Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[valenswift]

I really like the background and colour scheme for Nautilar but not keen on the enclave rules, wish they'd done something similar to KO where you could create your own. I only play with friends so it won't be a big deal if i use different enclave rules but seems like a missed opportunity.

[Aelf help]

Can anyone help me with this?

On 23/04/2018 at 6:33 AM, Aelf help said:

Hi all,

first time poster and brand new to AoS.  Played 40k for as long as I can remember and played fantasy a bit with a HE army. I stayed out of AoS until I saw what they did with Aelves at which point I thought maybe I will get on board. Anyway the models have come out and they are even better than I had hoped, thus here we are...

having not played this at all but having watched a few games I notice that most of the game is often over by end of T3 (it is in 40k too) and that most major charges happen in T2. Also, the difference in combat phase being that charging doesn’t guarantee striking first (unlike 40k) makes me think that we actually want most of our units charging in round 3 (bearing in mind we always strike first), is that a good idea?

so based upon tides, strategy would be;

T1 - maneuver hammer/ anvil units and shoot using cover to help negate enemy shooting. Spells to buff survivbility or slow enemy if possible.

T2 - similar to the first but it is likely that some anvil units (thinking defensive eels here)  have to charge to prevent faster elements from the opponents army attacking you. Spells to continue to receive cover if required or deal mortal wounds to faster enemy elements 

T3 - main assault, hammers hit key targets all across the line making use of maximum damage output in combat phase due to old fashioned ASF. Spells and abilities to buff damage output this turn.

T4 - if it is already over then mop up (hopefully don’t get mopped up); if it is not then remaining hammers withdraw from combat and charge again to either pick new targets or to get charge bonus again (offensive eels); magic to buff damage output

what do people think of this as an idea, is it workable at all?

cheers,

 

[Amradiel]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

You got two great spellcasters who are tough to take down (Forgotten Nightmares and Tidecaster ability) - they can debuff enemy greatly with two -1 to hit spells and maybe give yourself a cover or ofensive spell + easier rituals. One unit of Thralls is to grab objectives and the bigger one to serve as a hammer , with Inspiring Presence every turn Bravery is not a problem. Maybe split Ishalean Guard into two units of 3 - to grab objectives when needed. 

Thank you

[syph0n]

2 hours ago, valenswift said:

I really like the background and colour scheme for Nautilar but not keen on the enclave rules, wish they'd done something similar to KO where you could create your own. I only play with friends so it won't be a big deal if i use different enclave rules but seems like a missed opportunity.

It says in the Battletome to create your own scheme but choose Enclave rules that suit the lore of your own best. I like the Nautilar shell armour, and think it would work well to make a pearl effect with some metallic medium in it, but prefer the Morphann and Briomdar rules. I think if you mix up the scheme a little it's no issue. 

[Nasnad]

What enclave are people going to use? .. are aany of them standing out, or are they fairly balanced? .. or to depending on how you wanna play ?

[Kugane]

I am  quite clueless what to go for. The thralls being so pricy (money wise) I am kind of wondering what would be the best way to approach this army haha

[vorathian]

Nautilar hands down. Get a mass group of eel riders , put the spell that reduces the enemy's rend and mystic shield them- then run up the table and sit on an objective and wait for the enemy's charge, enjoy re-rolling all failed hits for your unit against them.

[Kugane]

Just now, vorathian said:

Nautilar hands down. Get a mass group of eel riders , put the spell that reduces the enemy's rend and mystic shield them- then run up the table and sit on an objective and wait for the enemy's charge, enjoy re-rolling all failed hits for your unit against them.

That sounds great! Thanks for the info. How many eels would you suggest?

[Knight of Ruin]

 Problem is that our hardest hitting unit only hits hard on the charge. 

[Knight of Ruin]

On a different note. Taking a generic king with the trait for -bravery for enemies within 12", spell from eidolon and terrorwound toxin. -3 bravery.

Any good or not worth sacrificing a command trait and artifact for?

 

[Acid_Nine]

15 hours ago, Aelf help said:

Can anyone help me with this?

 

Alrighty, so I posted something similar for the mornarr guard earlier, but it was refuted early. I still think it's a good general rule to follow though, and it is helpful to remember that retreating is a thing. Morrsarr guard live and breathe charging, and getting into position or letting the enemy get into position for you is key. For this reason, using the retreating rule to break off attack is probably the best thing to do if you find yourself needing a high tide attack.

