AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Scurvydog]

Ardboyz with big choppas had  2 attacks 4+/3+/rend -1 before, with 2 weapons they had 3 attacks but 0 rend. Now they got 2 attacks 3+/3+/rend -1 across the board regardless of model. This solves WYSIWYG problems and is overall an offensive output improvement. If brutes receive no further improvements and 10 ardboyz are also 140 points, then the offensive gap will be much lower and ardboyz win with both model count and wounds. Will have to see the final warscrolls for both to be sure.

From how they explained the great whaagh points build up and you get all the buffs up to and including the current amount of points, so at 20 points you should get all the buffs we know about so far, so improved casting, +1 charge, +1 hit and +1 wound at least, including a few other things most likely. This will make actually expending them a hard choice.

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

Rewatched the Twitch battle report. The Brutes Klaw and Basha are now one profile. From what I recall, it's now four attacks 4+/3+/-1/2

The Boss Choppa remains three attacks 3+/3+/-1/2

I think they said the Hakkas and Choppas are unchanged

Has anyone heard if Brutes keep Duff up da Big Fing?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Gorks Pokin' Finger

[broche]

4 hours ago, Pitloze said:

How did you get both +1 to hit and +1 to wound? The +1 to wound is already 20 pts on it's own right?

From the preview. +1 to hit is 16 points. 

So far from what I see I'm pretty excited by the Great waaagh. You get some really nice bonus, and mixing both IJ and BS will give a lot of flexibility to army building. You get access to shooting, cheap chaff. At this point I can't wait to see all warscroll and spelllore to have the full overview.

 

4 hours ago, Warmill said:

I'm not feeling the changes to brutes, I'd have much rather they were buffed to be worth their points. Hopefully there's some new abilities to make them really good otherwise I can't see them being a better choice than 10 ardboyz who all hit on 3+ 3+ with a +1 damage from the chanter.

It's a bit sad that they streamlined the Brutes, i too would have prefer that they still cost 170--180 but with improved warscroll. Meh

[Jabbuk]

Personally I'm cool with it. I'm just curious as to how they see the structure of the army now. As before, ardboys were more like meatshields and brutes were hard hitters, now ardboys are much better offensively and brutes have been somewhat nerfed. I'm really curious as to what both of their roles are going to be.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Pitloze]

3 hours ago, broche said:

From the preview. +1 to hit is 16 points. 

So far from what I see I'm pretty excited by the Great waaagh. You get some really nice bonus, and mixing both IJ and BS will give a lot of flexibility to army building. You get access to shooting, cheap chaff. At this point I can't wait to see all warscroll and spelllore to have the full overview.

Ok still a bit confused here. Won't you need 36 pts by turn 2 then to do what you said? Or do you spend 20 and get everything on the list up until 20? Because that would be super sick.

 

[PlayerJ]

Waaagh points, up until you spend them on Da Big Waaagh!! is cumulative, don't need to spend for the hit, wound, charge, etc. bonuses.

Edited September 26, 2019 by PlayerJ

[Gothmaug]

18 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

 

Notes from the interview with Ben johnson:

No battering ram or endless spells. 

Ardboys got only one profile, don't know if Ben had it wrong but he said 2 attacks 3+/3+/-1/1. 

 

Oh well, I was hoping we’d get that battering ram. It was even mentioned in today’s warhammer community Orruk article. 

“As the Soul Wars rage across the Mortal Realms, orruks of all stripes have taken advantage of the mayhem to smash more stuff than ever before! With the opening of the Stormvaults, Gordrakk, the Fist of Gorkis planning devastation on a truly massive scale, looting the skull of the godbeast Hammergord in order to mount it on a gigantic battering ram…”

[Pitloze]

1 hour ago, PlayerJ said:

Waaagh points, up until you spend them on Da Big Waaagh!! is cumulative, don't need to spend for the hit, wound, charge, etc. bonuses.

That is brutal.

[Gothmaug]

I appreciate the stat lines being updated and consolidated, but I’ll be a bit irritated if the warscrolls lose the flavorful powers. Thinks like the boss Klaw grab, the ardboys banners and shields, those thugs gave some variety to. our small pool of units.

 

[PlayerJ]

18 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

I appreciate the stat lines being updated and consolidated, but I’ll be a bit irritated if the warscrolls lose the flavorful powers. Thinks like the boss Klaw grab, the ardboys banners and shields, those thugs gave some variety to. our small pool of units.

 

I dont think we'll be losing banners

Shields are up in the air though 

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

They better not touch banners.

[Malakree]

19 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

Notes I made from watching the twitch streams:

Brute fist does mortal wounds for each model within 1 inch on a 4+ after charging. 

MBMK 460 points:

Destructive bulk does mortal wounds on a 5+ instead of 4+. Same amount of dice. Save rolls of 6 does mortal wounds back (not 100% sure of this on the MBMK). Smasha and rip tooth is 6 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/2 and mighty fist and tail does 8 attacks at 3+/3+/-2/2 and is still on the damage table. Strength from victory for any kill. D6 scream attacks at 2+/3+/-1/1. Command ability: units gets +1 to hit. 

