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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

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Woah, this list just has so much flavour. Its literally called "Da Boss Fist" and just has all those beatiful bosses (6!) and brutes, like, super elite stuff, nothing weaker then a brute. I hope so much this establishes itself somehow and works, i can't feel but pure joy looking at such a list.

I still think the Footboss isn't as much a tax as we think it is, but I agree the cost of this battalion alone is a bit hefty. 

I need to know how this list worked for you @Lanoss!

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The more I look at Bossfist the more it seems to me that the intention should be to lean into and embrace the use of the bosses.  That should be self-evident by the name, but it strikes me that a lot of our discussion about “what it should have been” are somewhat off base because we are looking at the footbosses as a tax rather than a center design of the battalion.

Now, it could very well be the case that the battalion could be designed in a different way to make footbosses a more attractive option, but removing them does not seem like the right way to view the battalion.  In addition, it could well be the case that the battalion as it stands is just not great - which would be a shame but is probably the case for over half the battalions in the game.  I still contend that the base cost of the battalion is overly high - but I think that leaning into the footbosses as relatively cheap units with high offensive potential might be somewhat decent.  If you can get artifacts on those heroes you could turn them into pretty decent blenders.

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2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

The more I look at Bossfist the more it seems to me that the intention should be to lean into and embrace the use of the bosses.  That should be self-evident by the name, but it strikes me that a lot of our discussion about “what it should have been” are somewhat off base because we are looking at the footbosses as a tax rather than a center design of the battalion.

Now, it could very well be the case that the battalion could be designed in a different way to make footbosses a more attractive option, but removing them does not seem like the right way to view the battalion.  In addition, it could well be the case that the battalion as it stands is just not great - which would be a shame but is probably the case for over half the battalions in the game.  I still contend that the base cost of the battalion is overly high - but I think that leaning into the footbosses as relatively cheap units with high offensive potential might be somewhat decent.  If you can get artifacts on those heroes you could turn them into pretty decent blenders.

On the footbosses it's best viewed as a free half-stack (no wound) on strength from victory. They still have all the traditional problems faced by Footbosses, slow as sin, massive bases, unreliable and no support abilities.

Say we lean into maximising the gain from it. The units we are talking about are all multi-damage units anyway. Brutes have the boss/special weapon while MK/footboss have no single damage unit, so lets just drop the WC altogether and go full ham.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Battalions
Boss Fist (220)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 118

This is a 1 drop list which maximises the +1 attack, the MSU Brutes is a classic for the +1 attack and the smaller units means that you are getting an extra attack on both the boss and the choppa. More over the fact you're running 10 units in a 1drop means that you need to roll a 2+ for the 2 extra attacks giving you 11 attacks base from both the Krusha weapons, 9 attacks from each of the footbosses while the brutes are doing 13 attacks on 4+/3+/-1/2 and 21 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/1.

That's a ton of attacks and half of your army is gaining wounds/attacks whenever it kills something in a combat phase which combined with the Ironsunz CA is actually something which should happen a fair bit, not to mention that you have a massive amount of CA coverage and the -1 to hit to soak that first round.

It's more than a bit mad but could be a laugh. Plus it's a 1 drop which are basically unheard of atm.

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just a heads up, the Da Bossfist requires 2-3 Footbosses and 2-3 units of brutes.

Edited by Superninja

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33 minutes ago, Malakree said:

On the footbosses it's best viewed as a free half-stack (no wound) on strength from victory. They still have all the traditional problems faced by Footbosses, slow as sin, massive bases, unreliable and no support abilities.

Say we lean into maximising the gain from it. The units we are talking about are all multi-damage units anyway. Brutes have the boss/special weapon while MK/footboss have no single damage unit, so lets just drop the WC altogether and go full ham.

This is a 1 drop list which maximises the +1 attack, the MSU Brutes is a classic for the +1 attack and the smaller units means that you are getting an extra attack on both the boss and the choppa. More over the fact you're running 10 units in a 1drop means that you need to roll a 2+ for the 2 extra attacks giving you 11 attacks base from both the Krusha weapons, 9 attacks from each of the footbosses while the brutes are doing 13 attacks on 4+/3+/-1/2 and 21 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/1.

That's a ton of attacks and half of your army is gaining wounds/attacks whenever it kills something in a combat phase which combined with the Ironsunz CA is actually something which should happen a fair bit, not to mention that you have a massive amount of CA coverage and the -1 to hit to soak that first round.

