AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Lanoss]

I would have like Big G to be rend -2 tbh

perhaps there’s a rend warbeat?

[Jabbuk]

5 hours ago, Seihoff said:

The thing I like the less is the "moral obligation" of having 2 shields for every 5 ardboyz. That's 1 banner, 1 musician, 2 shields and 1 "normal" (or leader unit) per 5. The unit is going to look WEIRD in caps.

 

I prefer much more to have choppas or a big choppa on my models, they should have included the rule without the need of putting shields on da boyz

I think for a unit of 10, it would be 1 leader, 1 drummer, 4 shields, 2 banners and 4 weapons guys. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, the wording on their warscrolls is strange. Does this mean units of ardboys will come in 5 now?

Also, does it also mean we can finally put 2 banners per 10 ardboys? The way it's written it says 1 per 5.

[Malakree]

24 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

I would have like Big G to be rend -2 tbh

perhaps there’s a rend warbeat?

My first thought was there is a rend subfaction.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, broche said:

Yep, exactly my orignial tought, but i think you can add some gruntas  

and/or use some bonesplitters as fast mover/cheap chaff

extra wound/attack per combat phase?  clearly lightyear better than before, i would more rate good than insane

 

It actually really adds up, having got it stacked a few times recently, with the extra wound/attack scaling up quickly.

Also you missed the key one, Big G has add 1 to the attacks of Smasha AND Kunnin.

When you include the fact they are on 2s/3s/-1 inflicting d3 mortals against wizards and heroes it very quickly racks up.

[Scurvydog]

The warscroll that got a bit worse is Brutes, although they got significantly cheaper. Not sure I like that change, but eh.

Footboss lost the fist attacks, but gained the new command ability, reflect mortal wounds on save and the much much better strength from Victory, so he should definitely not be worse tham before.

Gruntas look cool, glad I got 12 of them now with a 50/50 mix of weapons, hackas with 3 attacks instead of 4 but with the 2" range and +1hit/wound on charge is a real choice now. 

1 Warchanter minimum per 1k points seems to be madness not to take, they are incredible now with both warbeat "prayers" and +1 dmg guaranteed buff, combined with the megabosses +1 hit command ability, every single unit in the army can become an outright terror by throwing these around (and help trigger smashing and bashing).

The damage output of mawkrushas is now a great deal higher if you take the +1 damage to tail and fist trait, then it goes from roughly 9 damage in average against a 4+ save model with the old rules to 13.6 now including trait, without the trait it is almost the same as it was. Basically taking a MK wihtout a trait is a worse deal than before due to the cost increase to 460 we saw.

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Scurvydog]

13 minutes ago, Malakree said:

It actually really adds up, having got it stacked a few times recently, with the extra wound/attack scaling up quickly.

Also you missed the key one, Big G has add 1 to the attacks of Smasha AND Kunnin.

When you include the fact they are on 2s/3s/-1 inflicting d3 mortals against wizards and heroes it very quickly racks up.

I am not impressed by Gordrakk at all, if he does not hit a hero or wizard, his average damage is 12,2 where a standard MK with the +1 dmg to tail and fist is at 13,6 against 4+ save models. 8 Bravery seems silly and he should at least have 9 to reflect is vastly improved status compared to a regular megaboss.

He is shown as a demigod but he is really just a tweak to regular mawkrushas, especially now they have access to mount traits, Big Teef with just 1 more attack seems puny. 

If he is still 100+ points more expensive than a regular MK I would only begin considering him in a Great Whaagh for the 6 points they talked about or if I do not use battalions and already got 1 Mawkrushas to use a trait with.

[Warmill]

I hope there's some killer command and mount traits and a allegiance abilities, cos brutes were my favourite unit and unless ardoyz went up they're staying on the shelf. Just bought a second krusha to be gordrakk or second mbmk, I guess they're  better candidates for weapon artefacts now and splitting the attacks is a bit less stressful, but did they really need to go up in points? I'll probably pick up the book and an extra start collecting box, but not sure how I feel yet.

