AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Dan.Ford]

2 hours ago, Easytyger said:

Were you saying that it's good specifically for Insensate Thirster? I don't think I'm interpreting the way Flowstone blade works correctly.

The way I'm reading it what it does is make attacks with to hit rolls of 6+ have a subsequent wound roll of plus 1 meaning the Great axe still wound on 2+ and trigger Outrageous Carnage on a 5 or 6.  Does it do something different or more than this? 

Yes, correct.

First you pick one of your weapons for that attack you want to be the Flowstone blade is Dagger, hammer , flail , axe  etc.

When you roll to hits any 6+ for that weapon ( not weapons just one weapon) add +1 wounds for that attack.

So if you are luck and you roll 2 6+ for that weapon.

Your wound rolls for that weapon only will have +2 to wound.

So Outragous carnage would trigger on a 4, 5 and 6 but still wounding a 2's.

[Praecautus]

I had not realised gorecleaver was on the 6 for the MW as opposed to 6 or more.  That really messes up the jugger lord and cleaver combo now😕

I love my jugger lord, what are people running him with now?

Edited November 14, 2018 by Praecautus

[Retro]

1 hour ago, Dan.Ford said:

Yes, correct.

First you pick one of your weapons for that attack you want to be the Flowstone blade is Dagger, hammer , flail , axe  etc.

When you roll to hits any 6+ for that weapon ( not weapons just one weapon) add +1 wounds for that attack.

So if you are luck and you roll 2 6+ for that weapon.

Your wound rolls for that weapon only will have +2 to wound.

So Outragous carnage would trigger on a 4, 5 and 6 but still wounding a 2's.

I always interpreted that as being only the specific attack that hit 6 or higher got +1 to wound.

For example, hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+, you get 3 hits, a 4, 5 and a 6. Then when you make wound rolls, 2 of them will wound on 4+ and 1 of them on 3+.

I would love to be wrong about this, it would make flowstone way better than I thought

[Roark]

12 hours ago, andysonic1 said:

So that means that Gorecleaver is pretty much useless at the moment compared to Ghyrstrike, wew. Makes my most recent decision to take a Daemon Prince with Ghyrstrike + Immense Power + Axe that much easier to swallow.

Gorecleaver gives you an extra Rend. Still very much useful, given how easy it is for us to get bonuses to Hit. Gorecleaver is still, I think, our only source of extra Rend.

[Roark]

2 hours ago, Praecautus said:

I had not realised gorecleaver was on the 6 for the MW as opposed to 6 or more.  That really messes up the jugger lord and cleaver combo now😕

I love my jugger lord, what are people running him with now?

Oh, damn... Just saw that. :-(

Blade of Anraheir it is then, for me...

FYI, one of the Khorne Facebook group Admins has asked GW to clarify 6=6+ for AoS2.0. Hope we get a response soon...

[Dan.Ford]

1 hour ago, Retro said:

I always interpreted that as being only the specific attack that hit 6 or higher got +1 to wound.

For example, hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+, you get 3 hits, a 4, 5 and a 6. Then when you make wound rolls, 2 of them will wound on 4+ and 1 of them on 3+.

I would love to be wrong about this, it would make flowstone way better than I thought

Not specific hit at all.

Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for this weapon, add 1 to the wound roll for that attack.

 

If it had said ' add 1 to the wound roll for that HIT.' Then yes .

 

 

[Dan.Ford]

41 minutes ago, Roark said:

Oh, damn... Just saw that. 😞

Blade of Anraheir it is then, for me...

FYI, one of the Khorne Facebook group Admins has asked GW to clarify 6=6+ for AoS2.0. Hope we get a response soon...

GW Heatsand other events were was done as 6 are synonymously 6+ and 6 or more due to the faq years back.

Now faq missing/ removed .

GW Final , blackout , B&G was done as a special number that moved by mod's. ( as written )

Facehammer was done as unmodified/ natural 6.

 

So now always check with T.O or play as written.

Magic number moving about each phase and turns depending on mod's and how they work.

This effect other units and other armies.

[Kharneth]

13 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

The latest general's handbook increased gore pilgrims to 200 points and so overrides the points in the khorne battletome. The old points cost was in AOS v1. In AOS 2 battalions give you a command point which normally costs you 50 points so that is now built into the cost. Gore Pilgrims is still very much worth it but pretty much only if you max it out with all 3 priests. 

Skull Crushers do quite well I'm told. Bit of a shock cavalry, some mortal wounds on the charge, some resilience with high wounds and extra resistance to magic damage. Your plans to buff them with a priest and juggerlord are solid. If going that route there is a battalion called Brass Stampede which you may want to check out.

