exploit and benefit from low enemy Bravery across all phases.
– Glaivewraith Stalkers should become relevant again for example as Monster hunters with -2 Rend (like Savage Big Stabbas)
– Demote Dreadblade Harrows to a unit. Nighthaunt have enough heros already and the dual box is weird. Give them an ability to transport themselves and an additonal unit to each other. You'll have an actual reason to run two Dreadblade Harrows this way.
– No more stupid Black Coach levels.
– I want to say Gravesite, but they already got nerfed for Soulblight Gravelords.
– New Hexwraith models.

[EnixLHQ]

2 minutes ago, Bayul said:

– No more stupid Black Coach levels.

Careful. No levels will likely mean lower overall buffs the thing gives out. I'd hate to lose Nimbus or they make the Cairn Wraith that drives it mean nothing weapons-wise. I'd settle for level 1 as the minimum. Or the level rolls are enhanced by how many other heroes you have on the board when you roll.

6 minutes ago, Bayul said:

– I want to say Gravesite, but they already got nerfed for Soulblight Gravelords.

I was going to argue this, but you're right.

• Only Soulblight Gravelord Summonable units can be set in the grave --instead of any Summonable
• Up to half of your army can be set in reserve --instead of "as many as you wish"
• Can set up any of your reserves on the field within standard zone in rules --used to require a hero within 9" of the grave and could only set up 9" from the grave
• Can store units there until the start of the 4th battle round --used to be entire game
• Endless Legions is free, requires no heroes to use, is automatic, and brings back half units within normal zone in rules --used to require a general and a command point, but brought back full units and only within 9"
• Graves offer no further benefits, --used to offer Invigorating Aura which is now a spell all allegiant wizards know (with special rules)

All this, combined with Deathly Invocation moving to a battle trait, is a clear signal that GW intends for the power of an army to come from their allegiance and not the units you could ally in. Can't store Spirit Hosts or Reapers in graves anymore. Can't heal them up, either.

It's the same philosophy as killing all the extra artefacts was. They want armies to do their thing, not an OP artefact or ally choice.

But that being said, if they did the same treatment to LoG gravesites and made them a standard Nighthaunt (or whatever the combined faction is called) inclusion, I wouldn't say no to it. It's still a lot of healing that we just don't have right now. Even graves bringing back half units is still more than LoG could bring back post Aetherquartz, unless you saved all your points just for that. Free half units is still better than choosing to not use a KoS buff.

Oh no...now I'm wondering what abilities of ours are going to be moved off of warscrolls and moved into allegiance traits. Frightful Touch? Yes, do that, if it means more units can benefit from it. Ethereal? Sure. Kurdoss' CP steal? Why not? Capture Soul Energy? PLEASE give that to all heroes! 

[Bayul]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Careful. No levels will likely mean lower overall buffs the thing gives out. I'd hate to lose Nimbus or they make the Cairn Wraith that drives it mean nothing weapons-wise. I'd settle for level 1 as the minimum. Or the level rolls are enhanced by how many other heroes you have on the board when you roll.

Correct, give me lower overall buffs and slim down this warscroll.

To be honest, I don't need buffs from a coach. Carriages aren't part of an army. Its passengers and their destination should be relevant somehow. Let it deep strike and disembark units for example.

Levels aren't even that thematic. Why does an undead coach absorb death magic to level up? Acceleration? Charge with it and deal a number of mortal wounds on impact based on the charge roll, like my Ogors do. Much simpler.

I would mind levels on gravesites though.

[EnixLHQ]

I could see that. Make it a hero, give it the Dreadblade's teleport, and allow it to take a friendly unit along for the ride. Toss in Nimbus, retreat and charge, and impact damage and call it good.

[Mattrulesok]

I think when if they re-write the Black Coach warscroll they should just look at what they did with the IDK leviadon, a powerful support piece that create a strong buff within a bubble (obvs not +1 save for NH) that is also able to do plenty of damage in combat if you get it into the right matchups.

[Mattrulesok]

I actually had a swing at it's warscroll, thoughts?

 

[EnixLHQ]

8 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said:

I actually had a swing at it's warscroll, thoughts?

 

Not bad. I'd still add something like "Spectral Translocation: Instead of making a normal move, you can remove this model from the battlefield and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy models. In addition, you may select any 1 friendly Nighthaunt unit that is within 3” of this model prior to this model's normal move or Spectral Translocation and remove it from the battlefield. After this model's move, set this unit up wholly within 9" of this model and more than 9" from any enemy models." This would allow the Coach to transport a unit with it around the table or using it's greater normal movement.