It's more than a bit mad but could be a laugh. Plus it's a 1 drop which are basically unheard of atm.

Only 2-3 Megabosses on foot, 2-3 Brutes, I'm afraid. So no triple Megaboss and no 5 Brute squads.

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I I threw this list together with the bossfist. It seems to generate a fair number of CP so I'm running a fungoid and aether quartz brooch.


Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
15 x Orruk Brutes (420)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Battalions
Bossfist (220)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 90 / 400
Wounds: 120
 

 

Edited by Ganigumo
Not supposed to have extra CP

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1 hour ago, Rentar said:

Only 2-3 Megabosses on foot, 2-3 Brutes, I'm afraid. So no triple Megaboss and no 5 Brute squads.

ugh I confused it with the other one for 1-5 brutes.

I guess that just leaves you with 2 cabbages, 2 footbosses, 10+5+5 brutes :(

Honestly it's just bad for it's cost.

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Regarding the Bloodtoofs Command Ability

BREAK THROUGH THE LINE
“You can use this command ability at the end of your combat phase. If you do so, pick 1 friendly BLOODTOOF unit that fought in that combat phase and that is wholly within 24" of a friendly BLOODTOOF HERO. That unit can make a normal move, but cannot run or retreat.”


Can you move that unit into another enemy unit (ie. within 3” of an enemy unit)?

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You don’t have to fit the whole army into the single battalion.

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1 minute ago, Lanoss said:

Regarding the Bloodtoofs Command Ability

BREAK THROUGH THE LINE
“You can use this command ability at the end of your combat phase. If you do so, pick 1 friendly BLOODTOOF unit that fought in that combat phase and that is wholly within 24" of a friendly BLOODTOOF HERO. That unit can make a normal move, but cannot run or retreat.”


Can you move that unit into another enemy unit (ie. within 3” of an enemy unit)?

No.  Because a normal move cannot end within 3” of an enemy model.

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4 hours ago, Malakree said:

It's more than a bit mad but could be a laugh.

I think that is pretty much what White Dwarf battalions are generally meant to be.  I don’t think they usually intend for these to be top tier competitive and when they do end up that way it is probably wholly unintentional.

I think these types of battalions are meant to be fairly narrative, explore a concept, and lean towards fun.  In that regard I think this one is fine.  At the least it is not bad in terms of the bonuses it gives.  I would be pretty happy with this if it was about 150 points.

But even at the current cost I think there are some interesting, and probably fun, army builds with the battalion.  It’s obviously not the top tier choice around - but you can have fun games with this.  I’m honestly considering modeling up a second Footboss to play with this.

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I might get some more brutes and try out an Aetherquartz Brooch bossfist. With three bosses on the field, you may be able to afford spamming MD. rerolling 1s to hit, and the bosses' +1 to hit ability. 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Allies
Boss Fist (220)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 116

I don't like the 50 unused points, but I feel that the warchanters are a necessity and I don't want to add another drop to the list. 4 drops is better than most, and having control over the first turn is huge for IJ and Ironsunz, especially. At least I'll get the triumph nearly every game, I guess.

I also don't think that sunblessed is dramatically worse than Ethereal, at least so much so that you can't afford another artefact like Aetherquartz, Metalrippa's, or Gryph=Feather. Some day I want to the run the -3 to hit boss with Gryph-Feather and Loud 'Un in this list. I just think it'll be hilarious to be near-unkillable for a full turn.

As for the CP: 3 CP on turn 1, plus 1 more on a 4+. On turn 2, you'll likely have about 5. With 5 CP, Aetherquartz is likely to return at least 1-2. 6-7 CP (and potentially more) over the course of 2 turns definitely lets you accomplish some real ability spam. The damage-boosting command abilities (+1 to hit and rerolling 1s to hit) scale with the attack boost, too, so it can work out to a dramatic difference in damage (about 30% with both applied).

It may be worth putting the Aetherquartz on a backline Megaboss just for the extra wounds and armor save.

Edited by TALegion
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Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Jagged Gore-hackas- 2x Gore Choppas
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas

Battalions
Da Bossfist (220)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125

Just ran this tonight. Turned out better than I thought. 
 
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@TALegion You could downsize 1 unit of Brutes to 5 which would free up another 140 points - Trade it for an Ironfist batallion which would allow all of your 3 Megabosses to have an artefact. Unless you go for the Brooch, in which case you are likely better off putting it on the Warchanter. 😛 

I would probably also take Killa Beat to buff the Brutes with +1 to hit or whatever is hitting the specific unit. Your army is generally gonna be slow, so the Warchanter should easily be able to keep up I'd imagine.  

