AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[glytch]

You can only use Unleash Hell during your opponent's charge phase. Being able to charge in hero or combat phase prevents your opponent from using Unleash Hell.

Furthermore, a MK with Fast'Un mount trait successfully charging during the hero phase (12'' move + 6'' charge) prevents your opponent using Unleash Hell or Redeploy.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Combat phase.

You can't unleash hell outside of the charge phase.

 

Yeah just noticed that.

That one sentence that isn’t quite part of the command ability, that just takes that possibility away from me.

If it wouldn’t be for that meddling sentence, my warplightning cannon could have escaped with shooting thrice in a single turn.

sad, sad me

[Malakree]

8 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah just noticed that.

That one sentence that isn’t quite part of the command ability, that just takes that possibility away from me.

If it wouldn’t be for that meddling sentence, my warplightning cannon could have escaped with shooting thrice in a single turn.

sad, sad rat

Yeah you'll just have to deal with having all your arti in combat with goregruntas thus unable to ever shoot the MKs.

[Malakree]

So getting a better look at some of the warscrolls etc. after getting my battletome this morning. Morgok's Krushas are not bad for 90points. Makes them 5 points more expensive than Ardboys, 9 wounds not 10 but the attacks characteristics are so much better. Not to mention they get the +1 to hit against 4+ wounds.

On the other hand Ironskull's boyz are mental. Basha and Hakka are both just better versions of ardboys. They get +1 to hit and have -1 rend in addition. Bonekutta has 1 less attack but gets +1 damage and -1 rend. Gurzag has a mental 5 attacks, 3+/3+/1/1. He's strictly better than a prenerf Ardboys boss. The real icing on the top though is the unit wide 6+ ward save which goes to 5+ for Gurzag. Sure you lose a model and 2 wounds but they are even 5 points cheaper than standard ardboys!

 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

Yeah you'll just have to deal with having all your arti in combat with goregruntas thus unable to ever shoot the MKs.

I still doubt that.

I’m not one of those non horde skaven player.

u

nless your goregruntas can kill a min. Of 120 clanrats in the onion formation, there’s a high chance you’ll never see those cannons destroyed in a single turn, by your hands (in a more rule focused way, so please don’t think of smashing my warplightning cannons to bitz!?)

Edited September 18, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[DeadpoolNakago]

Toying with a Big Waaagh! alpha strike type of army. 

The idea being the one drop gets me the first turn. The Killaboss gets the Gutrippaz redeployed 9" away from enemies before the first movement phase. They get their movement phase movement, still. The Megaboss uses bellow with mighty detroyers to get him and the Gore-gruntas into the fight ASAP. The Megaboss can also try and fling the Brutes 9" away for a long charge, too or put them someplace for an objective or fling the Killbow if needed. 

THE LIST!

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Killaboss with Stab-grot (140)*
- General
- Command Trait: Supa Sneaky
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)*
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
- Universal Spell Lore: Great Green Hand of Gork
30 x Gutrippaz (540)*
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Orruk Brutes (160)*
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
Beast-skewer Killbow (130)*

*Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Drops: 1

 

[Carnith]

No warchanter? Bold of you to leave 2 waaaagh points on the table. I think you have to sneak a wardok in too. d6+3 is preferable to just a straight d6. 

[DeadpoolNakago]

10 minutes ago, Carnith said:

No warchanter? Bold of you to leave 2 waaaagh points on the table. I think you have to sneak a wardok in too. d6+3 is preferable to just a straight d6. 

Indeed. I could definitely sub the kill bow out for the warchanter. 

That said, too, im looking at first turn juicing my waaagh points atm with;

'Ere we go! for 1 (on a 2+)
D6
Most likely +4 on charges (Krusha, Gruntas, and Rippaz)
Whatever's left in fighting for points there. 