Also, as an aside, nothing prevents GW from modifying ethereal saves. They'd just have to write a rule to allow it. 

[dmorley21]

12 hours ago, Bayul said:

Correct, give me lower overall buffs and slim down this warscroll.

To be honest, I don't need buffs from a coach. Carriages aren't part of an army. Its passengers and their destination should be relevant somehow. Let it deep strike and disembark units for example.

Levels aren't even that thematic. Why does an undead coach absorb death magic to level up? Acceleration? Charge with it and deal a number of mortal wounds on impact based on the charge roll, like my Ogors do. Much simpler.

I would mind levels on gravesites though.

I’d hate to see this and I think you’re misunderstanding what the black coach is.

First, it’s always had power levels. Or at least has for the 20 years I’ve been playing (WHFB before). The way it levels up changes. I remember a time when it added to its wound characteristic for every model it killed and had an upwards bracket... got better as it went above its base wounds. 
 

And it’s definitely not a ghost carriage. It’s the soul of a vampire or a necromancer that is being carried. As such, I wouldn’t mind you being able to choose which one and if you choose Necro it gets a spell and if you choose Vampire it gets the +1 attack command ability. 
 

I do think the levels should be buffs for nearby units, and that it should just do its impact hits regularly. 

[Bayul]

37 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I’d hate to see this and I think you’re misunderstanding what the black coach is.

First, it’s always had power levels. Or at least has for the 20 years I’ve been playing (WHFB before). The way it levels up changes. I remember a time when it added to its wound characteristic for every model it killed and had an upwards bracket... got better as it went above its base wounds. 
 

And it’s definitely not a ghost carriage. It’s the soul of a vampire or a necromancer that is being carried. As such, I wouldn’t mind you being able to choose which one and if you choose Necro it gets a spell and if you choose Vampire it gets the +1 attack command ability. 
 

I do think the levels should be buffs for nearby units, and that it should just do its impact hits regularly. 

It's irrelevant if it had levels for over 20 years. It's time for a change. GW demonstrated it wants Vampires and Necromancers in Soulblight Gravelords exclusively. So that argument is invalid. It's actually even worse that levels are an inheritance from Vampire Counts.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Bayul

[dmorley21]

5 minutes ago, Bayul said:

It's irrelevant if it had levels for over 20 years. It's time for a change. GW demonstrated it wants Vampires and Necromancers in Soulblight Gravelords exclusively. So that argument is invalid. It's actually even worse that levels are an inheritance from Vampire Counts.

And it's current model is undisputable a ghost carriage.

Agree to disagree on the levels, but that’s a subjective thing. We’d both be happy if it had better rules, though I do think it’s underrated as is. 
 

As for it being a ghost carriage... it’s not? The whole model is literally built around the vampire/necromancer in its coffin. And the lore pretty clearly says it’s the dark will of a powerful vampire or necromancer re-formed in a new physical shell. 
 

That lore is really cool and makes all kinds of rules possible, just not transporting ghosts around. 
 

Let’s just hope it becomes a true centerpiece it ought to be. 

[Bayul]

1 minute ago, dmorley21 said:

As for it being a ghost carriage... it’s not? The whole model is literally built around the vampire/necromancer in its coffin. And the lore pretty clearly says it’s the dark will of a powerful vampire or necromancer re-formed in a new physical shell.

What's your source? GWs description speaks of a "dormant occupant". After the recent changes to some warscroll I don't agree that Nighthaunt care about vampires or necromancers anymore and vise versa.

Reducing the Black Coach's concept to its coffin would simply make it a shrine. Having Flying and Ethereal confirms that it's a ghostly unit primarily. I bet the old Vampire Counts coach didn't had such keywords. It's concept changed and I think the warscoll should respect that.

[Pyrk]

3 hours ago, Bayul said:

What's your source? GWs description speaks of a "dormant occupant". After the recent changes to some warscroll I don't agree that Nighthaunt care about vampires or necromancers anymore and vise versa.

Reducing the Black Coach's concept to its coffin would simply make it a shrine. Having Flying and Ethereal confirms that it's a ghostly unit primarily. I bet the old Vampire Counts coach didn't had such keywords. It's concept changed and I think the warscoll should respect that.

See attached image, part of the Black Coach description in the Nighthaunt battletome.