[Sleboda]

I had an army I was building for an upcoming event. If the points changes being discussed are real, it pretty much neuters the list.

[Pitloze]

Does Gordrakks removal of cover ability stay? It doesn't say until end of turn. The "within" and "units" part is very important. It means that if you get lucky you can practically remove all the the cover on the table. Including garrisons.

" In addition, after this model makes a charge move, you can pick 1 terrain feature within 1" of this model and roll a number of dice equal to the Massively Destructive Bulk value on this model’s damage table. If any of the dice are a 6, units no longer receive the cover modifier to their save rolls for being on or within that terrain feature. "

Edited September 28, 2019 by Pitloze

[Scurvydog]

8 minutes ago, Pitloze said:

Does Gordrakks removal of cover ability stay? It doesn't say until end of turn.

" In addition, after this model makes a charge move, you can pick 1 terrain feature within 1" of this model and roll a number of dice equal to the Massively Destructive Bulk value on this model’s damage table. If any of the dice are a 6, units no longer receive the cover modifier to their save rolls for being on or within that terrain feature. "

Yes I think he effectively wrecks it permanently.

10 ardboyz only deal 0,1 less damage than 5 brutes counting boss weapons and gore choppa, if ardboyz still cost only 140 which is the same as brutes were shown to cost, then Brutes are entirely pointless. Ardboyz will have more wounds, more models for objective grabbing, +2 charge from drums, +2 bravery in melee from banner and -1 to enemies from icon.

Brutes only have an edge vs models with 4+ wounds, but even then they got less wounds and bravery so still a hard sell. Keeping brutes at 6 bravery instead of taking them to 7 as the gruntas is also just confounding! To fix them they would need 2 rend on the gore choppa and +1 bravery at the very least.

Gruntas are now just below in damage in ongoing combat, but will pull ahead of both brutes and ardboyz on the charge, especially with the spears, so I can see groups of 6 of these now to receive the warchanter buff (as buffing 6 is more effective). example a unit of 6 gruntas with the gore-hackas who are buffed by a warchanter for +1 damage and are charging, assuming all 6 get into combat on the charge for mortal wounds, they will in total dish out an average of 31,2 damage to a 4+ save unit, that is incredibly dangerous!

Edited September 28, 2019 by Scurvydog

[umpac]

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

+2 bravery in melee from banner and -1 to enemies from icon.

New banner is +2 bravery always, so they will be more resilient to shooting/magic battleshock as well.

 

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Gruntas are now just below in damage in ongoing combat, but will pull ahead of both brutes and ardboyz on the charge, especially with the spears, so I can see groups of 6 of these now to receive the warchanter buff (as buffing 6 is more effective). example a unit of 6 gruntas with the gore-hackas who are buffed by a warchanter for +1 damage and are charging, assuming all 6 get into combat on the charge for mortal wounds, they will in total dish out an average of 31,2 damage to a 4+ save unit, that is incredibly dangerous!

Yep, choppas gets even more bonkers in a Big Waagh army with +1 to hit/wound. 

Edited September 28, 2019 by umpac

[Seihoff]

6 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

I think for a unit of 10, it would be 1 leader, 1 drummer, 4 shields, 2 banners and 4 weapons guys. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, the wording on their warscrolls is strange. Does this mean units of ardboys will come in 5 now?

Also, does it also mean we can finally put 2 banners per 10 ardboys? The way it's written it says 1 per 5.

It says 1 drummer in every 5 models. You can put 2 drummers in 10 ardboys. The only limitation 1 model per unit is the boss.

And yes, you can put the 2 different banners every 10 ardboys.

