AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Kasper]

Been toying around with a new list based on what we have seen from reviews.

• Gordrakk (540 pts) - Looking at Stormcast, you should be able to select a mount-trait for a named character. Mean 'un for +1 on fists/tail or Weird 'un for 4+ to ignore spells/endless spells.
• Warchanter (110 pts) - Fixa Beat to heal Gordrakk d3 wounds.
• Warchanter (110 pts) - Killa Beat maybe? Not sure if he can keep up and get close enough to debuff an enemy unit.
• 5x 5 Ardboyz (450 pts) - For the Ardfist batallion - Screen/tarpit and all around grind the enemy.
• 2x Gore Gruntas (320 pts) - Spears for +1/1 on the charge. This with +1 damage from Warchanter is gonna be beast.
• Brutes (140 pts) - Because I don't really know what else to select to maximize pts.
• Ironfist batallion (160 pts) - 1 free Mighty Destroyers per turn, will free up CP for Ardfist
• Ardfist batallion (120 pts) - Sounds sick to get 10 boys back on a 4+
• 1 CP (50 pts)

= 2.000 pts.

 

Would probably run it as Bloodtoofs. My issue is that I'm wasting 1 artefact and if I want Big Waaagh, I really want 3 Warchanters.

With all the little Ardboyz units, you should be able to get +2 attacks quite easily from the Waaagh IJ alligiance CA.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Kasper

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

But they can get a pretty damn useful ca, the choppas.

[Aelfric]

Does anyone have details about allies, esp for The Big Waaagh?  Wondering if the Greenskin Warboss with banner is still usable as he still has valid points.

[Kasper]

54 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Does anyone have details about allies, esp for The Big Waaagh?  Wondering if the Greenskin Warboss with banner is still usable as he still has valid points.

I believe they mentioned in the twitch preview that Greenskins are going legends, so in matched play he wont be viable. He would also invalidate their change to our new Waaagh ability, so it makes sense you cant cheese it.

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

I believe they mentioned in the twitch preview that Greenskins are going legends, so in matched play he wont be viable. He would also invalidate their change to our new Waaagh ability, so it makes sense you cant cheese it.

Oh well another model bites the dust.  I think I may go through all my old metal orcs and pick out the more armoured ones and re-base them as Ardboyz.  That way i can keep my standard ones in a block of 20 and have some visual variety for the smaller units.  Ardboyz have to start somewhere, after all.  It helps that it doesn't matter what weapons they are carrying.  Also means that I can build up my Brutes collection as i only have 5 painted.

[Seihoff]

Reading the new warscrolls... can we put the 2 shields per 5 models of the ardboyz to the boss/banner/drummer? I can't find anything on the scroll that don't allow us to do it.

[broche]

9 hours ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

I find your stance against ardboyz worrysome, such a hatred.

My stance against ardboyz? Were do you get that from?

 

9 hours ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

And again, that math is because the inflation of ardboyz. Match the 2019 pricing and you find that the difference is nil.

We are still in 2019 BTW. I don't live in the past. We get new warscroll with new point value, that what i'm checking. I don't get why you would rate new warscroll with old point, that make absolutly zero sense. Why not play with GHB 2017 points while you're there?

[Wazzuli]

You can I believe,  but once you fail a shield save they have to take the wound and any after it so you'll lose those faster if you start there first kinda thing.

[Kasper]

So in a 5 man unit of Ardboyz, you can have

1. Leader
2. Gorkamorka banner
3. Gorkamorka glyph
4. Drummer
5. Normal dude with shield

I guess you can give the glyph guy a shield too, right? According to the rules the command squad has whatever loadout you desire afaik.

[Scurvydog]

12 minutes ago, Kasper said:

So in a 5 man unit of Ardboyz, you can have

1. Leader
2. Gorkamorka banner
3. Gorkamorka glyph
4. Drummer
5. Normal dude with shield

I guess you can give the glyph guy a shield too, right? According to the rules the command squad has whatever loadout you desire afaik.

No 1 in 5 can carry either a banner or glyph, you can only have both in a 10 man group or more

[Malakree]

So after sleeping on it I've got a few thoughts, comments and ideas for/on the new book.