I'm honestly probably looking at having 6-7 points w/o chanter turn 1

Granted with chanter, i get the 2 points, and (in magic xmas land) I can fling Brutes with Megaboss, then use 3d6 charge beat if I get the 3+, plus chanter'll get violent fury

[DeadpoolNakago]

Also, alternative; Swampcalla Shaman instead of Warchanter, fling shaman, then give the 30 rippas a 5+ venom encrusted weapons LOL

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

I first started playing Warhammer in The Old World with Orcs and Goblins, and the old Black Orcs/current 'Ardboyz kit has a tonne of nostalgia attached to it for me, as well as the concept of the black orcs in general.

What I'm trying to say is, I'd really like to see Ironjawz get a more-elite version of 'Ardboyz, or something like that. Lean into some Old World black orcs disciplined-professional, march-in-ranks-with-banners-and-drummers vibes! I'm not talking Brutes, who are described as being about smashin' and finding da biggest enemy on the battlefield, and certainly don't have banners or musicians or any real semblance of discipline. This is more like an updated, bigger 'Ardboy model that more-closely matches the Ironjawz aesthetic.

And to clarify again:

- Not Brutes. Again, Brutes are an undisciplined bunch of brutal destroyers - the iconic one-note "smash everything" Ironjaw. They don't have a real sense of unit cohesion, discipline, or banners and drummers.

- Not Kruleboyz. Kruleboyz are, so far, lightly-armored skirmishers and ambush raiders. They lack the "professional" vibe of the old black orcs.

This would be a new unit and a new addition to the lore, saying "look, a lot of 'Ardboyz love to smash and become Brutes as they grow. Others are more complex as individuals, and take pride in their discipline, their gear, and the bonds they've forged with their mates." It adds a new facet to the Ironjawz as the most well-equipped Orruks, as well as Orruks as individuals with their own personalities, without detracting from the Ironjawz' emphasis on resiliance through the heaviest armor and weapons or the "there is only the Waaaagh!" vibe of Orruks in general.

Each unit carries their banner with pride and attaches trophies of the units they've slain to it. They use drummers to keep a beat because they know it works to make them stronger and better at fighting by keeping them marching together. In battle they're watching out for their mates and working as something like a cohesive whole. Their kit may be beaten, but it's always well-kept and maintained as a matter of pride - and these Orruks takes something akin to professional pride in their work not just as fighters, but as soldiers. The Ironsunz, with all their "clever taktiks," would love these guys. These fighters might be able to appreciate the fighting of different Orruks even if they look down on them ("swampy boyz can't hold da line in a good fight, and doze painty boyz freek me out").

Their bosses would even care about things like supplies and logistics as part of keeping a good Waaagh! going for as long as possible. For example, where other Warbosses would look down on a contingent of Grots tagging along, these Warbosses would recognise the Grots' usefulness as a self-propelled food supply. A perfect combo of Kunnin' and Brutal!

Dunno, would be a nice detail to add onto the standard "what if orruks... but with armor!" Add some nuance to the Ironjawz, you know?

Edited September 19, 2021 by acr0ssth3p0nd

[Malakree]

32 minutes ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

I first started playing Warhammer in The Old World with Orcs and Goblins, and the old Black Orcs/current 'Ardboyz kit has a tonne of nostalgia attached to it for me, as well as the concept of the black orcs in general.

What I'm trying to say is, I'd really like to see Ironjawz get a more-elite version of 'Ardboyz, or something like that. Lean into some Old World black orcs disciplined-professional, march-in-ranks-with-banners-and-drummers vibes! I'm not talking Brutes, who are described as being about smashin' and finding da biggest enemy on the battlefield, and certainly don't have banners or musicians or any real semblance of discipline. This is more like an updated, bigger 'Ardboy model that more-closely matches the Ironjawz aesthetic.