[Gareth 🍄]

Gore-gruntas now 160 points (up 20 points), Ardboys now 180 points for 10 (up 40 points) but can be bought in units of 5 for 90 points - from Miniwargaming's video review.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Gareth 🍄

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I am not impressed by Gordrakk at all, if he does not hit a hero or wizard, his average damage is 12,2 where a standard MK with the +1 dmg to tail and fist is at 13,6 against 4+ save models. 8 Bravery seems silly and he should at least have 9 to reflect is vastly improved status compared to a regular megaboss.

He is shown as a demigod but he is really just a tweak to regular mawkrushas, especially now they have access to mount traits, Big Teef with just 1 more attack seems puny. 

If he is still 100+ points more expensive than a regular MK I would only begin considering him in a Great Whaagh for the 6 points they talked about or if I do not use battalions and already got 1 Mawkrushas to use a trait with.

Does it actually say bigteef can't have a mount trait?

Just checked. Named characters can't have artefacts or command traits so bigteef can have the +1 damage.

[Gareth 🍄]

 

 

Goes through all the points here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q49LDcsjGZ8&feature=youtu.be&t=2271

 

 

[Warmill]

So immediate thing I though from the video, Ardfist + chanter + 5x5 ardboyz would be 680 points and each time one unit dies on a 4+ you get a unit of 10 back on any table edge! That could make a big difference on battleplans like scorched earth.

[Jabbuk]

57 minutes ago, Seihoff said:

It says 1 drummer in every 5 models. You can put 2 drummers in 10 ardboys. The only limitation 1 model per unit is the boss.

And yes, you can put the 2 different banners every 10 ardboys.

Great, thanks for clarifying. The buffs don't stack for the drums however so there's no point in putting 2 in a group of 10. Is says the unit gets plus +2 while it includes any drummer.

[Scurvydog]

Well takeaways in broad strokes of what I see is best and worst.

Best:

Ironclad command trait is just +1 to saves, nasty

Destroyer is devastating on the now 8 attacks by the megaboss on the MK

Mount traits, the +1 damage is obvious

Spell lore is rather dangerous and damaging for relatively low cast values

Everything about warchanters, they are insanely useful and all their beats can be good

Ironfist battalion is now 1 free use per turn of mighty destroyers by the boss, this is really good value despite the 160 pts cost

Gordrakk is "only" 80 pts more than a regular MK and is baseline a decent upgrade, especially the command trait affecting 3 units instead of 1 for great value. He is far far more valuable in the great whaagh allegiance though.

Brutes are 140 pts and ardboyz can come in units of 5

Weirdnob shaman artifact generating CP on 4+ can make aetherquartz less mandatory or stack if you want, probably not, see the BAD.

 

The BAD

Ironjawz Clans are rather "meh" benefits are low, command abilities are not very interesting for 2/3, command traits and artifacts are rather poor. Choppas are the most interesting, especially the command trait which allows a warchanter to buff 3 units instead of 1, this might be the gamechanger if any among all the Clan stuff.

Gruntas are better but now more expensive, on the fence but putting it here.

Ardboyz are better but the most expensive choice at 180... eh.. I guess... otherwise Brutes would be pointless.

Ironjawz Whaagh, well damn that got nerfed HARD roll 1d6 and add number of units within 12/18" and equal or beat a reoll of 11! You now need 7 units in range for just a 50/50 chance of this even working at all, so so so bad, but frees us somewhat from CP stacking, hurrah...

 

All in all Ironjawz seem somewhat meh as an allegiance. I'd say take an Ironfist battalion in the Great Whaagh army so you can still use mighty destroyers, run pure Ironjawz there still, as all the warscroll only help Ironjawz or Bonesplitterz, so no warscroll synergy at all. Great Whaagh provides the Mad as Hell effect too anyway, also +to charge, so the Ironjawz allegiance only offers the worse Whaagh and baseline mighty destroyers command ability and Smashing and Bashing. 