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Trying to decide on lists for a tourney tomorrow, between my ironsuns or a big waaagh supported by 2 20 blocks of savages and a wurgog. The ironsuns is a 4 drop, the big waaagh is a lot of drops lol. I won last time with the ironsuns list, so big waaagh is the more likely choice. Kicker is do I take the wurgog or an ironfist battalion, both seem like good choices but the wurgog has been pulling weight for me dealing with hordes and unbinds. His spell is usually the fight last one, is the brutal beast spirits worth it to buff up the shootas/ stabbas even more?

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@Lanoss

Played against Slaves to Darkness on Total Commitment.  My buddy played very conservative at first, while I ran towards him.  2nd turn he ran in, which allowed me to be close enough to get the charge.  I waaagh'd and gave violent fury to one set of brutes.  Nearly wiped out 2 sets of 10 chaos warriors and put a hurtin on the 20 stack of chaos warriors.  From there it was pretty much over, I moved into his territory and began to take one of his objectives.  He tried to fly behind me with a 1 health Manticore/chaos lord but I caught up with it. 

The extra attack with the battalion was quite nice.  I'd like to try it without a warchanter to see how it feels.  Overall, I think Ironfist is better, but this is fun and still decent.

 

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18 hours ago, Kasper said:

@TALegion You could downsize 1 unit of Brutes to 5 which would free up another 140 points - Trade it for an Ironfist batallion which would allow all of your 3 Megabosses to have an artefact. Unless you go for the Brooch, in which case you are likely better off putting it on the Warchanter. 😛 

I would probably also take Killa Beat to buff the Brutes with +1 to hit or whatever is hitting the specific unit. Your army is generally gonna be slow, so the Warchanter should easily be able to keep up I'd imagine.  

That's a good call on the Killa' Beat. I normally don't much use out of it, but that's possibly because I lean heavily into Ardboyz and Gore Gruntas, who have a longer threat range.

I don't think I can fit many units in an Ironfist. The bossfist requires 2 units of brutes, and the ironfist fist needs a minimum of 3 units. I can just barely fit 3x 5-man brutes and 2x 5-man ardboyz to meet the minimum number of battleline,  That could be worth exploring, though, since an extra metalrippa's klaw could make a boss much more useful.

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A new Underworld warband just got teased consisting of 3 Brutes, and it is confirmed they will have rules for AoS.

Here is to hoping they might have some interesting buffs/auras that truly make Da Bossfist intimidating. I would love nothing more than to buy a couple of Brute boxes and feel good about fielding them.

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19 minutes ago, Kasper said:

A new Underworld warband just got teased consisting of 3 Brutes, and it is confirmed they will have rules for AoS.

Here is to hoping they might have some interesting buffs/auras that truly make Da Bossfist intimidating. I would love nothing more than to buy a couple of Brute boxes and feel good about fielding them.

Hopefully they go the route if the newer underworld warbands, and you get a “hero” worth 100 points and 2 followers that tag along for another 50 points or so. Like the evocator  and nighthaunt warbands. 
 

it would be sad if they stat them like 3 plain brutes at 100pts or so. Like they did with the first few underworld bands (ardboys I’m looking at you) Wasted opportunity if that’s the case. 

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Tried this list yesterday at a local, tought  i would share the result. Went 2-1 , and my lost was i got stalled. I was not disapointed with the list.

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Choppas
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Checked Out
- Artefact: Destroyer
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
Ironfist (160)
Ardfist (120)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150
 

Game 1 was on focal point against Ogor (2 Frostloard, and a bunch of Leadbelcher in unit or 2 and some wolfve). Game was super close. His list was actually quite interesting, with this spam of 2 man units you have to split attack, and he would maximize the amount of mortal from the charge. I let him go fisrt, but I could not win priority on R2 or 3 to secure the game. I finally managed to take priority in R4 to  clean the rest of his model and grind back some point, but he won back R5 and was able to score 3 more. I ended up scoring 6 in my last turn and won by 1 points.