Brutes 140 points:

Claw+club 4 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/2

Gore choppa 3 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/2

Dual choppas 4 attacks and two handers 3 at 3+/3+/-1/1.

Megaboss 150 points:

6 attacks 3+/3+/-1/2. Strength from victory and mortal wounds back on saves of 6. 

Notes from the interview with Ben johnson:

No battering ram or endless spells. 

Ardboys got only one profile, don't know if Ben had it wrong but he said 2 attacks 3+/3+/-1/1. 

Warchanter gives  +1 damage for no cost(?) or and no test and 3 dice to charge on a 4+ prayer to a unit wholy within 12 (or 18?)

Gordrakk:

9 attacks with mighty fist and tail. 5 attacks with each axe hitting on 2+/3+/-1/1 and D3 and extra damage to heroes/wizards. 6 instead of D6 screaming attacks. 

Command ability. Destruction units gets +1 to hit. 

Units in cover gets damaged on charge? 

Smashing and bashing and mighty destroyers are unchanged. 

Mighty waagh allegiance:

D6 waagh points every turn. Bringing gordrakk makes it a 6.Each warchanter gives 2 each turn.

6 waagh points for +to cast and 8 for +to charge. 

 

Man I desperately hope you are wrong on those rend profiles. If not then we have actually lost rend across the army not gained it, that would be horrific. 

If this is true then the cabbage got nerfed, Brutes got nerfed, Footboss got nerfed and Ardboys + Warchanter is now the best unit in the army? 

There's also the ridiculous situation where depending on other things in the army the Gore Choppa might actually be worse than a standard Dual Choppas?

EDIT:

Also if my ****** Footboss has rend -1 and a FREEGUILD GENERAL has rend -2 I'm going to be so angry....

Edited September 26, 2019 by Malakree

[Gothmaug]

It does look like all the variable 1D3 damage effects got replaced with a flat 2 damage.

 

As for the new unit profiles, depending on how the waaagh mechanics work, a general decrease in power May be necessary for balance if our units are constantly under the affects of an army wide set of buffs. Of course if that’s the case, then we just got a big book of Mediocre. Oh well, can’t wait for the warscrolls to be released

[Skumbaagh]

As for the big waagh I remember reading or hearing Ben say something about waagh point mechanics. On a roll 1 of one the points reset to 0. On a 2-5 it halves and on a 6 it stays on the current level. 

On another note: at the end of the game on twitch the IJ player puts back his dead MBMK on the table right before the game finishes. I didn't get what he says while doing it and there is no talk about accumulating reinforcement points or such...... 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Skumbaagh

[Scurvydog]

A Mawkrusha with 8 attacks base and 3+/3+/rend 2/dmg2 is a decent trade, especially with mount traits, give it +1 damage, then have a warchanter nearby for +1 damage and maybe +hit from warboss CP or in general from great whaagh... That will hurt real bad!

Consolidating weapon profiles, like giving the mounted megaboss 6 attacks straight helps with giving him artifacts, but hurts with +1 attack Whaags...

The Whaagh bomb before made brute bosses with their 2 weapons truly terrifying, but lets see if the allegiance abilities and warclan rules make up for it.

I am worried about brutes though and how they are supposed to compete with ardboyz with these new profiles.

[Requizen]

15 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

As for the big waagh I remember reading or hearing Ben say something about waagh point mechanics. On a roll 1 of one the points reset to 0. On a 2-5 it halves and on a 6 it stays on the current level. 

On another note: at the end of the game on twitch the IJ player puts back his dead MBMK on the table right before the game finishes. I didn't get what he says while doing it and there is no talk about accumulating reinforcement points or such...... 

Waaagh Points have two functions as a resource: passive benefits and spendable resources.

You get a stacking set of bonuses depending on how many Points you have. These include bonuses to Cast, Charge, Hit, and Wound. These bonuses don't "drain" your points.

You may choose to use certain abilities once you gain enough Waaagh Points, such as "Da Big Waaagh!" shown in the article. You can use that ability once you have 24 Waaagh Points, and at the end of that phase, you roll a dice. On a 6, you keep all the points, and therefore retain your passive benefits for next turn. On a 2-5, you lose half your Waaagh Points, retaining some benefits next turn. On a 1, you lose all your Points, meaning next turn you're weaker, but can generate them again. 

It's actually pretty tactical for an Orruk ability, because it's going to be a balancing act between generating, benefiting from passives, and potentially burning points for stronger effects.

[Skumbaagh]

13 hours ago, Requizen said:

Waaagh Points have two functions as a resource: passive benefits and spendable resources.

You get a stacking set of bonuses depending on how many Points you have. These include bonuses to Cast, Charge, Hit, and Wound. These bonuses don't "drain" your points.