If You want to charge turn 1, I suggest letting the enemy go first (at risk of objectives being taken) for them to get close enough for the charge. Charge in morsar guard and shield eels if you can, and hit hard with the spear guys first. Try to position the shield eels in a way using fly to screen a counter charge.

2nd turn, retreat the spears and allow shield eels to take the brunt of attack while also trying to tarpit the enemy. If you get the double turn, Perfect! Your spears will take even less damage and be able to charge at higher strength in turn 3. If not, well, cross your fingers that they don't take too much damage until you get a chance to go, not much to do there besides hope your positioning works. You will do a lot less damage on this turn, but you will set up for...

3rd turn. Now your spears can charge again, and if you did it right are set up for another hard hitting turn. Charge in with nearly every hard hitter you got for a feeding frenzy, rip and tear, and look for what is the weakest unit in order to take it down in the next turn. Hit hard, and you will probably minimize casualties with the amount of wounds the enemy will take (usually)

4th turn: Arguably 2nd most important turn for us. We retreat, we charge again, and we finish off what we can or cap objectives we need. At this rate your army will be haggard, torn and bloody, but hopefully you will be able to work through it to end the game. Remember, even with one guy left in your spear squad you can get one more little push before it dies, or can cap an objective you need. Turn five, low tide, will help you stay safe. 

This is largely how I see these guys can play based off past experiences with blood knights, though again it's all theory craft so far. I see our army playing very similar to them though, and we need to worry more about re-rolling save units like a stardrake w/ mirror shield and lantern, or a thorn-Phoenix. 

___________________________________________________

if you cannot get the charge on turn 1, then only charge with the anvil units and maybe 1 squad of morsarr guard if you really need to, just to make sure the damage is up and going. Charge with the other during high tide and keep both units fighting through the turn.

 

Welp, hope that helps. 

 

BTW Dhom-hain for lief.

No forced spells / traits, activates on the charge where we want it, and gives us a better chance against monsters with our heavy hitters. It does not get rid of the golden turn of ebb tide for the slightly useless flood tide (my own opinion, I just love retreat and charging more than run and charge.) It's perfect for the style of army I would want.

[Hoseman]

I dont decide on enclaves yet, have to study more but the army I wanna make contains the allopex as I play with friends and dont need the more competitive list, and because of allopex is one of the most beautiful unit maybe in all AoS for me (Alarielle and eidolon are first), sadly the horrible eels are better (I really dont see anything beautiful in that model). Said that I would love to have an Idoneth competitive list but seems like that list is focused on thralls and I wanted more a monster army.

So my list will go with AoSea, King, soulrender, tidecaster, 20 thralls, 10 reavers, allopex and rest both kind of Eels. I discard allys because I love the look of this army.

 The thing I dont know jet is if Volturnos or King. Neither the enclave, maybe that one focusing on thralls or the other on charge for eels... 

[Austin]

3 hours ago, Nasnad said:

What enclave are people going to use? .. are aany of them standing out, or are they fairly balanced? .. or to depending on how you wanna play ?

I think they depend on what you want to play.  Mor'phann seems a standout for Namarti spam, Ionrach for allies shenanigans, Briomdar for movement insanity. 

I am tempted to go with a list like this:

Mor'phann Enclave

Akhelian King

Soulrender x2

Tidecaster

Namarti Thralls x30

Namarti Thralls x30

Namarti Thralls x30

Namarti Reavers x10

Namarti Reavers x10

Namarti Corps Warscroll Battalion

 

I think there is room to change up the list as long as you keep the enclave.  The enclave bonus lets your Soulrender rez 4 Thralls a turn vs 6 with the battalion bonus. I am not sure that is worth the 100pts or the second unit of Reavers tax. I would keep one unit of Reavers regardless for Tidecaster babysitting.

 

[mmimzie]

Having played more games no2 I don't honestly see the thrall argument of them being more comoetive. 

 

The main argument is that the morsar guard chwrge and then die to a counter attack.... ad if thrall don't do the same... but worse brcause they die alot faster than the eels and are more vulnerable to morale if not inspired. Meaning you can only really support 1 big unit of thralls.  Then having played with thrm. It's about as it seems if you really need to kill 1 target unit at the very most you'll get maybe 15 thrall in to attack. Meaning if your paying for 30, your only getting half the damage you paid for. 