With the new points costs for Gore Pilgrims and Skulltake I can no longer afford a unit of Bloodcrushers (maybe 3?) with the battalions. I definitely want a Juggerlord for the +1 to wound buff on the Skullreapers to keep them from hurting themselves. I want Blood Warriors and Skullreapers at least. When do you get your command point, turn 1? And each battalion gives me a command point? Are most people able to squeeze to battalions into 2000 points?

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Kharneth

[Dan.Ford]

How about 40 bloodreavers.

In some game you can put a wall up front on the 12"-15" line 

or

run your army forward and put them at the back to stop deep striking in  (9" from back edge)

or castle units.

[Easytyger]

5 hours ago, Dan.Ford said:

Not specific hit at all.

Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for this weapon, add 1 to the wound roll for that attack.

 

If it had said ' add 1 to the wound roll for that HIT.' Then yes .

 

 

So add 1 to wound roll for that attack refers to all the wound rolls in total for that weapon's attack?

Let me go through an example similar to Retro's to make sure I understand this.

My Insensate Bloodthirster rolls 4 attacks with the Great Axe of Khorne which has been designated as the Flowstone Blade.  He is buffed with +1 to Hit from Killing frenzy.  Unmodified rolls are  2, 3, 5, and 6. These are modified to a 3, 4, 6, 7. Because he rolled two hits of 6+ he now would get +2 to his wound rolls for all of the successful hits. So I roll 4 to Wound  rolls which are unmodified 2, 4, 4, 5. These are now modified to 4, 6, 6, 7. This would then trigger Outrageous Carnage 3 times.  Am I applying the effects of the Flowstone properly in this example?

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Easytyger

[Kharneth]

34 minutes ago, Easytyger said:

So add 1 to wound roll for that attack refers to all the wound rolls in total for that weapon's attack?

Let me go through an example similar to Retro's to make sure I understand this.

My Insensate Bloodthirster rolls 4 attacks with the Great Axe of Khorne which has been designated as the Flowstone Blade.  He is buffed with +1 to Hit from Killing frenzy.  Unmodified rolls are  2, 3, 5, and 6. These are modified to a 3, 4, 6, 7. Because he rolled two hits of 6+ he now would get +2 to his wound rolls for all of the successful hits. So I roll 4 to Wound  rolls which are unmodified 2, 4, 4, 5. These are now modified to 4, 6, 6, 7. This would then trigger Outrageous Carnage 3 times.  Am I applying the effects of the Flowstone properly in this example?

 

That is what he is saying, yes. 

Personally, I don't know what the intent for that weapon's rule to be, but my interpretation would be "that attack" refers to the specific 6 rolled and not all of the attacks for that model. GW is ambiguous, though because sometimes an "attack" refers to all the dice rolled for a model when he fights and sometime it refers to each individual dice roll. I'd assume that after rolling a 6+ to hit, that specific die would be rolled separately and given a +1, meaning multiple 6s would just be multiple dice with +1 to them. 

Dan.Ford might be right, and if he is than I'll probably have to try a Bloodthirster backed by 2 priests since I've got an Insensate Rage 'Thirster sitting around.

I've heard mention of WoK Bloodthirster being the best in general and at being the general. I've also heard that Gore Pilgrims are very powerful and I'm wondering if they're used together or are independently useful. Is Gore Pilgrims used in daemon or mixed armies (I assumed they were mostly mortal armies). Are WoK Bloodthirsters useful for mortal armies? If so, how? I like the +2 to unbind, but with 2 slaughterpriests, a bloodsecrator, and the brazen rune I wonder if a +2 to unbind is really all that important. 

What am I missing? 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Kharneth

[Dan.Ford]

Correct

GW is ambiguous, though because  a "attack" refers to all thee dice rolled for a model when he fights .

And all other weapons , that is why this item said at start

Pick one of bearers melee weapons to be a Flowstone blade .

 

Almost

Because he rolled two hits of 6+ he now would get +2 to his wound rolls for all of the successful 'hits'

 

[Kharneth]

18 minutes ago, Dan.Ford said:

Correct

GW is ambiguous, though because  a "attack" refers to all thee dice rolled for a model when he fights .

And all other weapons , that is why this item said at start

Pick one of bearers melee weapons to be a Flowstone blade .

 

Almost

Because he rolled two hits of 6+ he now would get +2 to his wound rolls for all of the successful 'hits'

 

So, taking a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage with Gore Pilgrims and 2 Killing Frenzys would give him 5 attacks hitting on 2+ and all 4+s will give all wound rolls a +1? That would be insane. 

 

The only problem I have with your interpretation is that the Flowstone Blade rule says "add 1 to the wound roll for that attack." It seems to imply the specific die, not the attack of the wielder. Shouldn't it instead read "add 1 to the wound roll for the attack."? 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Kharneth

[andysonic1]

You're supposed to roll your attacks one at a time and even your saves one at a time for just this reason.

