AoS 2 and what it means for Destruction

[blueshirtman]

Are we sure about that? It seems like chaffing the bejesus out of objectives, the way vulkites to it, seems a prime way to win.

[novakai]

I hope there more Destruction Faction Focus coming soon, at least for Bonesplitter and Beastclaw Raider

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

I hope there more Destruction Faction Focus coming soon, at least for Bonesplitter and Beastclaw Raider

Yeah hopefully we'll get something like that Bell bringing in 340 points worth of Warpgnaw Verminlord... ?

[heywoah_twitch]

2 hours ago, novakai said:

I hope there more Destruction Faction Focus coming soon, at least for Bonesplitter and Beastclaw Raider

 

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Yeah hopefully we'll get something like that Bell bringing in 340 points worth of Warpgnaw Verminlord... ?

or Plastic Yhetees announced

[blueshirtman]

But "free" 350pts in models are only efficient, if either the unit is actually worth a lot more or if no one else gets those "free" 350pts. If everyone gets more or less the same type of summoning, then the play field doesn't change much. Well not counting the need to buy extra models of course. Or am I missing something with how summoning is suppose to work?

46 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

or Plastic Yhetees announced

Wouldn't something like a beastclaw caster be more important, specially with the added focus on spell casting and the realm special rule interaction. Although in case of the second, I hope GW is also going to let totems/priests use some of them. Or failing that make "special" characters out of the characters already in our boxs. The dual saddle and a huskar/lord on it, both twin brothers with some extra rules for extra points, and one is a wizard or a priest.

[heywoah_twitch]

2 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

Wouldn't something like a beastclaw caster be more important, specially with the added focus on spell casting and the realm special rule interaction. Although in case of the second, I hope GW is also going to let totems/priests use some of them. Or failing that make "special" characters out of the characters already in our boxs. The dual saddle and a huskar/lord on it, both twin brothers with some extra rules for extra points, and one is a wizard or a priest.

Well warscrolls and army abilities can be easily changed with editing a pdf and uploading it to the website/app. I think a long-term problem with beastclaw isn't that most of our stuff sucks (as that will get ironed out as the editions and GHBs release), but that a large portion of our army is ancient finecast. 

Consider the number of Kits in our army: Behemoth Box, Mournfang Box, Frost Saber Box, Icebrow Hunter Box, Yhetee Box. 3 out of 5 of them are old crappy finecast junk that are really showing their age. One of the most searched terms for beastclaw on google is "what can I use for counts-as with the awful yetis?"

That's a shame imo.

As for really suggesting changes or new guys, the window for that has long passed surely, and so I'm waiting patiently for our Faction Focus. I can so far say that taking the other faction focus' into account (coupled with how the new rules affect them), I'm quite excited to find out what we get - especially since every faction previewed looks to be considerably stronger than it was, in ways that seem to understand what was wrong originally. And many of those armies were already very strong. Take an army that started out on the bottom like us, and, well, I'm looking forward to it.

It'll make for a good reaction video if nothing else.

[svnvaldez]

3 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

large portion of our army is ancient finecast. 

I would love to run a BCR list with say 36 frost sabres in a skal. It’s about 1k... but no one is going to buy 36 finecast models. Your only option is not write lists with a lot of finecast models or settle for proxies or count as.

[Sangfroid]

 

Im convinced this is Destruction looks too similar to the Weirdnob smoke and the only other model that has had this type of smoke is in 40k starter for deathguard 

couple this with the sword from the other day.... could be interesting times

[Malakree]

Firebelly smoke looks just like that no?

[Vasshpit]

Spore cloud!!!... From a Squig!!.... Shooting... spores.... sporeatically....

 

 

Yep.

[novakai]

It reminds me of a few things it could be

 

Even though there hasn't been actual destruction news lately, between the Adepticon hint, Rumor engines pics, and the Rumor mills. it has kept my hopes up

[broche]

Just read the summoning mechanic of slann, and i think what AoS 2 mean for Destruction is: Summon will be broken, Destruction don't get summon so Destruction will still be bad

[Sangfroid]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

Firebelly smoke looks just like that no?

Whoops forgot about him ? though it’s been more than 3 years since I saw one in the wild sadly 

[Sheriff]

1 hour ago, broche said:

Just read the summoning mechanic of slann, and i think what AoS 2 mean for Destruction is: Summon will be broken, Destruction don't get summon so Destruction will still be bad

Yeah its not looking good for us. Got nothing so far and seems it's tome-only in the new edition. Maybe massive point reductions will even things out? 