Each unit carries their banner with pride and attaches trophies of the units they've slain to it. They use drummers to keep a beat because they know it works to make them stronger and better at fighting by keeping them marching together. In battle they're watching out for their mates and working as something like a cohesive whole. Their kit may be beaten, but it's always well-kept and maintained as a matter of pride - and these Orruks takes something akin to professional pride in their work not just as fighters, but as soldiers. The Ironsunz, with all their "clever taktiks," would love these guys.

Their bosses would even care about things like supplies and logistics as part of keeping a good Waaagh! going for as long as possible. For example, where other Warbosses would look down on a contingent of Grots tagging along, these Warbosses would recognise the Grots' usefulness as a self-propelled food supply. A perfect combo of Kunnin' and Brutal!

Dunno, would be a nice detail to add onto the standard "what if orruks... but with armor!" Add some nuance to the Ironjawz, you know?

Problem is thats not really consistent the ironjawz lore. Orruks get bigger and stronger as they flight and win, so the ardboys are aspirants to become brutes.

What you're describing is the Kruleboyz.

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

32 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Problem is thats not really consistent the ironjawz lore. Orruks get bigger and stronger as they flight and win, so the ardboys are aspirants to become brutes.

What you're describing is the Kruleboyz.

No, I'm not. I'm describing a new unit for the Ironjawz. Something heavily-armored and all about open warfare, but disciplined about it to the point of professionalism.

Is it really so difficult to imagine "Hey, these 'Ardboyz won a bunch of fights and decided to refine what they were doing to become even better at it," as something that a number of Orruks might do, especially in the context of the legacy of the Black Orcs, Age of Sigmar's propensity for doing things a bit different, and Games Workshop's general "eh, is it cool? Then do it and retcon the lore a bit" attitude? It's a bit one-note and dull to say "every 'Ardboy wants this," and I thought the Ironjawz playerbase (and Destruction in general) was kinda feeling "We want more unit options and to be less one-note smash-everything."

Edited September 19, 2021 by acr0ssth3p0nd

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

46 minutes ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

No, I'm not. I'm describing a new unit for the Ironjawz. Something heavily-armored and all about open warfare, but disciplined about it to the point of professionalism.

Is it really so difficult to imagine "Hey, these 'Ardboyz won a bunch of fights and decided to refine what they were doing to become even better at it," as something that a number of Orruks might do, especially in the context of the legacy of the Black Orcs, Age of Sigmar's propensity for doing things a bit different, and Games Workshop's general "eh, is it cool? Then do it and retcon the lore a bit" attitude? It's a bit one-note and dull to say "every 'Ardboy wants this," and I thought the Ironjawz playerbase (and Destruction in general) was kinda feeling "We want more unit options and to be less one-note smash-everything."

I don't know if the lore has changed, but Ironjawz don't really like Ardboyz that much, they do too much mukkin about, and whilst I agree and want more organised Brutes, that's not what they are about.

Ardboyz just get drawn to the conflicts that the Ironjawz create and if standard greenskins still existed as an army they would be perfect (as they were originally) in that army. I've never really liked Ardboyz in Ironjawz and refuse to use them in the army itself. The models don't suit the general aesthetic neither does the Ironskulls kit. 

There was a story ages ago with a Destroyer type Brute unit, with huge tower shields and warhammers, but I guess Ironjawz and Bonesplitters have just been forgotten about! Unless you count underworld kits and the 1 warhammer+ model. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Ekrund Oath Splitters

[dnusha]

13 hours ago, DeadpoolNakago said:

Also, alternative; Swampcalla Shaman instead of Warchanter, fling shaman, then give the 30 rippas a 5+ venom encrusted weapons LOL