Game 2 was agaisnt Living cities deep strike (Frost phoenix, 30 pheonix guard, 30 iron drake, and some chaff) on shifting objective.  Again I let him go first and take the hit. Fortunatly, he had bellow average roll and manage to kill only 2 pig (i had the reroll save triumph). Then on my turn I manage to teleport 10 ardboys in the back row and kill his sorceress. I also kill the frost phoenix, but i missed the long charge on the left objective and fall behind on point. On his turn his main pack of irondrake is too far to do something. He charge whith pheonix guard, kill some Brutes but I kill 12 in reatiliation.  On my turn I finish off the guard and kill some chaff to take back 2 objectives. At this point I've basically secured the game, but since there is 13 minutes left we cannot start another round and loose because i'm behind in point...

Game 3 was against Nighthaunt (don't remember the exact list cause i don't know the army really well but there was a bunch of ghost) on Starstrike. Round 1 he turtled and i moved just 6 inch from middle to cover landing zone.  Round 2 start seeing some action as he deepstrike some ghost to score the middle objective. On my turn i grab it back with 10 ardboys. Then round 3 he win priority and deepstrike all his army, scoring 2 objective. However i was able to trigger the ardfist and bring them back to claim back objectives in my territories. At this point i've a slight upper hand, but it's still a close game because he can bring back model. However i win turn 4 priority and he concede.

Tought on da Choppa:

Checked out: Not the most fantastic trait, but not garbage either. 

Rabbed rouser: Super good. I would use it almost every turn. Even if it's just on an extra units, it's still by far our best buff. 

Vandal horde: Again, really solid ability. Suddenly ardboys can deep strike at +3 charge + reroll. In big waaagh and other IJ list i find it hard sometime to have hero nearby and you roll a ****** charge. You can even deep strike with Brutes and with Ironfist, and get 4 chances to get your 9'' charge which is almost garantee. 

Other than that, the 2 batallion worked well. It sure is a lot of point on non-troops but by cutting the mawkrusha it's still give you a lot of body, and keep your drop on the low side.  A pure ardfist could be better, but for me it's out of scope as i don't have 80 ardboys.

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Are you able to move after using Big Green Hand of Gork/Quickduff Amulet? 
 

My friend told me it was possible as I read the spell myself and it specifies in the following movement phase, but Mighty Destroyers is done in the hero phase. 
 

Are you able to quickduff a unit outside of 12” then mighty destroyers to be just outside of 3? (A 9” move, but Brutes can only move 4” as well as ArdBoyz) to essentially guarantee a charge in the charge phase?

 

I run my Gore-Gruntas as a block of 6 and make one of them my Ironfist Big Boss so he can use the ability as though he were a Megaboss. 
 

If I had made Brutes the big boss they’d be outside of 12”, I could pop it to move 4” and that would put me at 8” out for something like a 7 or 8” charge right? 
 

With the +2 Charge bonus from Allegiance Abilities and the Bloodtoofz clan bonus this seems well good? Of course ArdBoyz get a total of +4. 
 

Just thinking if such crazy maneuvers are possible and/or legal for us?

Edited by Ravinsild

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Need some feedback on a rules conundrum that came up in my recent game. I was facing against an OBR army and his big terrain piece chose to activate his Curse of Lethargy on me, which basically prevents me from running and only allows a single D6 for charge moves. If I was to successfully apply the Get Em Beat! chant, would that override the debuff altogether or negate the OBR terrain effect to make it back to a 2D6 charge move? I vaguely remember something like this being brought up with regards to how Hedonites of Slaanesh originally worked, so I just wanted to know which takes precedence.

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1 hour ago, Grimskul25 said:

Need some feedback on a rules conundrum that came up in my recent game. I was facing against an OBR army and his big terrain piece chose to activate his Curse of Lethargy on me, which basically prevents me from running and only allows a single D6 for charge moves. If I was to successfully apply the Get Em Beat! chant, would that override the debuff altogether or negate the OBR terrain effect to make it back to a 2D6 charge move? I vaguely remember something like this being brought up with regards to how Hedonites of Slaanesh originally worked, so I just wanted to know which takes precedence.

The designer's commentary in the Core Rules FAQ says that if two abilities are contradictory, then the ability that was applied second takes precedence.  So Get'em Beat would supercede the OBR terrain effect.

Edited by Aelfric
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20 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

The designer's commentary in the Core Rules FAQ says that if two abilities are contradictory, then the ability that was applied second takes precedence.  So Get'em Beat would supercede the OBR terrain effect.

Thanks! I just found it, we kinda ignored it for that game since we didn't want to get bogged down looking things up, good to know I have a potential built in counter though!

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