[Mattrulesok]

8 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Not bad. I'd still add something like "Spectral Translocation: Instead of making a normal move, you can remove this model from the battlefield and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy models. In addition, you may select any 1 friendly Nighthaunt unit that is within 3” of this model prior to this model's normal move or Spectral Translocation and remove it from the battlefield. After this model's move, set this unit up wholly within 9" of this model and more than 9" from any enemy models." This would allow the Coach to transport a unit with it around the table or using it's greater normal movement.

Also, as an aside, nothing prevents GW from modifying ethereal saves. They'd just have to write a rule to allow it. 

I saw the suggestion for that rule earlier but in my mind the coach needs to be a powerful buff piece not a transport piece. As well, with the rules id like to see on it, a teleport would make them worse as the ideal position with it's buffs would be center board touching as many units as possible. Teleporting into the corner to steal objectives or facilitate a charge takes those powerful buffs, you have to pay points for, away from the majority of the army but that's strictly talking about the rules i wrote and adding the teleport rules to the current coach would be a nice buff.

 

and you're right nothing stops them modifying ethereal with a rule but honestly improving deathless spirits felt more thematic with the warscroll i wrote and is just as strong.

[Bayul]

20 minutes ago, Pyrk said:

See attached image, part of the Black Coach description in the Nighthaunt battletome.

Thank you. 

So I was right? The coffin does not carry a necromancer nor vampire, but a reformed shell they took after their destruction.
If the Black Coach doesn't get a VAMPIRE, NECROMANCER or SOULBLIGHT GRAVELORDS keyword I don't see the point to refer to the old Vampire Counts unit and its dated levels.

[EnixLHQ]

I was suggesting the Coach have some utility along with firepower, not mutually exclusive uses. Sort of how it is now, where it plays more than one role depending on its level and your needs. I would love to deploy this thing every game and my opponent is never sure which way I will play it. As long as whatever it does is in service of providing a solid foundation to attack from, I'll be happy.

No sense in arguing over something that doesn't exist. Our Black Coach performs exactly as it does right now. In the future? None of us know. But it seems every time we bring up what we'd like to see out of the faction we start arguing over the details. As though one nice-to-have is better than another nice-to-have, none of which we actually have.

Getting back on the subject of the Metawatch article and the two sample lists; they are getting tore up on the official Facebook page. I feel kind of bad. For me, though, it draws the legitimacy of these articles into question. They're intended to start a conversation, and get players point of view on new content and get games going using it, but this just highlights how little regard is given to some factions over others. Thanks for all the new stuff, GW, but you still can't get serious players to give NH the same kind of attention more powerful armies get. The new stuff doesn't address anything.

We're still a ways away from the Be'lakor FAQ, I think. I'm hesitant to think of how the rulings will go.

[lare2]

I'm just hopeful that AoS 3.0 sees me finally make and paint my Black Coach. Had it since xmas 2018...

[Neck-Romantic]

It feels like NH lack a strong 'theme' that sctually translates to effectiveness on the table. Khorne are scary in melee, Tzeentch and high elves are amazing at magic etc.

 

If bravery is really supposed to be our "oh sh*t" theme, maybe we should get an army-wide "Always strikes first" vs enemies with a bravery of X or lower.

 

That would give our bravery debuffs a use, and really give us our "oh sh*t" niche. Perhaps change wave of terror to causing impact mortal wounds and an additional -1 bravery to compensate.

 

(I have always wanted to see frightful touch expanded as well)

Edited May 23, 2021 by Neck-Romantic

[Bayul]

40 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

(I have always wanted to see frightful touch expanded as well)

I actually want to see Ghostly Howl transfered to Myrmourn Banshees.

[Ranzou]

Tried today Emerald Host with Death Riders and Cruciator.

Olinder, Cruciator, Torment, Guardian, Harrow, 30 reapers, 12 banshees, 2 chaingheists, 2x5 Hexwraiths, coach.

Against Skryers stand and shoot:

Tanquol, doomwheel, lightning canon, 2x3 fiends, engenier, bombardier, 6 snipers, 3x1 ratling gun, 5 acolytes.

Man I love this bad boy. Cruciator effectively tripled deathless saves. With him five wraiths tanked 6 rat snipers, 2 rat machinegunners, 3 stormfiends for a whole double turn of fire.

Second squad WoTed full Tanquol.

30 reapers lost only 10 to fiends fire for a whole double turn.