You may choose to use certain abilities once you gain enough Waaagh Points, such as "Da Big Waaagh!" shown in the article. You can use that ability once you have 24 Waaagh Points, and at the end of that phase, you roll a dice. On a 6, you keep all the points, and therefore retain your passive benefits for next turn. On a 2-5, you lose half your Waaagh Points, retaining some benefits next turn. On a 1, you lose all your Points, meaning next turn you're weaker, but can generate them again. 

It's actually pretty tactical for an Orruk ability, because it's going to be a balancing act between generating, benefiting from passives, and potentially burning points for stronger effects.

Alright. And both the passive and the active abilitys are only available for the big waagh and not for IJ and bonesplittas?

[Malakree]

22 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

Alright. And both the passive and the active abilitys are only available for the big waagh and not for IJ and bonesplittas?

Yes. We have 3 allegiances.

1) Ironjawz. These have smashing and bashing, mad as hell, +1 to charge etc.

2) Bonesplitterz. These have tireless trackers, warping, monster Hunter etc.

3) The Big Waaagh! This will have Waaagh! points. 

They are 3 completely separate allegiances with all that entails.

[Scurvydog]

Will be interesting to see if the Great Whaagh has anything else than the Whaagh table. While it does sound powerful, it leaves little room for customization. They did mention artifacts from the individual factions could be used in the great Whaagh, so wonder if that is true for command traits and mount traits. A Mawkrusha with 8 attacks 2+/2+/rend -2 and 2+1 damage from the mount trait will be a true monster if so.

Do this, then give the MK megaboss the big tree artifact for 1 combat, then buff with a warchanter and your MK now averages 35 damage against a 4+ save unit. For those times where you want something deader than dead.

 

 

[Karragon]

15 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

On another note: at the end of the game on twitch the IJ player puts back his dead MBMK on the table right before the game finishes. I didn't get what he says while doing it and there is no talk about accumulating reinforcement points or such...... 

He put it back on the table because someone in the chat asked whether they could see it again so he obliged. It was still quite, quite dead

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Will be interesting to see if the Great Whaagh has anything else than the Whaagh table. While it does sound powerful, it leaves little room for customization. They did mention artifacts from the individual factions could be used in the great Whaagh, so wonder if that is true for command traits and mount traits. A Mawkrusha with 8 attacks 2+/2+/rend -2 and 2+1 damage from the mount trait will be a true monster if so.

Wait, I thought they had their own unique artefacts. Where did it say they could use 2.

[broche]

With what is spoiled so far i see Ironjawz becoming top t1. The new warchanter ability is just totally insane.

[Requizen]

20 minutes ago, broche said:

With what is spoiled so far i see Ironjawz becoming top t1. The new warchanter ability is just totally insane.

Unlikely. They're still a melee-only (outside of spells) army with no summoning, rezzing, or teleporting as far as we know. 

Khorne has a similar setup (mostly melee, heavy hitters + ok blobs) but also has summoning rules and high model counts with Bloodletters, Reavers, and Maraouders - and they're pretty well mid-high tier. 

Granted, Ironjawz mobility seems to be higher overall than Khorne between the CA and MAH, but we'll have to see.

[broche]

 

29 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Khorne has a similar setup (mostly melee, heavy hitters + ok blobs)

I don't think you realize the output increase of +1 damage on single damage units (small clue: it's x2)

I'm pretty sure we will still have hand of gork. 

At the level of damge we are looking at, shooting magic and even summoning might become irrelevant:

For exemple, in a great waaagh 20 ardboys + warchanter buff will be dishing out 55 damage (r1). If you use the Waaagh!, it's 83. I'm not a khorne expert, but i don't think they come close to this amount from the some experience i've against them. The only unit that are in the same range of damage is 30 buffed fury, or Morsarr guard with +4 attack. 

3 x 20 arbdboys and 3 warchanter cost less than 1200 pts. It already give you 63 model and 140 wound on the board, and 800 more point to spend. Want shooting, take some arrowboys!

And assuming Gruntas keep a similar warscroll (lots of attack at 1 damage)  this will work on them as well. Brutes and Maw Krusha would actually be your worse target.

[PlayerJ]

 

17 minutes ago, broche said:

 

I don't think you realize the output increase of +1 damage on single damage units (small clue: it's x2)

I'm pretty sure we will still have hand of gork. 

At the level of damge we are looking at, shooting magic and even summoning might become irrelevant:

For exemple, in a great waaagh 20 ardboys + warchanter buff will be dishing out 55 damage (r1). If you use the Waaagh!, it's 83. I'm not a khorne expert, but i don't think they come close to this amount from the some experience i've against them. The only unit that are in the same range of damage is 30 buffed fury, or Morsarr guard with +4 attack. 

3 x 20 arbdboys and 3 warchanter cost less than 1200 pts. It already give you 63 model and 140 wound on the board, and 800 more point to spend. Want shooting, take some arrowboys!

And assuming Gruntas keep a similar warscroll (lots of attack at 1 damage)  this will work on them as well. Brutes and Maw Krusha would actually be your worse target.

We don't know if the ardboys points have changed yet, like other units