Units

• Gordrakk is the closest thing to a living saint that Ironjawz have. He's amazing.
• Cabbage is alright, big thing is you want one to be your Ironsunz general.
• Footboss is super niche. Use him to be an Ironsunz general with Gordrakk or carry the Destroyer Artefact.
• Warchanters are the backbone of any Ironjawz army. Minimum 1.
• Weirdnob Brutal Power actually makes him a lot better than he looks. Importantly you can use it on MULTIPLE Weirdnobs. This has tons of utility.
• Goregruntas have exactly the same role they always did, just got slightly better but cost 20 points more.
• Ardboys became so much better. As 5s they are now incredibly versatile with amazing warscrolls.
• Brutes are your primary damage output unit just due to the points difference between them and Ardboys

Abilities/Traits/Artefacts

• Ironjawz Waaagh! sucks, it sucks so so bad. Probably not worth wasting a CP on 90% of the time. I take it back, see below!
• IMO none of the Traits are worth not taking Ironsunz
• IMO none of the Artefacts are worth not taking Ironsunz
• Aetherquartz remains just as mandatory as ever, if not more so....
• If you choose not to take a Warclan or are playing Da Big Waaagh! Ironclad+Destroyer is the way to go.
• All the Warbeats are good.
• Lore of the Weird has some pretty cool spells with a good range of utility.
• Brain-Busta and Mighty-Eadbut are the two bad spells.
• Mean 'Un is the only Mount Trait worth it

Clans

• Ironsunz is just unbelievable. The CA, Trait and Artefact are all top tier and the ability is far from terrible.
• Da Choppas. Is strange, I think it has some utility but it's not amazing.
• Bloodtoofs sucks. The ability and CA are both weak and situational, trait is meh. At least the artefact is nice.

Battalions

• Weirdfist is bad, just take a second Weirdnob instead.
• Gorefist is pretty mediocre, we just don't need it and they aren't good enough to justify it. Just take an Ironfist instead, for 30 points it's way better.
• Ironfist is still solid, lost some of it's speed but gained more utility/power.
• Ardfist is great. for 680 points you get a free CP and Aetherquartz plus the ability to turn your unit of 5 Ardboys into a unit of 10.
• Brutefist is interesting with some cool build potentials. Gives you a great source of MW from the Impact hits.

Allies

• Take that Wurrgog Prophet and love him. Generates Command Points. Also a 2 cast wizard with a good personal spell.
• Fungoid Cave-Shaman. Generates Command Points see a pattern here? Also a wizard with a 4++ save who can cast twice once per game.

Da Big Waaagh! Allegiance

This is where it gets interesting. All of the above is based on the Ironjawz. However it almost all applies to Da Big Waaagh! aswell. This lets you take the same build but have it play differently based just based on switching allegiances. Going to highlight some key differences.

• Gordrakk gets even better.
• Those sweet Wurrgog Prophets are no longer Allies and can take aretefacts/spells from the bonesplitterz lore!
• Gorkamorka's War Cry is an easy addition. Use it to dumpster people.
• Ardboys now need to be 10s in order to be Battleline this synergises well with your Waaagh Power however so isn't that painful.
• Being able to get the Bonesplitterz 6++ save is so good. Finally a MW save for Ironjawz.
• The stacking bonuses are SOOO good.
• Gives you a Waaagh! which doesn't suck ass.

Interesting "Detachment" and list Ideas

The Ardfist Detachment. A hyper efficient way to get units for screening, zoning and objective holding. You should ALWAYS have at least 1 Warchanter in your army anyway so you're spending 570 points for a CP, Artefact *cough* Aetherquartz *cough* and 5 units of 5 Ardboyswhich you can potentially cycle into 10 more on a board edge with a CP. Combines so well with the Ironsunz it's unreal. Spend a CP to charge in your opponents charge phase, massively hosing their ability to choose engagements then, when they inevitably kill it spend another to potentially get a free unit of 10 Ardboyswhich can come on along any board edge forcing them to screen against it.

Quote

Ardfist Detachment - 680 points.

Orruk Warchanter (110)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Ardfist (120)

 

Other one which looks cool is the Brutefist List. Again combines fantastically with Ironsunz letting you charge at the start of the opponents command phase. If the Ardfist is the hyper efficient CP intensive way to do it, this instead focuses on CP efficiency at the cost of potentially drowning your opponent under Ardboys. Looks somewhat similar and is focuses around the MW output. Whats really cool about this is not only can you charge in your opponents charge phase, you can also charge in your HERO phase using Mighty Destroyers. You can then do it AGAIN in your charge phase if you've managed to get them out of combat in the intervening time. With the Brutes points drop you can now put some serious meat down to dish out the MW, if you do it correctly you could even setup your cabbage to go on a rampage and chain through multiple units with it. Going to be VERY tricky to use but super interesting.

This is a crazy amount of MW potential outside of the combat phase and makes your brutes better than the old cabbage!