[Skabnoze]

We don't know what allegiance abilities will or will not be in the GHB for destruction yet.  We also don't know if there will be a summoning mechanic or not within Destruction - although I will agree that it is probably not likely for the existing destruction subfactions.  But the Seraphon summoning seems fine to me.  It is not without a cost, and it relies heavily on the general and other heroes - all of which can be killed.  I like the idea of factions that have unique mechanics that influence how they play and how you should fight against them.  That summoning price chart seems like a good way to deal with the costs - the chart can easily be altered by an errata or a new edition of the GHB if it turns out that some of the costs are too high or low.

[broche]

25 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

We don't know what allegiance abilities will or will not be in the GHB for destruction yet.  We also don't know if there will be a summoning mechanic or not within Destruction - although I will agree that it is probably not likely for the existing destruction subfactions.  But the Seraphon summoning seems fine to me.  It is not without a cost, and it relies heavily on the general and other heroes - all of which can be killed.  I like the idea of factions that have unique mechanics that influence how they play and how you should fight against them.  That summoning price chart seems like a good way to deal with the costs - the chart can easily be altered by an errata or a new edition of the GHB if it turns out that some of the costs are too high or low.

I played before GHB2016 at Adepticon (with SDK point system). Trust me, free points are never good. 

A Slaan can generate 9 conjuration + d3 + 1 every hero phase. It will get screen by either skink, take cover and benefit from look out sir, so don't expect to kill it early with shooting. Only restriction you could play is the whooly within 12 inch, so if you pin the slaan in combat it's limitating, but since it summon at the end of move phase, he can always retreat first then summon.

Only way it could be balanced is if Slaan increase to like 400-450 pts and kroak to 550-600...

[Skabnoze]

6 minutes ago, broche said:

I played before GHB2016 at Adepticon (with SDK point system). Trust me, free points are never good. 

A Slaan can generate 9 conjuration + d3 + 1 every hero phase. It will get screen by either skink, take cover and benefit from look out sir, so don't expect to kill it early with shooting. Only restriction you could play is the whooly within 12 inch, so if you pin the slaan in combat it's limitating, but since it summon at the end of move phase, he can always retreat first then summon.

Only way it could be balanced is if Slaan increase to like 400-450 pts and kroak to 550-600...

This seems like an awful lot of hyperbole based on some very incomplete teasers.

None of these are really free points aside from maybe the +1 per hero phase for having a Slann as your general.  I would assume that would be accounted for in his cost as well as the D3 for astrolith bearer.  The Astrolith bearer has to get somewhat close to danger to plant the standard for it's buff - which means it is vulnerable to getting killed.  The rest of your points per turn require the Slann to trade off casting spells.  If you have to trade one of your resources (the amount of spells you can cast per turn) to generate something then by definition it is not free.

Also, with all that effort you can at most generate 13 points in a turn - which according to the snippet of the cost chart is 2 units of 10 skinks.  What I have seen does not lend me to believe that the sky is falling here.  And a Slann is not at all immortal from shooting.  He only has a 4+ save and 7 wounds.  Sure, he can get the benefit of Look Out Sir (which requires parking another unit near him in the backfield), but it is only a -1 to hit and not the end of the world.  Personally, I would still happily fire artillery at him if I was worried about his summoning ability during a game - or possibly chase him down with fast moving chaff like Wolf Chariots.

While I did not play much during GHB '16, I have also played many editions of this game and many other tabletop games that have summoning rules.  In previous iterations of Warhammer Fantasy summoning was effectively free and just required casting the spell.  It could potentially snowball and lead to someone losing - but that was only if you let them do their summoning unmolested.  The few summoning systems that have been showcased so far seem to have limitations and potential avenues for an opponent to disrupt the plans.  I'll reserve judgement about the total effect of the game until we see the full picture for the new rules and point costs in action.  But for right now I find the teasers to be interesting and I am in favor of most things that make the game more interesting.

[blueshirtman]

How would a BRC list kill a slan that hides behind a skink wall and is outside of shoting range of huskarls? I can imagine a wyvern buffed getting a mega charge and killing the slan or an astrolith bearer. I can imagine him being turned in to a porcupine by arrow boys. But for ogors or beastclaws it seems harder to pull off.