 

The morrsarr on the other hand can get 11 of thier models in, and the other 2 have 2" range attacks on 2 out of 3 of thier profiles meaning you won't miss out on a single morrsarr attack.  Which also mean if you are angling for that turn 3 than the morsar can get buffed more effectiently as your putting thst buff into more pts worth of attacks.

 

 

Just look at the match up... because for some reason we've only ever looked at the match ups for morrsarr.

 

How do thrall deal with witch aelves when the aelves are more durable woth a 4+/5+  and the whole unit can get all 90 of thier attacks in to your 45. 

 

[Austin]

2 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Having played more games no2 I don't honestly see the thrall argument of them being more comoetive. 

 

The main argument is that the morsar guard chwrge and then die to a counter attack.... ad if thrall don't do the same... but worse brcause they die alot faster than the eels and are more vulnerable to morale if not inspired. Meaning you can only really support 1 big unit of thralls.  Then having played with thrm. It's about as it seems if you really need to kill 1 target unit at the very most you'll get maybe 15 thrall in to attack. Meaning if your paying for 30, your only getting half the damage you paid for. 

 

The morrsarr on the other hand can get 11 of thier models in, and the other 2 have 2" range attacks on 2 out of 3 of thier profiles meaning you won't miss out on a single morrsarr attack.  Which also mean if you are angling for that turn 3 than the morsar can get buffed more effectiently as your putting thst buff into more pts worth of attacks.

I don't really know which particular list is MORE competitive.  I think both have their pros and cons.  I don't know that I agree with the idea that you need to get 30 thralls into attack range or you are somehow losing out on their cost? The point of large units isn't that you can put them all into combat.  Also, I think it is clear that individual Thralls will die faster than eels.  But unless it is FAQed, you can be rezzing 4+ a turn per Soulrender even if you don't use the battalion benefit.  Put 2 or 3 Soulrenders in an army and that becomes an issue.

[mmimzie]

23 minutes ago, Caladancid said:

I don't really know which particular list is MORE competitive.  I think both have their pros and cons.  I don't know that I agree with the idea that you need to get 30 thralls into attack range or you are somehow losing out on their cost? The point of large units isn't that you can put them all into combat.  Also, I think it is clear that individual Thralls will die faster than eels.  But unless it is FAQed, you can be rezzing 4+ a turn per Soulrender even if you don't use the battalion benefit.  Put 2 or 3 Soulrenders in an army and that becomes an issue.

So the reason I day you need all 30 into attack range is because if your only getting 15 than you take the attack characteristic on thier sheet and you cut it in half. 

 

I think it is as you say you do need to bring the h3aling to make them really shine. As woth out the healing they are lack luster. 

 

Let's say we ally in witch elves. A block of 30 with buckles and compare them to our thralls. The witch aelves get 90 attacks and in the same area thralls get in 15 attacks witches get all 30. So in that comparison the witches are questionably more durable, and do more damage to almost all targets out side of maybe something with a 2+ save rerollable. 

 

So maybe with the fish man bringing them back to life they become a bit stronger even more so in namarti cote and with arcane shield support. 

 

However this is them not being so much a get and more of a bladed anvil.  Which makes the battalion seem the way to go if your gin a bring the namarti. 

[Austin]

4 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

So the reason I day you need all 30 into attack range is because if your only getting 15 than you take the attack characteristic on thier sheet and you cut it in half. 

 

I think it is as you say you do need to bring the h3aling to make them really shine. As woth out the healing they are lack luster. 

 

Let's say we ally in witch elves. A block of 30 with buckles and compare them to our thralls. The witch aelves get 90 attacks and in the same area thralls get in 15 attacks witches get all 30. So in that comparison the witches are questionably more durable, and do more damage to almost all targets out side of maybe something with a 2+ save rerollable. 

 

So maybe with the fish man bringing them back to life they become a bit stronger even more so in namarti cote and with arcane shield support. 

 

However this is them not being so much a get and more of a bladed anvil.  Which makes the battalion seem the way to go if your gin a bring the namarti. 

Yeah I definitely think the Thralls need healing to be worth using in large numbers.  It is an interesting decision because points go quickly in ID lists, or at least the ones I have been making so far.

[mmimzie]

On the discussion of which enclave to take 

 

I'd say if you wanna do really heavy allies or wizard ionrach is the way to go. 

 

Thrall armies wanna go morphan. 

 

Eel armies:

 

either fuethan for reroll 1s to wound for your mounts As likely you'll have a king to provide buffs. 