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Warclan: Ironsunz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Command Trait: Right Hand of Dakkabad
- Artefact: Sunblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Broach

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)

Battalions
Brute Fist (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 124

 

Lastly is a slightly more...Weirdlist. This is intresting because it potentially works better in Da Big Waaagh! than in the Ironjawz allegiance. One of the reasons I'm listing it here to show how freaky some of the options can be. You're using all the power of the Ardfist but also throwing in 3 Weirdnobs. That on it's own is 3 spells from the lore and with 4 solid options that's pretty nice. More importantly you're getting 3 free Green Pukes in your hero phase. This means you can, at the cost of d3 mortals, get a free d6 move in your hero phase early on. Then later you're puking all over your opponents!

Quote

Allegiance: Da Big Waaagh!

Leaders
Gordrakk Fist of Gork (540)
Weirdnob (110)
Weirdnob (110)
Weirdnob (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 140

 

EDIT: For anyone wondering this is the list I'm going to start with to test out the new book. Mainly because of model and points restrictions.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Warclan: Ironsunz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Command Trait: Right Hand of Dakkabad
- Artefact: Sunblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Gordrakk Fist of Gork (540)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Broach

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
3 x Gore-Gruntas (160)
3 x Gore-Gruntas (160)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 140

Guna take it to club next Sunday so will see.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Malakree

[Scurvydog]

@MalakreeIronjawz Whaagh is not bad like I first thought due to looking at it wrong, it still is 100% sure to get 1 attack to everyone within 18", it is still a fantastic command ability you will want to use every game, even if it is only once. It can now also be used in any combat phase as well. This meshes with warchanters +1 dmg which works until next hero phase, so you are just as dangerous to charge now, while before we were mild lambs in the opponents combat phases.

The base command traits are amazing, Brutush Cunning is 1 free might destroyers each battle round, how can you call the ironsunz 1 CP trait top tier, while saying this is bad? This should basically be 1 CP per turn. Add Ironclad to the list, having a 2+ save mawkrusha is a hell of a lot more terrifying.

I will agree the Ironsunz command ability can be nice to have, as it gives more defensive options, but still situational and the -1 to hit in the first round can easily end up being near pointless. 

Choppas warclan has the most interesting command ability, although it can not be used on gore gruntas, which is the missiles I plan to use with warchanters... but still good. The artifact is horrible, but in many cases they wil get rerolls to charge and rather easy access to +2 bravery aura from forced trait at least. This should be the weirdnob clan, but you will be unable to take the trait and artifacts which could make the weirdnob actually good, sad.

I have little doubt the strongest 2k lists will be great whaagh lists, with Gordrakk and at least 2 warchanters, with Ironfist being the common battalion which is more or less a free CP each round and should be useable even though you are not Ironjawz allegiance. Grab a weirdnob too, give him visions artifact and green hand to be able to teleport units. Give a chanter the other artifact with the brooch. After that a healthy mix of units I feel would be best, I would never not take Gruntas.

 

 

 

[Warmill]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

EDIT: For anyone wondering this is the list I'm going to start with to test out the new book. Mainly because of model and points restrictions.

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Warclan: Ironsunz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Command Trait: Right Hand of Dakkabad
- Artefact: Sunblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Gordrakk Fist of Gork (540)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Broach

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
3 x Gore-Gruntas (160)
3 x Gore-Gruntas (160)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 140

Guna take it to club next Sunday so will see.

You'll need to condense 2 of those ardboyz units won't you? Arent they only battleline in groups of 10?

[Malakree]

29 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

@MalakreeIronjawz Whaagh is not bad like I first thought due to looking at it wrong, it still is 100% sure to get 1 attack to everyone within 18", it is still a fantastic command ability you will want to use every game, even if it is only once. It can now also be used in any combat phase as well. This meshes with warchanters +1 dmg which works until next hero phase, so you are just as dangerous to charge now, while before we were mild lambs in the opponents combat phases.

Clarification, is it 11- or 11.
If it's 11 or less then I retract my statement of it being bad. 

29 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

The base command traits are amazing, Brutush Cunning is 1 free might destroyers each battle round, how can you call the ironsunz 1 CP trait top tier, while saying this is bad? This should basically be 1 CP per turn. Add Ironclad to the list, having a 2+ save mawkrusha is a hell of a lot more terrifying.

You're misrepresenting what I said, to quote.

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

• IMO none of the Traits are worth not taking Ironsunz
• IMO none of the Artefacts are worth not taking Ironsunz

I'm NOT saying they are bad. I'm saying that Ironsunz is so amazing that it out performs any trait/artefact combo.