[Skabnoze]

7 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

How would a BRC list kill a slan that hides behind a skink wall and is outside of shoting range of huskarls? I can imagine a wyvern buffed getting a mega charge and killing the slan or an astrolith bearer. I can imagine him being turned in to a porcupine by arrow boys. But for ogors or beastclaws it seems harder to pull off.

It probably requires more insight into what, if anything, is changing about Beastclaw Raiders to answer that question.  Hopefully there will be more faction focus articles on Destruction armies to give us some insight into how they will fare in the new edition.

[broche]

@Skabnoze you can mark my word, unless there is some kind of heavier restriction not teased yet or massive point increase for summoning mechanic (which i doubt will happen), i can assure you that summoning will absolutely dominate the new meta post AoS 2. IMHO it'a a pretty bad switch, as summoning with renforcement point was a really good mechanic. It was still usable to give flexibility and mobility, but you could not break the game. Free point break the game, and make it utterly hard to balance.

On the other end, it's really good to sell models, from a $$$ perpective it's a really good thing.

and 7 life at 3+ (slann benefit from cover) with a -1 to hit is really hard to kill in shooting. Even with buffed Arrowboys it will take 2 volley to kill. Your probably better killing the stuff he summon lol

[Malakree]

49 minutes ago, broche said:

and 7 life at 3+ (slann benefit from cover) with a -1 to hit is really hard to kill in shooting. Even with buffed Arrowboys it will take 2 volley to kill. Your probably better killing the stuff he summon lol

As long as lizardmen lose their free movement phase teleport for it this isn't actually that bad.

They are sacrificing spell, which they actually have to name by the looks of it, so that's one of our biggest problems with them gone. When you roll the fact he can't just randomly teleport/snipe/alpha strike/run away it makes the game vs them a lot less mobility based which is something that is only good for us.

It's actually the Death and Demon armies which I'm worried about. Although if the Ardfist actually works like it seems it's going to we will be nuts as well.

[svnvaldez]

50 minutes ago, broche said:

I can assure you that summoning will absolutely dominate the new meta post AoS 2. IMHO it'a a pretty bad switch, as summoning with renforcement point was a really good mechanic. It was still usable to give flexibility and mobility, but you could not break the game. Free point break the game, and make it utterly hard to balance.

On the other end, it's really good to sell models, from a $$$ perpective it's a really good thing.

I don’t want to be a doom sayer but I reckon your going to be correct. I think the largest diffulty in the new meta will be proper enforcement of summon pools by TOs. 

I hope we see at large event players required to bring a separate list of models they have in their summoning pool. To accompany this list you will need the appropriate models painted to the appropriate standards.

Summoning pools imo are the biggest offenders of poor proxies and count as models. Often not painted to the standard of the list army as well. 

[Skabnoze]

So far all of the summoning appears to be tied to allegiance abilities.  If this is the case then I would not be surprised to see the allegiance abilities for those armies reworked entirely and have some items removed to make room for the summoning as @Malakree alluded to.

[Thostos]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

As long as lizardmen lose their free movement phase teleport for it this isn't actually that bad.

They are sacrificing spell, which they actually have to name by the looks of it, so that's one of our biggest problems with them gone. When you roll the fact he can't just randomly teleport/snipe/alpha strike/run away it makes the game vs them a lot less mobility based which is something that is only good for us.

It's actually the Death and Demon armies which I'm worried about. Although if the Ardfist actually works like it seems it's going to we will be nuts as well.

  With what has been revealed about the different summoning/regro abilities so far,,I see no reason why Ardfist wouldnt work just as its written.The restrictions on it being that the (only) Warchanter must be alive and the unit(s) need to return on the board edge as close as possible to him,this is a rather hefty prerequisite as any army with even the most minimal sniping ability will know to get the Warchanter taken out at first opportunity,thus making hiding or keeping the Chanter out of range would minimalize the effect of bringing these units back.

[Caffran101]

18 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

 

Im convinced this is Destruction looks too similar to the Weirdnob smoke and the only other model that has had this type of smoke is in 40k starter for deathguard 

couple this with the sword from the other day.... could be interesting times

Calling it now - these are going to be from another Ironjawz Shadespire warband.

Oh how GW teases us.