 

Or Nautilar to allow ishlaen guard to accept charges and get a buff over what the king provides. Plus the protective barrier spell is a devent spell on either an avatar or morrsarr guard. 

Or dhom-hain so you can charge away from the kings bubble on turn 3 and still keep the reroll 1s. 

 

[redphlannel]

What do you guys think are prime units for the Soulscryer to bring along? Is a Soulscryer even worth it?

I want to make a 1,000 pts of Akhelions to start, and it seems like Ishlean Guard brought in by the Scryer to tie down targets for Morrsarr to charge with the Scryer's bonus could be good. Or are Eels just so fast that a Tidecaster would be a better use of 100 points?

[Fukushim]

Can this work competitively?:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Dritchleech 
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
Branchwych (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Treesong
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
9 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (420)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
Alliance of Wood and Sea (140)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

[mmimzie]

4 minutes ago, Fukushim said:

Can this work competitively?:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Dritchleech 
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
Branchwych (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Treesong
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
9 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (420)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
Alliance of Wood and Sea (140)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

You can pick spells on the dumbest as you are alliegenve dumbest. 

 

I think I'd take vorpal maelstrom or something on the tidevaster you your list has alittle more bite to it. 

 

Your only real bike is big standard morrsarr, Thralls, and a tree lord none of which get buffs. It's not the end of the word. Instead those tool have to be used carefully. 

 

Is maybe drop the ishlaen to 6 and numb the morrsarr to 9. The morrsarr can chill put behind ypur dyrads and ishlaen for turn one and strike out turn to yo reliever punch.

 

I wouldn't reverse the tides as you don't have any units who'd take good advantage of the turn 2 high tide.  

[Hoseman]

Sadly I think ID will need some allys help for a fine competitive list. For me the core would be AoSea, King, Soulrender, Tidecaster, 10 thralls, 10 reavers (or 10 more thralls), morsarr, ishlaen, allopex (or 3 more ishlaen). There we have exactly 1600 points.

Now if u wanna go more defensive could use Eternal Guard, maybe with a Treelord Ancient to go objectives or drycha could help with his area attacks. Tree revenants are like 5 thralls with reroll a dice on each phase.

Some offensive fulminators or retributors with liberators could work too. Or azyros and Judicators for distance and liberators. Palladors + Neave for hunting from behind are nice too.

Maybe 10 heartrenders and 20 eternal guard could make a good work too.

 What do u guys think? Will ID love some allys?

[mmimzie]

24 minutes ago, redphlannel said:

What do you guys think are prime units for the Soulscryer to bring along? Is a Soulscryer even worth it?

I want to make a 1,000 pts of Akhelions to start, and it seems like Ishlean Guard brought in by the Scryer to tie down targets for Morrsarr to charge with the Scryer's bonus could be good. Or are Eels just so fast that a Tidecaster would be a better use of 100 points?

 Against what feels like common sense. It's actualy worth while to bring the fast eels into combat via the soul scryer. As the Eels can reroll thier charge distance, making that 6" charge more reliable than thier namarti brothers.  Only thing to worry about here is your ishlaen guard will be with out buffs and  thus will only be +4 ignoring rend on turn 2. 

Anywho for those interested this is my list after some play testing with thralls and proxy eels:
Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin - Enclave: Dhom-Hain
Leaders
Akhelian King (240) - General - Command Trait : Unstoppable Fury - Artefact : Potion of Hateful Frenzy
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440) - Lore of the Deeps : Abyssal Darkness
Isharann Tidecaster (100) - Lore of the Deeps : Arcane Corrasion
Isharann Tidecaster (100) - Lore of the Deeps : Steed of Tides
Units
9 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (420)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
9 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (480)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80) - Allies

2 boats

Total: 2000 / 2000

Realized 1 how cool khinerai heart renders are. Also realized i needed a butt protection ishlaen guard unit <.< becuase of heart renders. 

As realized i really like the chance of getting reroll to cast first turn on my edolan so the extra tide caster exist for that reason.  Basicly, i go for the tide of steeds to get the edolan up close and have the edolan cast abyssal darkness (rerolling) and Tsunami of terror (rerolling) Then have the tide caster with arcane corrasion cast mystic shield. If tide of steeds fails, then instead i have the edolan cast mystic shield, and instead have the tide caster drop a long range arcane corrasion.  THen the 9 man ishlaen guard units go in front of and behind the eidolon with the king and morrsarr coming up to hang out beside the eidolan. The tide cast then make for objectives. 