The Command Ability is so unbelievably good I struggle to properly explain it. Utility, threat potential, mobility...it literally gives you everything and synergies so well with the rest of the army. The +1 CP is just good as you pointed out, hence it being a top tier choice, while the artefact is the old Ironclad, that command trait which was mandatory for the entire of GBH2018. Against the vast majority of of stuff which we care about Sunblessed Armour is the same as the new Ironclad. A random -1 to hit for the entire of the first battleround is just a nice to have in the face of all that.

Oh and as a side note. With Aetherquartz Broach a free CA =/= a free CP.

29 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Choppas warclan has the most interesting command ability, although it can not be used on gore gruntas, which is the missiles I plan to use with warchanters... but still good. The artifact is horrible, but in many cases they wil get rerolls to charge and rather easy access to +2 bravery aura from forced trait at least. This should be the weirdnob clan, but you will be unable to take the trait and artifacts which could make the weirdnob actually good, sad.

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Da Choppas. Is strange, I think it has some utility but it's not amazing.

Basically what I said in short hand form  

29 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

I have little doubt the strongest 2k lists will be great whaagh lists, with Gordrakk and at least 2 warchanters, with Ironfist being the common battalion which is more or less a free CP each round and should be useable even though you are not Ironjawz allegiance. Grab a weirdnob too, give him visions artifact and green hand to be able to teleport units. Give a chanter the other artifact with the brooch. After that a healthy mix of units I feel would be best, I would never not take Gruntas.

Not 100% sure I agree. I think there is just way to many variables to actually make any sort of call right now. Losing smashing and bashing and Mighty Destroyers is way more painful than I think you're giving it credit for, since GBH 2019 I've found that I'm regularly using 3+ Mighty Destroyers on the turns which matter, without the Waaagh! drain anymore that's only going to go up.

So yeah. Have you got the rules clarification on the Waaagh! I might have the wrong info.

 

EDIT:

6 minutes ago, Warmill said:

You'll need to condense 2 of those ardboyz units won't you? Arent they only battleline in groups of 10?

I believe that they are battleline for Ironjawz. Then Battleline for The Big Waaagh! if they have 10 or more models? If it is 10 or more then yeah I'll condense 2 units to a unit of 10  

Edited September 29, 2019 by Malakree

[broche]

good summary @Malakree

I must say i'll need to have the book to overview the possibility. I like Ironsunz, but I like Ironclad and Prophet as well. Mean'un is the +1 damage I guess?  

I think a defensive Mawkrusha (Ironclad + ignax scale for exemple) could be usefull. Assuming mystic shield he can survive more than 30 damage at rend 2 or from mortal. Combine with the fact that he will now gain a life each turn, and you can potentially heal it with Warchanter he can become really hard to kill.

On a side note, I just realized that Grunta rider now have 4 base attack. They are truly amazing now.

What is the exact wording of Ardfist now? I checked the video again but could'nt read the exact word?

Edited September 29, 2019 by broche

[Kasper]

32 minutes ago, broche said:

What is the exact wording of Ardfist now? I checked the video again but could'nt read the exact word?

I don't remember the exact wording, but it is basically like this:

When an Ardboyz unit from the batallion is destroyed, you can spend a CP and on a 4+ you setup and add a new unit of 10 boys to the batallion at a table edge.

The keyword here is that the unit is added to the batallion, so you could keep this going for a longer game. I realize most IJ players are used to the hurr durr turn 1 charge all-in, but I think this could open up for longer games in the Big Waaagh alligiance.

 

Edit: Also the Waaagh ability says you get +1 attack, but if you get 12 you get +2 attacks. You can't fail this - You will ALWAYS get at least +1 attack. This might not seem like a lot, but on a unit of Ardboyz where their damage is doubled, just 1 extra attack per model is quite big.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Kasper

[broche]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

Gorefist is pretty mediocre, we just don't need it and they aren't good enough to justify it. Just take an Ironfist instead, for 30 points it's way better.

I'm not so sure of that. Let's take this list: Gordrack, 1 x 6 pig, 2 x 3 pig, 3 Warchanter, Gorefist (1650 pts). Fill in with some Brutes/Ardboys, or more Pig if you have the model.  Take Ironsunz. Turn 1 charge with 12 pig with Gordrack command + warchanter buff for around 100 damages (130 with waaagh).  Score point while opponent deal with your 12 -1 to hit pig. Doesn't sound like a bad strategy. 