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Warmill]

12 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

All in all Ironjawz seem somewhat meh as an allegiance. I'd say take an Ironfist battalion in the Great Whaagh army so you can still use mighty destroyers, run pure Ironjawz there still, as all the warscroll only help Ironjawz or Bonesplitterz, so no warscroll synergy at all. Great Whaagh provides the Mad as Hell effect too anyway, also +to charge, so the Ironjawz allegiance only offers the worse Whaagh and baseline mighty destroyers command ability and Smashing and Bashing. 

 

Yeah +1 to hit and wound armywide is gonna be very hard to turn down, especially if Gordrakk + 2 chanters gets you there by start of turn 2.

[Scurvydog]

Just now, Warmill said:

Yeah +1 to hit and wound armywide is gonna be very hard to turn down, especially if Gordrakk + 2 chanters gets you there by start of turn 2.

Exactly as the same effect as mad as hell is already at 4 pts and at 8 you get +1 charge as well. The Ironfist with the free mighty destroyers (which you will not normally have access to in the Great Whaagh) will be just about mandatory for many lists I think, probably on a Grunta boss to get him where he needs to be.

Smashin and Bashing and all heroes access to mighty destroyers is not worth +1 hit and +1 wound armywide... the 6 pts ability to get +1 cast/unbind for d3 whaagh points is somewhat meh though.

If the Ironjawz Clans had been better this would be less of a no brainer.

Regarding mount traits as I read it under the mount trait section, it states the mount needs to be a Mawkrusha, while technically Gordrakk rides Big Teef as stated on his Warscroll, so I doubt trying to give him a mount trait will fly, unless you only look at keywords. Anyone got some experience from Stormcast with this? They are the only ones with mount traits and named characters on named mounts I recall.

[Kasper]

Initial thoughts: Our Waagh has been nerfed to once per turn, which I think is OK. It is also much harder to pull off, but Bloodtoofs help a little. It was terrible to use and play against imo. The traits and artefacts are pretty cool.

The Megaboss on Maw Krusha is gonna be all around a beast. The boss with destroyer is gonan be like 8 attacks 3s/3s/-1/6 (2 base, +3 destroyer, +1 warchanter) - The destroyer is obviously only once per damage, but that's when you really want to delete a key unit. Ontop of that you have the beast with with 8 attacks 3s/3s/-2/4 damage a piece (2 base, 1 from mount trait and 1 from warchanter). He's gonna pound ****** into the ground tbh. Theres the warbeat that makes a unit +1 to hit, so both profiles would hit on 2s.

I'm a little disappointed in Big G. I expected more considering his point cost and how other major lore characters are.

Bloodtoofs is still gonna be my choice 100%. You get a free teleport that can't be unbound - HOLY ******?

Edited September 28, 2019 by Kasper

[Seihoff]

1 hour ago, Jabbuk said:

Great, thanks for clarifying. The buffs don't stack for the drums however so there's no point in putting 2 in a group of 10. Is says the unit gets plus +2 while it includes any drummer.

If you want to use different unit sizes in different games is great. I try to maximize always the "special options" for that reason. In a 10 or 20 model unit it's the same because they don't stack, but if you want to use two or four 5-man units in another game you have a drummer ready for each one.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Seihoff

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Warmill said:

Yeah +1 to hit and wound armywide is gonna be very hard to turn down, especially if Gordrakk + 2 chanters gets you there by start of turn 2.

But do you have to spend the points and then go down to 0 and have it for the remainder of the game, or is it just a "power thredshold" you reach and it keeps climbing and when you reach certain points you instantly get the bonuses?

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

Smashin and Bashing and all heroes access to mighty destroyers is not worth +1 hit and +1 wound armywide... the 6 pts ability to get +1 cast/unbind for d3 whaagh points is somewhat meh though.

Yeah that's my reaction too. The IJ alligiance abilities are just too good imo.

[ShaneHobbes]

Anyone else feel like Ardboyz just completely overshadow GGs and especially Brutes?  I'm starting to feel less excited about this update.