I really like tide of steeds. It lets you turn your heros into objective grabbers for clear objectives. Really nice late game. Morrsar and the king on high tide bring some serious pain. Kind of wish i could bring 12, but it feels like that would get unweidly x.x.

Only thing in the list i'm not sure about is enclave. Dhom-Hain lets me ditch the king and keep my rerolls. Where as Fuethan makes the ishlaen guard alittle more threatening when they get charged due to mount reroll 1's to wound. I guess where i'm at with it now i prefer Dhom-Hain because i really appreciate that turn 3 power stroke. 

[DantePQ]

I don't know I don't like betting everything on turn 3, just becasue it won't work against majority of top tier armies - Changehost doesn't care, Seraphons don't care, DoK will screen almost everything behind 30 Witches/SoS with Bucklers and Martyr's Sacrifice or tarpit with Morathi. Also how many big hitting units we will bring in by turn3 ? Morssar ? Maybe , Thralls ? Big maybe (unless we're talking about huge number of them) I still think army I came up with (Bromdar Thrall spam with Ascpet of the Sea) could be most dangerous. But I guess we will see  

[mmimzie]

20 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I don't know I don't like betting everything on turn 3, just becasue it won't work against majority of top tier armies - Changehost doesn't care, Seraphons don't care, DoK will screen almost everything behind 30 Witches/SoS with Bucklers and Martyr's Sacrifice or tarpit with Morathi. Also how many big hitting units we will bring in by turn3 ? Morssar ? Maybe , Thralls ? Big maybe (unless we're talking about huge number of them) I still think army I came up with (Bromdar Thrall spam with Ascpet of the Sea) could be most dangerous. But I guess we will see  

2 of my 4 test games were against daughters. The martyr's hurt abit <.< but the 9 man ishlaen guard unit kills that 30 man witch squad if they have martyr's on or not, and lives with like 5+ ishlaen guard.  When we tested we re did  key combats like that in the middle of the game. So like we had him roll his attacks 3 or 4 times to see how many ishlaen guard he kills and the opposite with my ishlaen guard fighitngg into his witches, and rolling the mortal wounds extra really doesn't kill enough stuff. While the ishlaen guard lay  into the witch elves. sooo <.<....  Morathi is a problem, but it's more a problem to be ignored i felt??  and having won both of the games on points pretty confidently. It felt quite good about that match up. At -1 and -2 to hit the Daughters really lack teeth. 

Then i had my buddy use my change host list, and we did some games. was definitly rough, but change host isn't about killing its about objective grabbing.  And as such it's very mission specific how the match up goes. He's not as good with my list as i am, but i was giving him pointers etc of what would be terrible for me. keeping the morrsar guard out of combat, but also some where where they could strike hard was tough. So we scrubbed the game, and i just shoved the morrsar down  his throat killing brims and blues as best i could. i lost by 2 pts or so. Really change host isn't a murder face list. It's most killing turn 1 or two with some mortal wound spell design to pick out key units, but if you take out the pinks and LoC you quickly find that change host is out of killy gas... and then realize that doesn't matter because the whole point of change host is that they are objectives all game, and you literally can't get them off. The most effective thing was vorpal maelstorm It's almost designed to mess up the splitting.  Hard to get it off in  that match up, so i guess i'm realizing now i should give that to the  AoSea instead of cover. that way  i can reroll that maelstrom, and then cast arcane coarsion from long distances to try to get around unbinding.  Reguardless we all know change host needs a nerf <.< and besides just obliterating the whole armie off the table, your not gonna stop them from scoring objectives every game. 


The last game was a boring victory against my death army that my buddy barrowed for that game. he was most experience with it. It's basicly what i wrote up in the list summary to the letter. You jsut turtle and stay even. Then kill stuff, and win by a few point. 

The thrall tarpit as i had said could be pretty good, but then you have to compare how it does against vulkites and death.  You can't realistic buff all your thralls in a way that really keeps them alive and your healing is only as much as you bring soul renders???  I think i woundn't go bromdar, i'd go morphan for more healing and bring more soul renders. Even rolling min rolls the soul renders each only have to  heal twice to be completely cost effective over just buying more thralls.  Charge your thralls in early and don't evenb go for fighting just tie up the enemy in weird combats they struggle to pile into effectively.   Don't think this works well against KO though, you might just get smashed by the shooting storm, and not  have enough surface area to punish them.