One more cool thing, they specified Live to fight working on the rider and the mount. You can really build a suicide bomb Mawkrusha!!!

[Scurvydog]

18 minutes ago, broche said:

I'm not so sure of that. Let's take this list: Gordrack, 1 x 6 pig, 2 x 3 pig, 3 Warchanter, Gorefist (1650 pts). Fill in with some Brutes/Ardboys, or more Pig if you have the model.  Take Ironsunz. Turn 1 charge with 12 pig with Gordrack command + warchanter buff for around 100 damages (130 with waaagh).  Score point while opponent deal with your 12 -1 to hit pig. Doesn't sound like a bad strategy. 

One more cool thing, they specified Live to fight working on the rider and the mount. You can really build a suicide bomb Mawkrusha!!!

Yea that list will run over someone somewhere for sure. Quite one note, but just 3 gruntas charging in with a warchanter buff is a threat to anything and against a unit of 6 with hackas who get a good charge, just about anything will die from that. Only real problem will be to get the rest of the army to catch up, if they need to...

[Kasper]

51 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Yea that list will run over someone somewhere for sure. Quite one note, but just 3 gruntas charging in with a warchanter buff is a threat to anything and against a unit of 6 with hackas who get a good charge, just about anything will die from that. Only real problem will be to get the rest of the army to catch up, if they need to...

What are you gonna do when the enemy screens their important stuff though?

[Lanoss]

Kill it with a MawKrusha and get +1 attack and wound hahahahaha

[broche]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

What are you gonna do when the enemy screens their important stuff though?

You're likely kill all the screen with only 12 pig and spending 1 CP for Gordrack command (or not even necessery if screen is fragile) leaving him pin in his zone dealing with 60 wound at 4+ with -1 to hit. Might work taking a weirnob with +2 cast with geminid to protect against going second in round 2, and getting potential -2 to hit in R1. 

Also there is some scenario where it's really hard to screen stuff effectively (when objective are far appart for exemple). I would argue that your biggest threath would be more stuff like terrain / endless spell creating choke point negating model in contact. In that case you could just use the free move to an advantageous position upfield, waiting for opposing army to disperse.

Just tought of intersting stuff do do with Da choppa: Play a ardfist with a mix of ardboys and brutes with Hacka (2'' reach). Keep squad of Brutes screened by ardboys. With each warchanter buffing 3 units, your counter attack will be pretty deadly. You can repop dead ardboys with the bataillion. I think a list like this would win most grinding war.

I think there might also be something to do with the Weirnob extra cast, giving him hand of gork and bash them lad, and the +1 to cast artefact. Might be a bit sketchy tough....

Edited September 30, 2019 by broche

[Black_Nexus]

What is the wording of the Stormcast/Ironjaws mount traits that will let us take it on a special character?

Or is it just that the limit for special characters is only no Artifacts of power and command traits?

[Backbreaker]

Okay... So now that the Ironjawz waaagh can only be used once per combat phase... The orruk warboss with waaagh banner is absolutely awesome !

We can still play with him as an ally right ?

[Scurvydog]

25 minutes ago, Black_Nexus said:

What is the wording of the Stormcast/Ironjaws mount traits that will let us take it on a special character?

Or is it just that the limit for special characters is only no Artifacts of power and command traits?

Core rules is named characters can only not receive command traits and artifacts. Mount trait rules state Heroes on a Maw-Krusha can take a mount trait and bla bla 1 additional per warscroll battalion. Gordrakks warscroll states under mount "Gordrakk's Maw-Krusha, Bigteef blablabla. It of course also has the Maw-Krusha keyword. Based on all this, it is quite clear that Gordrakk rides a Maw-Krusha, and as no rules mention named characters can not take mount traits, I don't think there is a case for him not being able to take mount traits.

In addition you can check the official warscroll builder for Stormcasts who has a bunch of named characters on mounts, they can not take traits or artifacts but they can take mount traits there.

 

9 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

Okay... So now that the Ironjawz waaagh can only be used once per combat phase... The orruk warboss with waaagh banner is absolutely awesome !

We can still play with him as an ally right ?

Ironjawz Whaagh is once per battle. I believe all old greenskinz are now legends models, so not permitted in matched play.

[broche]

After a good night of sleep, I think i might like Bloodtooth. I think I would use them with the Weirdnob general, trait with double spell (hand of gork + something else) and +1 cast artefact. I actually like the auto hand of Gork artefact, i think it actually give some nice oppening move. Not sure about the command ability, but i guess it might sometime get usefull after you kill something, then you move to grab an objective.