Swampcalla Shaman won't get you 2 waagh points per turn (thought you picked a warchanter for that reason) and you have to be in 3' with model from a unit you are about to buff. Also Unit can't recieve that buff if there is an enemy unit in 3' from shaman or that unit. Which means if you want to charge with that unit you probably won't be able to buff it anymore after that turn.(unit is going to be too far away or too close to enemy units). Also you would have to be very careful about enemy units that can charge first (including in other phases) (otherwise you would have to buff out of combat gutrippers every turn and waste shaman casting in hero phase). You are going all out MW you probably would want to add a Snatcha Boss (315-320 more points) (or even an additional on-foot boss to prevent rippas from running in battleshock phase with their low(5-6) bravery). But the elephant in the room is their bases. Rippas are on 0.32cm bases. which means even with 2' weapons only 10(and sometimes even less) out of 30 will be able to fight. Is it worth 560+110 points (+315 snatchaboss+110/170BraveryBoss) I don't think so. I'm not even sure why use rippas in Big Waagh if you can pick other very viable battleline options.

 

33mm coherency pic.

Edited September 19, 2021 by dnusha

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

32 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

I don't know if the lore has changed, but Ironjawz don't really like Ardboyz that much, they do too much mukkin about, and whilst I agree and want more organised Brutes, that's not what they are about.

Ardboyz just get drawn to the conflicts that the Ironjawz create and if standard greenskins still existed as an army they would be perfect (as they were originally) in that army. I've never really liked Ardboyz in Ironjawz and refuse to use them in the army itself. The models don't suit the general aesthetic neither does the Ironskulls kit. 

There was a story ages ago with a Destroyer type Brute unit, with huge tower shields and warhammers, but I guess Ironjawz and Bonesplitters have just been forgotten about! Unless you count underworld kits and the 1 warhammer+ model. 

My thinking is the lore can change and a new kit could fit the aesthetic better. And heck, that alternate take on Brutes you mentioned could work just as well! Give them a trophy-laden banner, a giant effin' drum, and huge spikey tower shields that they can use as bashin' weapons, and that's basically what I'm pitching - powerful Ironjawz Brutez with a higher sense of in-unit camaraderie and longer-term finkin'.

You don't have to personally like or use them, but there's a space for expansion within the Ironjawz as a broader super-culture that adds the variety and nuance that many fans have been asking for in Ironjawz and Destruction as factions. There's an entire space for "culture clash" within the Ironjawz regarding the "mukkin' about" and how different clanz feel about it - again, more nuanced and less one-note.

Besides, lots of people don't like the "Cows" aspect of Lumineth (including me), but there's options for them to run the army without them and I don't equate my not liking them with it not working for the faction as a whole. I don't see why that can't be the same for Ironjawz! 

Edited September 19, 2021 by acr0ssth3p0nd

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

15 minutes ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

And again, my point is that the lore can change and a new kit could fit the aesthetic better. And heck, that alternate take on Brutes you mentioned could work just as well! Give them a trophy-laden banner, a giant effin' drum, and huge spikey tower shields that they can use as bashin' weapons, and that's basically what I'm pitching.

You don't have to personally like or use them, but there's a space for expansion within the Ironjawz as a broader super-culture that adds the variety and nuance that many fans have been asking for in Ironjawz and Destruction as factions. There's an entire space for "culture clash" within the Ironjawz regarding the "mukkin' about" and how different clanz feel about it - again, more nuanced and less one-note.

Besides, lots of people don't like the "Cows" aspect of Lumineth (including me), but there's options for them to run the army without them and I don't equate my not liking them with it not working for the faction as a whole. I don't see why that can't be the same for Ironjawz! 

Something has got to be done about Ardboyz anyway eventually they show their age pretty bad, can't remember if they came out during 6th or 8th ed fantasy but at some point they will need refreshing and updating.

What I'd like to see personally is them becoming Destruction "mecenaries". Give them a new unit called Ardboy Big 'Unz, update the old ones, make a return of the ol' Big Boss as a hero who is armed to the literal teef with a weapon for any occasion and given them armoured Boarz (I loved the Boarboy kit).

That way they keep their regimented look let's ironjawz have units that more fits their style and attitude. When I first started IJ it was when AoS first came out and I loved them but they got boring rather fast. I don't really get why GW aren't adding more to them, fyrslayers and other older armies like bloodbound.