[Dan.Ford]

 

Item

Pick one of the bearer's melee weapons to be a Flowstone blade. Each time you roll a hit  roll of 6+ for this weapon, add 1 to the wound roll for that attack. 

 

GW is ambiguous, though because  a "attack" refers to all thee dice rolled for a model when he fights .

Pick from all your weapons on model that you want to be the Flowstone blade is Dagger, hammer , flail , axe  etc.

When you roll to hits any 6+ for that weapon ( not weapons just one weapon) add +1 wounds for that attack, not any of the other attack by other weapons.

Not at home so this also may help you. It's for faq.

ATTACKING
Q: Can I choose not to attack with a model, or not to use one or 
more of a model’s weapons when it attacks?
A: You can choose not to attack with a unit or a weapon 
in the shooting phase. In the combat phase you must 
pick a unit to fight with if you have any eligible to do so, 
and the models in a unit that is selected to fight must 
attack with all of the weapons they are allowed to use 
and which are in range of an enemy unit.

I hope this helps.
 

[Kharneth]

Dan.Ford,

That explanation does not help anything. I believe the correct way to use the Flowstone Blade is as follows:

Roll a single attack die, if it's a 6+ it gets +1 on its to wound roll. Do this once for each attack that the wielder has with this weapon. Each roll of a 6+ to Hit buffs itself by +1 to Wound, but they do not buff each other. At best, with a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, you'll roll 4 6s to hit and then each of them will have a +1 to wound. 

Alternatively, you could use the Onyx Blade on the Bloodthirster for +1 to wound, use Juggerlord command ability for another +1 to wound, and Slaughterborn to make a 3rd attack hit. With 3 reliable attacks landing and +2 to wound, you're nearly guaranteed to cause the explosion of mortal wounds once, maybe twice. Dunno if +2 to wound on a 2+ to wound guy is worth it, though. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Kharneth

[andysonic1]

Games Workshop is requesting suggestions on points increases and decreases for all armies! <-- this is also the link to their facebook

A guy named Patrick Fisher wrote a pretty good breakdown that I mostly agree with already:

Quote

Khorne points breakdown, with suggested adjustments:

Skullcannons: Could use a points decrease (20-30?), as they are unreliable shooting at best.

Bloodletters: Fine as is. We knew they needed adjustment after dealing with murderhost.

Blood reavers: Fine as is (maybe more of a discount at max unit to make large units more tempting?). Good chaff, nuff said.

Blood Warriors: Good for their points, and really don't need an adjustment.

All the mortal heroes: Good for their points, no adjustments needed. 

Blood throne: Is completely worthless as a unit. Either rewrite the scroll or drop it down to 80 points (yes, like a chaos chariot).

Skulltaker/Skullmaster: Drop to 80 points

Karanak: Give the good doggo the hero keyword, and we're solid

Bloodthirsters: Fine as is, though they are bit unpowered for their points (compared to other behemoths)

Skarbrand: good as is

bloodcrushers: Are completely useless as a unit, but look awesome. They either need a rewrite for their warscroll or cost 90-100 for 3 (like marauder horsemen).

Flesh hounds: Fine as is

Khorgoraths: Since battalions went up so much, bring these guys back to 80 points please, since when they're outside of skulltake battalion, these guys are a bit overcosted. (ALSO, multi-part kits please! These models are too good/cool not to get more love on the table).

Mighty skullscrushers: Probably fine for their points. Have not had the chance to play with them extensively. Maybe make them 10 points cheaper per 3? Or maybe a max unit discount?

wrathmongers/skullreapers: Fine for their points (even though i want them cheaper 😜 ) 

Vorgaroth the Scarred & Skalok the Skull Host of Khorne: Cool rules, but way too many points to actually make it worth fielding, besides a massive narrative game.

Other Forgeworld models: Do not own any of them, so I really can't comment, besides the general trend of forgeworld models cost way too many points for what they do, and the rules writers need to combine their efforts to make forgeworld models viable, cool choices, and not just knick-knacks on your shelf, or just not write rules for them.

I think battalions are over-costed as a force multiplier as a whole, but that's a separate rant. I look forward to what you have in store for us Chaos players with Wrath and Rapture  

Thanks for the opportunity for the community to share its thoughts.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

 

[Easytyger]

28 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Dan.Ford,

That explanation does not help anything. I believe the correct way to use the Flowstone Blade is as follows:

Roll a single attack die, if it's a 6+ it gets +1 on its to wound roll. Do this once for each attack that the wielder has with this weapon. Each roll of a 6+ to Hit buffs itself by +1 to Wound, but they do not buff each other. At best, with a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, you'll roll 4 6s to hit and then each of them will have a +1 to wound. 