Now nighthaunts really have dakka - cruciator+chaingheists wiped half of snipers. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Ranzou

[Neck-Romantic]

@bayul Agreed; I had originally hoped to field a Terrorghiest along with Nighthaunt bravery shenanigans but alas

[Landohammer]

I think the Black Coach is mostly fine in terms of statline, I just think it lacks the offensive output to justify its point cost (and model). At the end of the day you are generally relying on the 3 attacks from the rider to do most of the damage, and that just doesn't cut it. 

I think the soul grasp attack and scythe should both come standard (you shouldn't have to choose), along with about a 10% point drop. Those two minor changes would go a long way. 

[Landohammer]

Played a competitive game vs a really hard Lumineth List including Teclis, 30 wardens, Cathalar, 20 sentinels, and 5 blade lords

My list was 3x10 hexwraiths in dolorous guard, 20 chainrasp, 15 bladegeist, 12 myrmourn, a coach, spirit torment, and KoS on steed. Emerald host sub.

Battleplan: Scorched Earth (with burned objectives scoring a flat 2CP since that is an upcoming tourney scenario)

My opponent castled hard, took turn one and did about 10 mortals with tecnado. Between tecnado and sentinels, he ended up leaving my general on 1 wound , killing a few hexwraiths, and doing 5 wounds to the coach. Ouch

On my turn, my coach (having hit level 3 on round 1!!!) healed 3 wounds, rolled a 6 to run, and rolled an 11 to charge some sentinels in his backfield. However, because of his subfactions and shining company,  sentinels had -1 to be hit, 4+ save, and 5+ FNP. So even with the Wave of Terror I only killed 7/10 sentinels and he auto passed. Since he is castled up I move onto 6/8 objectives and scored well.  

Next turn I take 9-10 more mortals from another tecnado, lose both characters and he kills some hexwraiths with his 2+ save wardens (also -1 to hit and 5++ FNP). But he is unable to kill the coach which is now on his objective (it had 1 wound left!!) 

My turn I kill his big block of wardens, and basically pin him up in his deployment zone. Coach burns the objective he was on!  I think I am in good shape until...

He teleports (WTF they can teleport now??) onto my back objectives with 10 sentinels and burns 2 of my objectives

Next turn, I burn another objective, and by this point the majority of his army is still hard castled, but he uses Speed of Hysh to double move into my deployment zone with blademasters. He charges my 7 remaining Myrmourn on the objective.

Fortunately he rolls poorly and I make some hot 4+ saves, and I hold on to the objective to end the game.

Final score: 20-16 Nighthaunt win!

Thoughts

I have expressed this before, but I find the LRL army quite frustrating to play against. The sheer damage output of Tecnado is insane, and its particularly rough on our army since we like to clump up for auras. And of course we all know what sentinels can do. However his army overly relied on castling and here the high mobility of Hexwraiths and Black Coach really paid off. His units are extremely over-performing, but if they arent on objectives they can't win games. 

The dolorous guard + emerald host cheese wasn't as effective as I hoped. Since he nearly always had -1 to hit, I often needed 5+ to hit, and he was shrugging my mortal wounds off. However I still think Hexwraiths have a place since their speed and durability make them hard to deal with. 

I often think about leaving the Coach at home but then there are games like this where he saves the day. I know he sucks in combat, but being able to turn 1 charge/tie up a high threat unit and ****** with your opponents plans is really powerful. Myrmourn were meh. I had hoped their magic defense would do better, but they took too many casualties before they got within range and trying to dispel auto-casted spells of 10 with a +3 isn't exactly reliable. I should have deepstriked them.

 

[The_Dudemeister]

Spoiler

Meanwhile, Lady Olynder and her Nighthaunt were tricked into an alliance with the famously deceitful Be’lakor. But she’s no fool, so she forced him to give her something in return. He promised the Mortarch of Grief the souls of the Stormcast Eternals, which seems like a pretty sweet deal to us. More on that in a bit… 

The new Warcomm article that brings us up to speed with the lore mentioned this. Do we know anything about it from Be'Lakor's book or is there something new coming?

Edited May 25, 2021 by The_Dudemeister

[Pyrk]

12 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

  Hide contents

Meanwhile, Lady Olynder and her Nighthaunt were tricked into an alliance with the famously deceitful Be’lakor. But she’s no fool, so she forced him to give her something in return. He promised the Mortarch of Grief the souls of the Stormcast Eternals, which seems like a pretty sweet deal to us. More on that in a bit… 

The new Warcomm article that brings us up to speed with the lore mentioned this. Do we know anything about it from Be'Lakor's book or is there something new coming?

It's in Be'lakor.