Now with kruleboyz I can add in some beasts of burden, siege engines and crossbows to my IJs so they feel massively different.

[dnusha]

3 hours ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

 Black Orcs/current 'Ardboyz discussion

I'm with you on this anon. I loved Black Orks, love the current model, banner, drummer, old lore, new warband etc but i don't really think GW gonna go this way. Current ardboyz fit into this 'gork smash' aesthetics of ironjaws and their armored fist. Unit that once was strong in FB now serves as a battleline - this kinda emphasizes how strong and brutal ironjaws and their new megabosses are. I actually would love to see more armor(and other details) on Brutes and other units as well and it seems like GW maybe going that way (chainmail stuff and other small details on new wh+ boss, more details on WH underworlds band of brutes). I don't think we gonna see new IJ units anytime soon (years). GW would rather make something entirely new because customers want novelty and excitement. We maybe gonna get some limited model or a warband or new ardboyz at best (15 years to plastic black orks in 2022). And truth to be told, i don't really mind, army kinda works like intended, it goes forward and smashes things.

Edited September 19, 2021 by dnusha

[DeadpoolNakago]

4 hours ago, dnusha said:

Swampcalla Shaman won't get you 2 waagh points per turn (thought you picked a warchanter for that reason) and you have to be in 3' with model from a unit you are about to buff. Also Unit can't recieve that buff if there is an enemy unit in 3' from shaman or that unit. Which means if you want to charge with that unit you probably won't be able to buff it anymore after that turn.(unit is going to be too far away or too close to enemy units). Also you would have to be very careful about enemy units that can charge first (including in other phases) (otherwise you would have to buff out of combat gutrippers every turn and waste shaman casting in hero phase). You are going all out MW you probably would want to add a Snatcha Boss (315-320 more points) (or even an additional on-foot boss to prevent rippas from running in battleshock phase with their low(5-6) bravery). But the elephant in the room is their bases. Rippas are on 0.32cm bases. which means even with 2' weapons only 10(and sometimes even less) out of 30 will be able to fight. Is it worth 560+110 points (+315 snatchaboss+110/170BraveryBoss) I don't think so. I'm not even sure why use rippas in Big Waagh if you can pick other very viable battleline options.

Well the shaman gambit doesnt work anyway because if I was using Supa Sneaky to put the Gutrippaz 9" out from enemy, Shaman has to use poisons at start of hero phase, which means I couldnt fling him with Great Green Hand to up poison on the gutrippaz. SO, back to chanter lol

As for coherency, I get that. I gotta be no more than 2 deep, and with 30 thats 15 across, 2 deep. 

The parameters I wanna work with are that: I want to do everything in one drop, and I want the most units into enemy territory by the end of my first turn. I could go outside one drop and get more flexibility. For now though, with those parameters, I see really two builds: 

Allegiance: IJ Bloodtoof
Cabbage; Command trait - Megabossy
4 units of goregruntas
Megaboss

That leaves me at most 1 HERO less than 10 wounds, 1 Troops, and 1 Artillery to fill the rest of the army out. Maybe I get a Weirdnob or Arcane tome, cast great green hand and/or get screaming bridge, but that gets me just 9" from enemy needing a 9" charge. But I get a good 5 units charging wholly into enemy territory at least between Cabbage and Gruntas. 

The Big Waaaagh version of this i see is 

Allegiance: Big Waaagh
Cabbage
2 units of Gore Gruntas
Killaboss; Command Trait - Supa Sneaky
1 unit Gutrippaz

That leaves me needing 2 battleline, 1 HERO less than 10 wounds, and 1 artillery left to play with. At the moment I have 4 units charging fairly reliably into enemy territory turn 1. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by DeadpoolNakago

[Kasper]

Picked up the book today at my local shop and after looking through the battletome for the Ironjawz I came up with this. 