Alternatively, you could use the Onyx Blade on the Bloodthirster for +1 to wound, use Juggerlord command ability for another +1 to wound, and Slaughterborn to make a 3rd attack hit. With 3 reliable attacks landing and +2 to wound, you're nearly guaranteed to cause the explosion of mortal wounds once, maybe twice. Dunno if +2 to wound on a 2+ to wound guy is worth it, though. 

Well it seem the distinction here is what they mean by "that attack" vs something like "that hit" as @Dan.Ford has pointed out.

That attack may mean all hits by that weapon.  I don't think it's clear.  

Edited November 14, 2018 by Easytyger

[Dan.Ford]

@Kharneth It's ok I tried to explain it. But if I ever play against anyone with this item we will play it as written 

Loosely put :The attack from the picked weapon, each hits of a 6+ with the pick weapon adds +1 to the wound rolls from that weapon attack.

[Dan.Ford]

10 minutes ago, andysonic1 said:

  Quote

Khorne points breakdown, with suggested adjustments:

Skullcannons: Could use a points decrease (20-30?), as they are unreliable shooting at best.

Bloodletters: Fine as is. We knew they needed adjustment after dealing with murderhost.

Blood reavers: Fine as is (maybe more of a discount at max unit to make large units more tempting?). Good chaff, nuff said.

Blood Warriors: Good for their points, and really don't need an adjustment.

All the mortal heroes: Good for their points, no adjustments needed. 

Blood throne: Is completely worthless as a unit. Either rewrite the scroll or drop it down to 80 points (yes, like a chaos chariot).

Skulltaker/Skullmaster: Drop to 80 points

Karanak: Give the good doggo the hero keyword, and we're solid

Bloodthirsters: Fine as is, though they are bit unpowered for their points (compared to other behemoths)

Skarbrand: good as is

bloodcrushers: Are completely useless as a unit, but look awesome. They either need a rewrite for their warscroll or cost 90-100 for 3 (like marauder horsemen).

Flesh hounds: Fine as is

Khorgoraths: Since battalions went up so much, bring these guys back to 80 points please, since when they're outside of skulltake battalion, these guys are a bit overcosted. (ALSO, multi-part kits please! These models are too good/cool not to get more love on the table).

Mighty skullscrushers: Probably fine for their points. Have not had the chance to play with them extensively. Maybe make them 10 points cheaper per 3? Or maybe a max unit discount?

wrathmongers/skullreapers: Fine for their points (even though i want them cheaper 😜 ) 

Vorgaroth the Scarred & Skalok the Skull Host of Khorne: Cool rules, but way too many points to actually make it worth fielding, besides a massive narrative game.

Other Forgeworld models: Do not own any of them, so I really can't comment, besides the general trend of forgeworld models cost way too many points for what they do, and the rules writers need to combine their efforts to make forgeworld models viable, cool choices, and not just knick-knacks on your shelf, or just not write rules for them.

I think battalions are over-costed as a force multiplier as a whole, but that's a separate rant. I look forward to what you have in store for us Chaos players with Wrath and Rapture  

Thanks for the opportunity for the community to share its thoughts.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

Agreed 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Dan.Ford
Wrong copy

[Dan.Ford]

GW sometime thinking about points changes about now , ready for the new year.

It maybe good shout to be chatting about points of units and battalions.

[Praecautus]

Overall I feel we are in a decent place points wise for units, although saying that some scrolls need tidying to ensure right key word or correct wording.

I have a horrid feeling priests will go up due to the power of the prayer in pilgrims and their ability to drive summoning. 

[Dan.Ford]

Bloodbound host of khorne 220 , never see it on the table . 

Bloodbound War band 220 . Will never be played at 2000 match play.

The Gorechosen . Can not be played as needs EIGHT heros lol

Dark Feast 200! , 140 maybe

Brass Stampede 200 !! 150

Charnel Host 200 ! Too much.

The Bloodlords 100 and Tge Reapers or Vengeance 80 . Impossible to play at 2000 point.

Blades of khorne have one of the highest averages for battalions .

 

[Dan.Ford]

11 minutes ago, Praecautus said:

Overall I feel we are in a decent place points wise for units, although saying that some scrolls need tidying to ensure right key word or correct wording.

I have a horrid feeling priests will go up due to the power of the prayer in pilgrims and their ability to drive summoning. 

Agreed 

I hope GW remembers that our priest prayers are on 4's not 3's like other armies.

[Kharneth]

30 minutes ago, Dan.Ford said:

@Kharneth It's ok I tried to explain it. But if I ever play against anyone with this item we will play it as written 

Loosely put :The attack from the picked weapon, each hits of a 6+ with the pick weapon adds +1 to the wound rolls from that weapon attack.

Obviously everyone intends to use the items with the rules as written, I think it's just pretty unclear.