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired (+1 wound Triumph)

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Mighty Waaagh! Leader (Reroll charges with Waagh activated)
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un (D6 instead of D3 MW on Stomp)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Destroyer (+3 damage once a battle)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un (Move in hero phase once a battle)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)

Units
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1950 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Drops: 10

So the idea is to go for double Warlord to have two decked out Maw Krushas, one for artefact and another for mount trait. I thought about giving a Warchanter the Arcane Tome to cast Mystic Shield for a 2+ Maw Krusha. One for survivability, which is obviously the general, and the other a rather killy boy that can activate his Destroyer artefact when you really need to put a dent into something. The damage of a Maw Krusha with Destroyer, Waagh, Violet Fury, Best Day Ever and All-out Attack activated is insane.. It's almost 40 damage vs a 3+ save target. Even against a 3+ target with rerolling saves he's doing close to 30 damage. He will be a real threat to Archaon or other tanky monsters. This is before shooting and Stomping taken into account (obv cant Stomp other monsters). 

 

Plan was to try and teleport the Piggies 12,5" away, move the Maw Krusha up with Fast'Un and then activate Mighty Destroyers on the Piggies and the 2 Maw Krushas. With +1 charge and rerolling charges from Waagh activated, you should hopefully ram all 3 units into the opponent. Each being buffed by a Warchanter before doing this. Alternatively you can attempt to charge with the Piggies using Mighty Destroyers to prevent Redeploys or Unleash Hell, depending on your opponent. 

 

Most people dont run a lot of screens in this edition and they are typically 10 one-wound model units. Between 2x shooting attacks from the Maw Krushas, the impacts from the Piggies and the single Maw Krusha doing D6+4 MWs on Stomping (bonus points if you get to move D6 and do another!) you can likely cut a path to the juicy bits.

 

Its probably not worth running 3 Warchanters, but I wanted to play around with the "give 3 commands abilities at once" hence 2x Maw Krushas and 1 fat unit of Piggies, all buffed with Warchanters, Mighty Destroyers and then potentially All-out Attack.  

[Carnith]

Played vs new stormcast. I misplayed on the turn I waaagh by not full commiting the army and getting destroyed by Stormcast Fulminators. It ended up being a costly mistake as my maw Krusha couldn't be a part of the game when I needed him to be. Lesson learned. 

[Carnith]

Kicking myself right now. I completely forgot I was Ironsuns. When he kept retreating out of combat, I could've just charged back in. I used to plan Clanless, so I'm chalking it up to not being familiar with an ability that I can now do. He intentially left my maw krusha alone, and I could've charged back in and smashed them again. A second lesson learned. 

[Kasper]

3 hours ago, Carnith said:

Kicking myself right now. I completely forgot I was Ironsuns. When he kept retreating out of combat, I could've just charged back in. I used to plan Clanless, so I'm chalking it up to not being familiar with an ability that I can now do. He intentially left my maw krusha alone, and I could've charged back in and smashed them again. A second lesson learned. 

Yeah the Ironsunz charge ability feels so good. Not only is it rather unique so its something people are not used to in their mindset when doing their charges or even just moving around your models, but it also ensures your heavy hitters are purposely left out of combat. 

[Warfiend]

Had this idea today:

probably not gonna convert this anytime soon due to my backlog but depending on whether or not it would fit it could be an amazing conversion imo.

[Tizianolol]

Guys can I use magaboss ability to give a command ability to 2 of my units on himself and another unit? Or they must be another unit? Thx a lot and sorry for bad english:)

[Malakree]

55 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys can I use magaboss ability to give a command ability to 2 of my units on himself and another unit? Or they must be another unit? Thx a lot and sorry for bad english:)

A unit can issue a command ability to themselves. It just says when you use it you can also trigger it on a second unit.

So yes you can issue it to the MB and another unit.